Tried to start a car with Headway pack today

[Doctorbass]

My integra is running on 4s4p A123 cells since the begining of winter. That pack is continuously balanced with my little Blinky Balancer ( known from RC users) that balance at 70mA. No LVC OR HVC cut... just balance continusly.
This pack is parallelled to my original 12 years old 55Ah Honda battery that just can't succed starting my car at temp below zero celsius. assuming that my balancer would work 100% time and bleeding 100% time the cell that's 70mA for 9.2Ah of battery meaning that it would take 131 hours to empty the battery.. but it never happen..
I see the battery balance sometime with the LED blinking. It happen when i open a door of the car, with the roof light glowing and draining few mA making a little change on the battery surface voltage... or during temperature change or as well when the car alternator is working... otherwise no balancing happen.

Since i connected this A123 pack the car start like a new and the voltage average is 1.5V higher!

I noticed a great difference on the car performance and it start at ANY temperature.

Like i said it is directly connected to the original battery.. no doide in serie.. no complicated stuff... and the alternator is a honda 90A 14V and the A123 battery have no difficult to take his part of the charge current.

That work surprizingly well!!!

I also have my Phoenix gold old school M44 amplifier that i push very loud draining around 45A that before the A123 install was making my head beam nearly flashing with the beat of a good song... Now problem is solved!.. The headbeam are very stable now.... no capacitor need.. just 9.2Ah of A123 cells in parallel !.. after all that's near 500A burst capability just for this 1.2kg battery!


so Yess.. a 90A 14V alternator work very well with 9.2Ah of A123 LiFePo4 battery.

Doc

 

[TylerDurden]

70mA for 9.2Ah of battery

+55Ah PbA?

 

[Doctorbass]

The best exemple is this video i did 2 years ago:

4s 1p in jumpstart a fully depleated 55Ah Honda battery... at -20 celsius!

yes the A123 battery became warm.. but was under the damaging limit for heat....

for sure it would loose maybe let say 50mAh each boost i do with.. but who care.. my car start after all !


[youtube]qcvmvrmTMMk[/youtube]

 

[Doctorbass]

70mA for 9.2Ah of battery

+55Ah PbA?

yes.. you are right.. but that very old 55Ah probably have under 10Ah now. that rise the time to around 250-300 hours before thebattery is fully depleated...
just perfect

 

[bigmoose]

I have strong interest in this thread as I try to keep the 9 IC engines that I service for my family starting in all seasons here in the north of USA. Keep the successes, tips and failures coming. The key issues is safety and survivability of the selected Li chemistry with the stock alternator/charging system, and the type of BMS required.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

A few companies market packs using similar cells as dedicated lightweight motorcycle packs, but they are expensive. There's no reason why a pack with a fairly simple set of shunt regulators plus an onboard charge controller shouldn't work OK when driven by the bikes charging system though.

I'm doing something sort of similar with the big 12V LiFePO4 pack on my boat, except with four 50 watt solar panels as the charge source. The main snag is that ideally the charge input needs to be separated from the discharge connections from the battery. Not really a problem, and there are ways to get around it, but it does make things a lot simpler if the power from the bike alternator can be fed to separate charge connections on the pack battery management system.

Take a look at the (admittedly very long) BMS thread for some ideas as to how to do this. Essentially you need shunt regulators across each cell and a charge current limiter that is triggered by any of the cell shunts going active. If your bike has a separately excited alternators, rather than a permanent magnet one, then it might be possible to adapt the alternator controller to automatically limit charge current when any cell reaches the cut off voltage, like a car alternator does. Alternatively, just limiting the maximum charge voltage on the bike regulator might be OK on it's own, it depends on whether or not the bike regulator is up to it (some bikes have very crude voltage regulation, nowhere near as good as that on a car).

Discharge will be limited with the Headways to around 20C, as that's as much as the "power" version of these cells (the 8 Ah 38120P version) will reasonably deliver. If the Headways you have access to are the standard 10Ah 38120 versions then the max discharge current is lower, around 10C. It depends on the CCA requirement of the bike as to whether or not this sort of current capability will be OK. I'd have said it'd be fine for smaller cylinder capacity, multicylinder, bikes but might struggle with a high capacity single or twin. If you currently only have a 7Ah SLA as a starter battery, then I'd say that your CCA requirement is going to be pretty low, maybe around 100A max, so even the standard Headways would probably be OK.

A DIY approach is possible, but requires a bit of work to find out how your bikes charging system works, whether it's regulator has a decent cut-off voltage and whether or not it's maximum charge rate is acceptable. None of it is that complex once you've got your head around some of the key points.

Jeremy

 

[Jeremy Harris]

My integra is running on 4s4p A123 cells since the begining of winter. That pack is continuously balanced with my little Blinky Balancer ( known from RC users) that balance at 70mA. No LVC OR HVC cut... just balance continusly.
This pack is parallelled to my original 12 years old 55Ah Honda battery that just can't succed starting my car at temp below zero celsius. assuming that my balancer would work 100% time and bleeding 100% time the cell that's 70mA for 9.2Ah of battery meaning that it would take 131 hours to empty the battery.. but it never happen..
I see the battery balance sometime with the LED blinking. It happen when i open a door of the car, with the roof light glowing and draining few mA making a little change on the battery surface voltage... or during temperature change or as well when the car alternator is working... otherwise no balancing happen.

Since i connected this A123 pack the car start like a new and the voltage average is 1.5V higher!

I noticed a great difference on the car performance and it start at ANY temperature.

Like i said it is directly connected to the original battery.. no doide in serie.. no complicated stuff... and the alternator is a honda 90A 14V and the A123 battery have no difficult to take his part of the charge current.

That work surprizingly well!!!

I also have my Phoenix gold old school M44 amplifier that i push very loud draining around 45A that before the A123 install was making my head beam nearly flashing with the beat of a good song... Now problem is solved!.. The headbeam are very stable now.... no capacitor need.. just 9.2Ah of A123 cells in parallel !.. after all that's near 500A burst capability just for this 1.2kg battery!


so Yess.. a 90A 14V alternator work very well with 9.2Ah of A123 LiFePo4 battery.

Doc

This works because you still have the original battery in parallel, I think. The lead acid terminal voltage will be around 14.5V on charge, which is OK for the A123s as it is around 3.625V per cell, close to ideal for charging.

Bike alternators often don't have such good voltage regulation though, they often seem to rely on having a low current output and high winding resistance to limit the battery voltage to safe levels, something that sort of works for lead acid but not for LiFePO4. An off load permanent magnet bike alternator can produce pretty high voltages unless the regulator works well, often up to 60 to 70V or so.

Jeremy

 

[Spacey]

Ok,

I am up for this challenge. Due to my job I have to be a trustworthy type fellow so don't worry your battery will be safe in my hands.

I will let the farmer know as he is actually interested in purchasing this type of battery for his landrover, and I will record the whole thing with HD video Camera for all to see on here.

Should be interesting in the name of science for sure. Will PM my address. (I love real life tests rather than theorising...getting quite excited by this test).

Mods, can we stop Amin persistently infiltrating threads about other batteries just to market his battery crap, please? I'm well and truly fed up with him spouting BS on threads that are totally unrelated to the products he's pushing.
Jeremy

This thread was all about Spacey not being able to start his Landrover and I explained this was because the HW cell he is using is an energy cell rather than a power cell type.

You use the temperature argument. I don't care if it is 0 degrees or 40 degrees, all I am saying is the LiFeTech cells will have far more discharge/cranking power than the Headway cell under the same conditions.

I have a good idea which I am sure will make Spacey happy.
I am willing to supply Spacey with an 8 cell X1P engine starting battery to try out on his Landrover to see if it has enough cranking power.
If it has the power to crank over the engine I will be happy to pay for the cost of the cells plus shipping.
If it performs no better than the Headway cells and can't crank the engine then I propose that you pay the cost of the cells plus shipping (I will send you an invoice).
That way Jeremy you can "put your money where your mouth is" and so if you are wrong then Spacey will be happy with a good car starting battery.
If I am found to be wrong and the LiFeTech battery has the same or lower starting power than the Headway battery then I bear the full cost.
Of course both batteries need to be tested side by side starting the engine so we can all see the difference (if any).
It can't be a fairer challenge than that.

The video should be fun to watch no matter what the result!

I have seen enough of these batteries to see what they can do. I supplied two of these only a few weeks ago to an aircraft owner for a couple of his aeroplanes and he is very happy with the engine starting performance for his aircraft compared with his original lead acid cranking battery.
The battery starting my Subaru was a test before I shipped this battery to Italy where it was used as a motorcycle starting battery to start an 1100cc Aprilia motorbike owned by a guy who was sick of his Odessey battery not having enough cranking power in sub zero temperatures in the middle of winter in the alps in Italy. The bike owner is extremely happy with the battery performance and I figure the 8 cell (twice the power) LiFeTech battery will be able to start the Landrover better than the Headway battery.

 

[TylerDurden]

I am up for this challenge.

Heads I win, Tails you lose...

hArmin sends you bad cells and you (or Jeremy) pay?

Bad deal.

A loaner-pack for test might be a better idea.

 

[liveforphysics]

The power cell versions of headways (the "P") cells, and the power versions of the BMI cells (X1P) both are able to deliver a hell of a lot more current than the energy versions. They have around 50% of the Ri of the energy versions. My guess is that they have a good shot at getting the job done.

Incidently, that means in applications where loaded voltage sag is >30%, the user would get equal useful energy from an 8Ah cell as a 10Ah cell.

 

[Spacey]

Hmmm did not read everything in this thread as am at work and reading from mobile, I assumed he would send out cells to test as an advert/proof of his cells ability. I do not want to buy just 4 expensive cells to test this.....at his expense sure I will do th etest and document it on here with a video. Have sent my details to him though so shall see if we can get this test rolling.

I did use 2 x parallel cells of the 12ah energy Headway cells so surely this would have compensated for the ability of using non paralleled 8ah Power Headways as in just 4 cells.

I am up for this challenge.

Heads I win, Tails you lose...

hArmin sends you bad cells and you (or Jeremy) pay?

Bad deal.

A loaner-pack for test might be a better idea.

 

[dnmun]

you should avoid modifying his vehicle unless you can assume financial responsibility. i doubt if a release would work since the lawyers could show you had prior knowledge. the charging system on his car is set up to charge a lead acid battery and you will take on a lot of risk if you modify that. even though you may not own much, they will file anyway since the insurance company will refuse to pay.

 

[Spacey]

Am in UK so worst that would happen is that I would have to fix the old lapped out land rover worth no more than £400, anyhow replacing the car battery with lifpo4 just seems like far to much hassle. Wasn't even going to make a profit on it, was just genuinely interested in helping someone out and seeing if it would actually work.

Still up for the psi batt challenge though.

 

[texaspyro]

I just fear they might overcharge and go boom...right under my ass!

Hey, people pay good money to go to a gym and work their massive asses off... might was well get it done in one quick KAPOW!

 

[liveforphysics]

you should avoid modifying his vehicle unless you can assume financial responsibility. i doubt if a release would work since the lawyers could show you had prior knowledge. the charging system on his car is set up to charge a lead acid battery and you will take on a lot of risk if you modify that. even though you may not own much, they will file anyway since the insurance company will refuse to pay.

What are you proposing would need to be insured to replace? Absolute freakishly worst case scenario, a burned up alternator and ECU? That's <$200 in parts and an hour or two of easy work to replace.

 

[texaspyro]

The nice thing about LiFePO cells is that if you keep their voltage under 3.45V per cell (A123 float charge spec) you can't overcharge them. They just stop drawing current (try that with NiCd/NiMH and see what happens ). Should be no problem at all with a good electronic voltage regulator on the vehicle. You could probably get by with 3.6V per cell, but they say to stop charging at this voltage when the current falls below 50 mA). You should use some sort of cell balancer to make sure that differences in the cells does not lead to one cell blocking the others from charging.

Keep their voltage above 2V per cell and all is well and shiny. The way you kill them is to overdischarge them when they are series connected in a pack and you get voltage reversal on one or more cells. I have found that you can discharge a single A123 cell to 0 volts and have it survive with little or no detectable damage (but this is seriously not recommended).

 

[Jeremy Harris]

you should avoid modifying his vehicle unless you can assume financial responsibility. i doubt if a release would work since the lawyers could show you had prior knowledge. the charging system on his car is set up to charge a lead acid battery and you will take on a lot of risk if you modify that. even though you may not own much, they will file anyway since the insurance company will refuse to pay.

What are you proposing would need to be insured to replace? Absolute freakishly worst case scenario, a burned up alternator and ECU? That's <$200 in parts and an hour or two of easy work to replace.

First off, there's no such things as a release, or a hold-harmless agreement, in the UK, they aren't lawful here. If you do something, or omit to do something, and harm results you're liable - there's no way to get out of it.

Secondly, this is an (old) 2.2l diesel Landrover 4x4. I doubt that it's ever seen an ECU. We're talking mechanical indirect injection diesel, with glow plugs that work from a big contactor and a Lucas alternator with the crudest voltage regulator you've ever seen (reliable though)......................

This thing will suck battery power like there's no tomorrow on a cold start, so I have doubts as to whether a 4S battery pack made from cells like the PSI or Power Headway that can only deliver around 240A or so will hack it, particularly in the winter.

A 4S, 2P, Headway pack, made from the 38120P cells, would probably do it, as that'd up the current capability to around the minimum needed to crank this engine.

Jeremy

 

[liveforphysics]

So, there is essentially zero risk.

Sounds to me like it's time to give it a shot.

We know a pocket-sized nano-tech pack can do it, but nobody wants the challenge of making LiCoO2 safe to be a direct lead replacement.

LiFePO4 makes a perfect direct lead replacement, so if they can work in this fairly extreme starting example, then it opens doors to many folks looking to end winter engine starting woes. I say lets go forward with the test, and lets watch some lithium have a go at a very difficult starting situation.

I think 10 starts in a row with that cold diesel engine with a cold pack freezing weather would back up some BMI claims, and I would love to see it work out.


Realistically though, the arrangement should be something where if the BMI pack performs as claimed, the user buys it at the pre-determined price including the cost of shipping to the UK. If the BMI pack doesn't work as claimed, BMI pays shipping to return the un-purchased pack.

 

[Hillhater]

I am willing to supply Spacey with an 8 cell X1P engine starting battery to try out on his Landrover to see if it has enough cranking power.
If it has the power to crank over the engine I will be happy to pay for the cost of the cells plus shipping.
If it performs no better than the Headway cells and can't crank the engine then I propose that you pay the cost of the cells plus shipping (I will send you an invoice).
That way Jeremy you can "put your money where your mouth is" and so if you are wrong then Spacey will be happy with a good car starting battery.
If I am found to be wrong and the LiFeTech battery has the same or lower starting power than the Headway battery then I bear the full cost.
.

Looks like BMI has offered to pay for the batt's either way ..success or fail !! :lol: :lol:

 

[TylerDurden]

You are ignoring the doublespeak:

"If it performs no better than the Headway cells and can't crank the engine then I propose that you pay the cost of the cells plus shipping (I will send you an invoice)."

If I were hArmin, I'd send you duff cells, say you damaged them before shooting the video and demand you pay.


The simple solution is for hArmin to load test the cells on video and upload it to youtube.

 

[texaspyro]

One issue to consider is LiFePO output sag when cold. The SERIOUSLY drop off when cold. See the plot about half way down the first post in my thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20698&hilit=and+other+effects#p301558 They also sag quite a bit in voltage under heavy loads.

Doc started his car 20 times in -20C weather. But had the pack been sitting out overnight in that weather, the results might have been different. Especially if he had been cranking a diesel with a 1P pack. Once the pack warms up then it starts cookin' with gas...

On the subject of warming batteries... there is an "arctic" adapter for military night vision goggles powered by lithium cells. The cell is mounted in a holder on the end of a cable. The other end screws into the goggle's battery compartment. You stick the battery end under your clothing (armpit) to keep it warm. The battery end is nice and rounded and smooth and of a certain size and shape. Serious badass dudes in serious badass weather have been known to stick it somewhere really warm and cozy where the sun don't shine.

 

[liveforphysics]

The simple solution is for hArmin to load test the cells on video and upload it to youtube.

That would never work bro. You buy one of those load testers, and simply file/grind the shunt a bit so it reads 50%, 100% 200% higher or whatever you want to make something look like it reads.

 

[BMI]

Calm down guys.

BTT:Is there any experience about charging LiFePo4 round cells (4s) with a car alternator / motorcycle reg/rec?

What do you call "experience"? I have had my BMI 12V 20Ah LiFePO4 battery in my work car (6 cylinder Toyota Camry wagon) for two and a half years already starting the car several times a day without any problems what so ever. It provides lighting engine starts every time. It was installed in June 2008. This is the battery pictured below which the factory used to manufacture as a dedicated car start battery (hence the car mounting bracket).

I had a customer in Germany who wanted to buy one of these batteries. When I asked him what sort of car it was for he told me it was for his new red Corvette with a huge engine. I am no car expert but he told me the engine was something like 6 litres capacity. I replied saying that the battery would not be powerful enough for such a huge engine and recommended he NOT buy the battery. The customer wanted to buy the battery anyway and said he would take all responsibility if it didn't start. Anyway a few weeks later the customer sent me some photos along with an email thanking me for the battery. He sent me a photo of him standing next to his pride and joy giving me the "thumbs up". I was amazed!!
At times even my own products surprise me how good they are and I strive to tell the truth at all times. What is the point of lying about the performance and then the customer feels let down and is unhappy? My honestly and good name means everything to me. If I was a liar and told un-truths about battery performance do you really think I would have been responsible for several years for the battery requirements (supply, install and maintenance) of critical data centre UPS systems for IBM, Apple Computer, GE, Coca-Cola, McDonalds....and several others)

Of course then there is Jeremy who is quite willing to "knock" a product with out having used it or tested it himself. I feel it says a lot about him as a person.
I think a battery that can start a large Corvette engine would also be able to start an old Landrover engine.
If I honestly didn't think my LiFeTech battery could not start the Landrover I wouldn't make such a claim....after all my name is not Don Harmon.
View attachment Corvette in Germany with BMI LiFePO4.JPG View attachment BMI LiFePO4 Fuel Saving Battery.JPG

 

[BMI]

One issue to consider is LiFePO output sag when cold. The SERIOUSLY drop off when cold. See the plot about half way down the first post in my thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20698&hilit=and+other+effects#p301558 They also sag quite a bit in voltage under heavy loads.
Doc started his car 20 times in -20C weather. But had the pack been sitting out overnight in that weather, the results might have been different. Especially if he had been cranking a diesel with a 1P pack. Once the pack warms up then it starts cookin' with gas...

Sure, currently available LiFePO4 batteries are not the best for cold conditions because they were never designed for this.

In the next few months I will have a new cell available which is designed especially for use in sub zero temperatures. This cell is being designed to operate at temperatures down to -40 degrees C. It is being developed to the requirements of a specific application at the request of a customer.
I will post the data sheet if you like as soon as I receive it.

 

[TylerDurden]

A pampered 'vette won't pull near the current a diesel will.

Vette = 9:1
Rover = 20:1

Plus, diesels need to spin at a higher rpm to light-off.


"name is not Don Harmon"...
Might as well be.