Torque Arms on Front Suspension Fork?

Joined
Nov 27, 2009
Messages
201
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
I have read several posts here concerning front hub motors and torque arms and realize that this may be opening an old can of worms but I have not seen anything specifically on a front hub motor on front suspension forks. Let's start a few months back. I purchased a front hub kit and installed it on a mountain bike with an RST 191 suspension fork. The kit is a 600W 36v WE BL-36 kit and seems to have a peak of 850W (according to the Watts Up). I have logged over 700 miles on this kit and have had no problems. I still have not installed a torque arm or washers for the quick release drop outs. I am creating a 48V pack and am now becoming concerned about spin out of the axle or even breaking the drop outs. Is this something to really worry about when we are talking about a new possible peak of 1200W? Is there a recommended torque arm and washer set that I should be looking at? Here are some pictures of the current set up. Sorry for the double post for those who have seen this in the EV General Discussion. I did not notice that I was not in the E-Bike area.
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I appreciate the future responses.
Dan
 
Well, torque arms are probably cheaper than new front teeth. :lol: Sorry couldn't resist.. :wink: It must be a good fit if it has stayed nice and tight for 700 mi. That said, 48 v will add some stress so at the least I would add some. Maybe a couple wrenches. The side without wires could even be a boxend. Then secure them to the fork with a couple hoseclamps each. Just don't let the wrenches being in the way stop you from removing them and checking torque once in a while.
 
Cold-E-Commuter,

That looks like AL to me, so you should change your username to "MrLucky". You're probably lighter than me, and your forks probably have a better alloy of AL than mine did, but mine lasted less than 10ft of my first ride before the dropouts snapped right off.

You've got plenty of extra axle, so please get yourself some nice thick torque arms. Since you have pics, the motor seems to already be off the bike, making the risk of failure much greater if you re-install without torque arms. Maybe this time you put slightly less torque on one of the nuts and the bit of extra force on the dropout results in failure. Or maybe this time you put slightly more torque on one of the nuts and put the metal under just a bit of stress that wasn't there before.

Seriously, I'm not being some worry wart grandma telling you that if the wheel is indeed off that you shouldn't put it back on without torque arms, because the risk is very real.
 
Mr lucky is right. Lotsa folks broke alloy forks in just a few rides, and others broke teeth or collarbones. Very often simply tightening the bolts cracks the dropouts without a filler washer under the nuts. Or the washer bends a bit, and the now loose nut allows the motor to snap the dropouts. Either way, 25 mph with no front wheel is no fun.

You really really really need to go to ebikes-ca and get some c washers to fill in the void in the quick release cups. Or just grind your own out of the torque washers from the kit. Once you have that spacer, it doesn't matter which torque arms, two, you choose as long as they fit. Some will only fit regular non suspension forks. The new design from ebikes-ca is real nice, but the ebike kit ones should work on alloy forks too.

Double torque arms will cost ya, but not as much as steel plates in your collarbones. Mine cost $15,000.

See the review section for some pix of my setup on alloy forks. One thread on the c washers and another on the arms.
 
Actually the forks are steel. I checked them with a magnet before even ordering the kit. All of the information that I read before hand indicated that aluminum was not satisfactory and I would have changed to a different fork if they had been or not even considered this bike as an option. That being said, I am still concerned about increasing the voltage and appreciate the responses. The torque arm at ebikes.ca looks like they should work for the current configuration.
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/photos/TorqArmRev3.jpg
and the washers
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/photos/SpaceWasher.jpg
Thanks,
Dan
 
Ahh, they look aluminum in the pics. You have that rare item, decent suspension forks with steel dropouts. I've seen a few, but they are rare. Nothihg wrong with adding a torque arm, but with the steel fork, one will be plenty. The c washers are great though, for filling that cup in th fork.
 
Has anyone considered tack welding the c washers to the forks for additional strength? I was thinking that a couple of tack welds that could easily be ground off might help with the strength by not allowing them to spin if for some reason the axle tried to spin and cut a groove in just the axle. This would effectivly give the drop out a larger face on the flat of the axle. Does that sound reasonable?
 
If you have a welder, you could simply fill the void with welding and then grind flat again. I forget who it was, but somebody here does that. With a thick dropout, torque arms might be redundant. On a steel fork, it's possible to really beef em up if you weld.

The c washers are great for making a torque arm work best on a quick release dropout if your forks are alloy, or you don't want to weld anything.
 
Ebikes.ca.... YOU ROCK! I ordered a torque arm and 2 C washers on Monday and Fed-Ex tried to deliver them today (Wednesday). Most vendors would still be processing the order. Unfortunately I was not home when Fed-Ex stopped by so I will have to wait until tommorow for the delivery. Still... Ebikes.ca has moved to the top of my list. I understand now why so many Endless-Sphere members recommend them. I will now be one of them.
 
Hello Dan,

I am using the RST 191 Suspension forks too with the same type motor you are using. the "600w" BL motor from WE. I chose the forks because they are made totally of CrMo steel and have some simple spring suspension. The drop outs are 6mm thick STEEL in capitals for those that might still think they are an aluminium or magnesium alloy. (check his pics again, that is nice tig welding holding it together) not a mag casting or alum weld job on these cheapies. Steel axle to CrMo fork is why you have 700 trouble free miles so far. The first forks I tried were T6 alloy and cracked quickly.

These cheap forks have a reputation for binding up easily and squeaking a lot as well, turn the bike up side down, undo the screw in the bottom of each fork completely, pull the forks off their shafts and apply a good dose of light GP marine grease, Vaseline or fork butter to all the sliding bits and seals and reassemble. Did it four years ago with the marine grease when I first noticed they might be dry, haven't done it again yet, tooo easy.

The motor axle on my hub (WE) had to be filed away a lot to accommodate the drop out shape ( I used a 5" angle grinder with a 1mm cut off wheel, that's a scalpel in my hands). The drop out wasn't nearly deep enough to centralise the axle in the lawyer lips for instance, also the long tang that stops the torque rotation was only 2.8 mm long along the axle and the drop out is 6mm thick, solution, grind the tang back along the large diameter of the axle so it has full 6mm engagement. That is the single mod I would most recommend when using forks that have a nice thick drop out.

I am not intending to add torque reinforcement until I have dial calliper evidence the drop outs are spreading. IF the drop outs do spread, I will probably weld a 6mm internal diameter by ~2mm wall thickness tube ~28mm long across the end of the offending drop out, then cut the tube to re-instate the axle slot. Once the axle is back in place, a 6mm Hi Tensile cap screw through the tube will stop it from spreading, provide clamping pressure if possible to the axle, and stop the hub motor from dropping out. If it is necessary and works as well as intended, I might do it to both sides.

The nuts that came with the motor were a typical mass production chee-po sloppy fit and there has been some discussion here they strip easily, I scrounged some Hi Tensile nuts the right thread from under a Nissan at the car wreckers, looks like they are used on the front suspension mounts. These nuts are a much better fit on the thread and even have a nice HI Tensile washer built into them. I can torque these up past the recommended 35Nm without any fear of stripping the threads. However, that washer does not fit into the "lawyers lips" on the drop out so I found some smaller OD washers and used those to fill the gap. I actually quite like the safety aspect of the lawyers lips, so next step is to get some car wheel nuts the right thread and spin them in the lathe if necessary to make one side fit into the lip recess nicely.

So far I have no intention of fitting torque arms where the engagement is so good and its good steel on good steel.

Battery pack is also going from 36v to 48v as I like the extra rpm too, Not going any further as more speed might attract blowflies. I have a 16 amp 240v domestic power circuit breaker in series as a battery isolator and so far it hasn't tripped in operation although if it does, I can fit a 20 amp and so on. The WE HD regen controller is "supposed" to be able to handle 50 amps 72v, I doubt 50A is a continuous rating and I think the caps may only be 63v, another reason to stop at 48v.

Alan
 
Great info and advice from Alan (pwrbkr31). Thanks. I love the idea of the welded tube across the bottom of the drop out with a nut and bolt connector. Wow, never would of thought of that. Cool stuff. There would be no way of the axle dropping off the bike plus this would also re-inforce the drop outs. I have to ask, do you need to strap down the forks so you don't get a fork in the eye when the pressure is released from the springs? If I am going to be injured it will be while riding, not modifying, hopefully! Anyway, the 4th battery arrived today and the 48V pack has been completed. The 2 test rides I managed to get in today resulted in :D . The difference between 36V and 48V is amazing! I will keep everyone posted as time travels.
 
I agree, if it is working stop worrying. I rode 5500 miles with no torque arms on steel suspension forks.

Now that I'm running on aluminum, the fitting got even more finicky. I did file a bunch of paint, and some metal from the sides of the dropout, and deepened them in the corners to accomodate the bigger radius of the motor axle. C washers filled the gap and double torque arms make me feel safe to ride. If I develop a crack, the wheel will stay on the bike I think.

I like the idea of welding a small tube to the bottom of the dropout. I'd like to see an aluminum suspension fork with some kind of bolt on steel dropout. I even toyed with the idea of welding a small bar across the dropouts at one point. If you weld and have a grinder, it would be a small thing to remove it to change a tire.

I just got my 48v ping. 48v is real nice and may spoil me fast! But I still have 4500 miles to go before I need to retire my 36v. That mileage may take me longer now that I can choose 48v. As soon as it's warm, I'll want to fly.
 
The rst 191 forks have the beefiest steel dropouts. Haven't seen them around anymore on the new bikes down at Target. There was a guy in here who put a x5 in one of those with no problems without torque arms. I think he had his current turned down though.
 
Well, the torque arm from ebikes.ca has been installed, easily I might add, and the c washers seem to make the fit even better. Thanks everyone for the advice. The problem now that I have the 48V pack up and running is legal. The CycleAnylist is next inline for install, when I get one. The last ride on the 48V pack produced a max of 1138.4 watts. I can also now cruise on the flat at 31mph with a current max downhill of 37mph. Here in Co they follow the Federal rules of 750W or 20mph. Bummer! Cruising at speed on a bike is a kick in the shorts! :D I can see how overiding the field of view can result a crash if you loose focus for even a moment. Bumps in the road are amplified with the tires at 60psi. Not to mention riding at night, what a rush. I think I am beginning to understand this websites existance the more experience I gain. This is addictive. Unfortunately it is snowing like a madman here right now and it may be another week before my next ride.
 
Dan,

About getting grease into the old RST forks. There are no safety precautions required. The forks are so simple that they are very reliable once they are well lubricated. Too simple for the wanky downhill guys so too bad for them.... The length of the screw thread does the preload holding and as they are being undone the preload diminishes without any shock. Just make sure they are wiped clean and there is a good dose of grease on the nylon slide tubes and the shafts, grease the internal lips of the dirt seal as well so it remains good. There is only about ~65mm or so of spring travel then a stopper cushion block but that is plenty for an ebike on pavement.

Real mtb wankers probably need to feel the bumps going up and down on the greasy shafts a bit further than that, stiff luck to them.

Alan
 
60 mm travel is plenty on pavement riding for sure. Too bad 99% of those steel suspension forks for the really cheap bikes are only 40 mm, and in use have about 20 mm that works. But for me, even that helps a lot for longer distance rides that create a lot more vibration on the hands than slower riding on pedalers. Even lame 20mm travel really helps the rims stay straight. Sure do enjoy the new bike though, with 4" of great suspension.
 
pwrbkr31 said:
Dan,

About getting grease into the old RST forks. There are no safety precautions required. The forks are so simple that they are very reliable once they are well lubricated. Too simple for the wanky downhill guys so too bad for them.... The length of the screw thread does the preload holding and as they are being undone the preload diminishes without any shock. Just make sure they are wiped clean and there is a good dose of grease on the nylon slide tubes and the shafts, grease the internal lips of the dirt seal as well so it remains good. There is only about ~65mm or so of spring travel then a stopper cushion block but that is plenty for an ebike on pavement.

Real mtb wankers probably need to feel the bumps going up and down on the greasy shafts a bit further than that, stiff luck to them.

Alan


They are called pogo sticks for a reason. They have no damping, and barely any travel. That's why mtb wankers don't like them, they are shit.
 
True. My new bike for pedaling on the badass trails had a blown rear shock. With 100 mm travel on the rear wheel and no damping at all, it could just about launch me out of the saddle on a curb hop. This new bike has short suspension so it can climb better. With my cheapo bikes, riding in the street, pogo was not a problem since the extra weight on the bike would leave it with only 20 mm of usable travel.

As I am getting used to my new ebike on the Giant FS bike, I found that the suspension needs to be carefullly balanced fore and aft after putting all that weight of batteries on the rear. Too soft on the rear suspension made the front shocks stop moving. After a few rides I tried a stiffer setting on the rear and suddenly the front shocks started to work great. Obvious stuff to the more experienced rider I suppose, but it wasn't that obvious at first to me.

The point of the above comment is, the same fork may behave very different on different bikes, or different loading of bikes. Suddenly I understand the occasional posts FS bike review pages. Lots of love it posts, and then out of the blue one says the front fork sucks. Probobally has the bike way out of tune on the test ride.
 
Those are steel, if that is what you are asking about, You can tell by the way the welded on dropouts look. The drops are positioned to the inside too, which means there is room for a motor. Usually these are 40 mm travel. Safe to run a front hub on in my opinion.

Again, a nice find of this type on 1 1/8"steer tube. Usually these are found on 1" cheapie frames.
 
The thing with running the hub motor in the suspension fork is how long will it last before it takes out the bushings. Mine has developed a very small amount of bushing play but its only when compressed to its normal riding height with me on it. So right now there is no play at rest or when its compressed heavily. Its basically a throw-away fork. I'd say it might last 10k miles. This is for a Marz supercomp fork now renamed to I forgot what its called now let me check.....Its a Marz 22 RLO now. Steel steer tube, stanchions, but alum lowers dropouts. The dropouts are kind of small. I beefed them up.
 
Like the way you used the disk mounts to secure the tourqe arm. That oughta do it.
 
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