Vacation in America

[Teh Stork]

I’m just home from 10 days in Orlando, Florida. Went on vacation after working like mad for the last half year. I went with my GF and experiencing USA was different from what I expected it to be.

Firstly, cars everywhere! Holy shit, crossing the street is easier in a car, then on foot. We rented a Nissan Altima. Coming from Norway, where straight roads are rare – driving on American roads was entirely the opposite. I strongly disliked the Nissan from the start. Long response time on throttle and suspension like a “water-bed” is the exact opposite of what I’m used to.

At home I own and drive a 2013 VW E-UP. 160 km electric range, fantastic city driving properties and clings to the road like a salamander. The Nissan was a different car indeed, but eventually it grew on me, on the hwy it was comfortable and silent. Fuel was cheap, but in comparison my electric is significantly cheaper pr km.

Ebikes! I did not see one, and I clearly understand why. The car has priority. There were some bicycles, maybe 1 per 10000 cars.
We came for the Disney parks and visited all four parks. I was amazed at the sheer size of the logistics at Disney, and the efficient crowd control. The rides and attractions (Wishes was #1) was very nice. We went to Universal studios too, loved the animatronics and rides.

Food was mixed, but overall very satisfied. Ate a lot at subways, dominos and longhorn steak house. Mcdonalds was ok. Tried Taco Bell, was prepared for horrible food – got horrible food, yuck. I imagined Americans to be fatter, but I would say Norway and USA is not that different in body sizes.

Next visit I want to go to a shooting range and a top fuel drag-strip event.

All in all, the trip has got me pondering the implications of society more than I imagined beforehand.

 

[dnmun]

imagine how those of us who have to live in this mass hole of consumption feel about it.

did you get a chance to talk to any of the tea party republicans about how they want to stop our guvment from doing anything but conducting international wars of conquest and occupation and put the poor out on the streets?

then you will have an idea of what real culture is.

bicycles in this country are there for cars to run over while the driver finishes their texting.

 

[markz]

imagine how those of us who have to live in this mass hole of consumption feel about it.

did you get a chance to talk to any of the tea party republicans about how they want to stop our guvment from doing anything but conducting international wars of conquest and occupation and put the poor out on the streets?

then you will have an idea of what real culture is.

bicycles in this country are there for cars to run over while the driver finishes their texting.

So true. The consumerism of North America in general is sad. The hurry up and wait at a red light mentallity mind boggling. To walk around every day and almost get hit by a vehicle everyday isnt a good feeling for the pedestrain. I think if cops were to enforce the laws, insteading of power tripping and eating donuts, perhaps people will get a clue after they recieve a $2000 ticket for not waiting untilt he pedestrain has FULLY crossed the street. I see cops breaking the very laws their are sworn to uphold. Not fully stopping at a stop sign, distracted driving law by use of computer console in cruiser, city breaks their own bylaws by not shovelling the snow off their sidewalks, not cutting their own grass, but yet the homeowners have to or else they get a ticket. This is what I think should happen, especially with snow and lawns. 1st offense lets say is $150, 2nd offense lets say $250, 3rd $1000, 4th $5000, then it doubles....goes straight to your land tax, you do not pay within a year, say buh bye to your house! Bylaw officers should patrol the streets with an eagle eye. Your car is away from the curb, bam $100, $250, $500, then doubles. You dont pay, you dont drive until you pay. Like child maintenance, dui, no insurance etc. Perhaps in the future drones can scour the streets to give out tickets that are then mailed to you. Maybe behind every street sign will have a speed detector, no complete stops ticketed, speeding ticketed, following to closely ticketed, weaving ticketed, not waiting for pedestrians ticketed. Ideally I think this is what should happen. Then everyone who breaks the laws so many times, buh bye your taking the bus, have fun!

 

[dnmun]

the cars run over you if you are on the sidewalk and there was a little girl run over in her front yard 70' off the roadway last year.

in last 2 years here, 4 people run over on the sidewalk, one on the opposite side of the road even.

i have never seen anyone prosecuted for running over bicyclists here, ever.

it is unusual when they find the guys who hit and run over bicyclists. usually it is late at night and no witnesses so the driver just leaves without stopping and leave the injured bicyclist in the ditch to die.

that is why i am worried about that guy tom who was doing the bicycle trip around the country and we have not heard from him in more than two weeks.

 

[Kent]

Thanks for sharing your trip and turning us on to the VW Electric.

Could you post some photos of the battery pack and drive-train? That would be great.

Yes the traditional North American and European car cultures have always been quite different. North Americans have always favored the rolling living room with no road feel with a soft suspension. Europeans like it taut with good handling.

Many Americans carry quite a bit of anger and frustration just below the surface. They keep voting in a another round of criminals and expect positive change. There is no doubt that the society as a whole is over due for a major upgrade. Here's hoping that it won't be an economic collapse, third world war or an expanding police state that will make it happen.

But we still have many freedoms. One is being able to hot rod down our streets and highways in unregistered, souped up e-bikes. Apparently if you tried that in some European Countries your bike will be seized and you will be arrested.

 

[arkmundi]

.... All in all, the trip has got me pondering the implications of society more than I imagined beforehand.

We definitely need a culture change. There are lots of people who have written books about it. My favorite is James Howard Kunstler who wrote The Long Emergency among others. From A Reflection on Cities of the Future

All this is to say that the suburban rings of our cities have poor prospects in the future. They therefore represent a massive tragic misinvestment, perhaps the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of the world. It is hard to say how this stuff might be reused or retrofitted, if at all, but some of it, perhaps a lot, may end up as a combined salvage yard and sheer ruin.

My prescription: live in the urban core of a dense, diverse, walkable city (like Worcester is), go car-free, and ride a combo of eBike and mass-transit. Abandon the suburbs and let them be returned to the wilds & farming. The double tragedy of our culture to where I live is that so much valuable farm land was lost as the suburbs expanded outwards. The excuse I get from so many people wanting to keep their car-driving habits, even those who, like me, are climate protection advocates, is inevitably tied to where they live, usually the suburbs, and managing the necessities of life, job & home. To be car-free, one has to choose carefully where one resides.

 

[The fingers]

Visitors I have met usually tell me that our favorite word is "wow".

 

[Hillhater]

But we still have many freedoms. One is being able to hot rod down our streets and highways in unregistered, souped up e-bikes. Apparently if you tried that in some European Countries your bike will be seized and you will be arrested.

Oh yes !.. some representative groups ( pedal cyclists, pedestrians, motorists, police etc etc) already see "power assisted" bikes as being akin to Hells Angles ! Ebikes are only slightly less despised than the petrol powered versions, with ridiculous power limits, "pedalec" requirement, and proposed registration with insurance requirement being proposed.
Reality is each group,.. pedestrians, cyclists, Ebikers, motorists, motorbikers, etc...all have some beef about the other groups !
..and the cops just work everyone over ! ( yes even pedestrians for jay walking etc !)

 

[markz]

Its the north american way, consumerism and over-abundance. All you have to do is go to the nearest mall and see speeders in the parking lot, running over peoples feet and bodies, in order to get the best deal. It makes me sick. I was a victim of just that. Some lady was turning right, looking left and my foot is still hurt from that incident. She was all sorry at first, then when the paramedics came she blamed I was on my phone, however I was 3/4 of the way across the crosswalk. That is a straight up $2500 fine under the traffic safety act, plus I should have gotten a cool $10k from her insurance.

 

[dogman dan]

One could say you just took a tour of the worst of the USA. Don't get me wrong, plastic Disney is fun as hell, and an experience to enjoy.

I'm just saying that the roads of Florida don't represent all of the USA. If you want some interesting driving, come back some time and drive to the big western National Parks. I can assure you that the roads in Colorado, Utah, or northern New Mexico and Arizona are not a boring drive. And out west, a few less people per square mile than Orlando for sure, until you enter the park, then the same crowd. While in NM, you can get some real southwestern food. You can't get a fresh green chile relleno at taco bell.

As for the car, after driving an electric car awhile, I bet you'd find the throttle response of a turbo Subaru impressa slow. Could have been worse, at least you didn't rent a ford focus.

 

[Teh Stork]

This is going to be a long post.

imagine how those of us who have to live in this mass hole of consumption feel about it.

did you get a chance to talk to any of the tea party republicans about how they want to stop our guvment from doing anything but conducting international wars of conquest and occupation and put the poor out on the streets?

then you will have an idea of what real culture is.

bicycles in this country are there for cars to run over while the driver finishes their texting.

Compared to USA, Norway is by no means radically different when it comes to consumption. Luckily "bad" consumption is facing strong opposittion. For example, Norwegian law states that things that should last more than 5 years, should last 5 years - no exeptions. The consumer is the powerful one, not the buisniess. If my ASUS laptop dies today, after three years use - the dealer is legally obligated to give me the same product or similar. (Same goes for phones, tv's etc). However, we are "hooked" on planned obsolecense and there is a saying that there is no consumer that is more predictable than the Norwegian one.

I did not really have any "deep" conversations with any american. (And frankly discussing major party politics is futile)

Thanks for sharing your trip and turning us on to the VW Electric.

Could you post some photos of the battery pack and drive-train? That would be great.

Yes the traditional North American and European car cultures have always been quite different. North Americans have always favored the rolling living room with no road feel with a soft suspension. Europeans like it taut with good handling.

Many Americans carry quite a bit of anger and frustration just below the surface. They keep voting in a another round of criminals and expect positive change. There is no doubt that the society as a whole is over due for a major upgrade. Here's hoping that it won't be an economic collapse, third world war or an expanding police state that will make it happen.

But we still have many freedoms. One is being able to hot rod down our streets and highways in unregistered, souped up e-bikes. Apparently if you tried that in some European Countries your bike will be seized and you will be arrested.

[youtube]ZymlqWxwqNI[/youtube]
The E-UP is great and really a "stoplight-killer". Off the line the acceleration is hard to match with combustion cars. The weight of the car is 1150 kg and has a electric motor that is capable of 60kW. Max phase amps is 385A and battery voltage is ~296-408V. 18kWh battery. 160km range summer, 120 km range winter. 8 year battery warranty. Price here in Norway is ~26 000 USD.

You can see high-res photos of the drivetrain here.

As per this date, Norwegian officials has publicly stated that they do not have any funds or plans to prosecute anyone driving a non-legal ebike. With integrity, you do have freedom.

*Snip*
My prescription: live in the urban core of a dense, diverse, walkable city (like Worcester is), go car-free, and ride a combo of eBike and mass-transit. Abandon the suburbs and let them be returned to the wilds & farming. *snip*

I'll look into those reads. As for your perscription, this closely resembles the writing of Kjell A Nordström. Especially Karaoke Capitalism: Daring to Be Different in a Copycat World is a very good read. (I've also been to some of his speeches, allways interesting). Spoiler: In the future, we will not identify ourselves as 200 countries, but 600 cities. These cities will host 80% of the worlds population. This is 2035.

But we still have many freedoms. One is being able to hot rod down our streets and highways in unregistered, souped up e-bikes. Apparently if you tried that in some European Countries your bike will be seized and you will be arrested.

Oh yes !.. some representative groups ( pedal cyclists, pedestrians, motorists, police etc etc) already see "power assisted" bikes as being akin to Hells Angles ! Ebikes are only slightly less despised than the petrol powered versions, with ridiculous power limits, "pedalec" requirement, and proposed registration with insurance requirement being proposed.
Reality is each group,.. pedestrians, cyclists, Ebikers, motorists, motorbikers, etc...all have some beef about the other groups !
..and the cops just work everyone over ! ( yes even pedestrians for jay walking etc !)

From the outside observer, I can see how this looks true. And, to a certain degree - it is. Norwegian roads and driving are much more aggressive than american driving. Come here, you'd be surprised. Go to Belgium, they're even more aggressive. But also person to person, we norwegians (and scandinavians) have something called "jantelov". Read more here. (We actually study jantelov in school). Lets try a spoiler.

Spoiler

There are ten rules in the law as defined by Sandemose, all expressive of variations on a single theme and usually referred to as a homogeneous unit: You are not to think you're anyone special or that you're better than us.
The ten rules state:
You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.
You're not to think you are good at anything.
You're not to laugh at us.
You're not to think anyone cares about you.
You're not to think you can teach us anything.
These ten principles or commandments are often claimed to form the "Jante's Shield" of the Scandinavian people.
In the book, the Janters who transgress this unwritten 'law' are regarded with suspicion and some hostility, as it goes against the town's communal desire to preserve harmony, social stability and uniformity.
An eleventh rule recognised in the novel as 'the penal code of Jante' is:
Perhaps you don't think we know a few things about you?

One could say you just took a tour of the worst of the USA. Don't get me wrong, plastic Disney is fun as hell, and an experience to enjoy.

I agree.

I'm just saying that the roads of Florida don't represent all of the USA. If you want some interesting driving, come back some time and drive to the big western National Parks. I can assure you that the roads in Colorado, Utah, or northern New Mexico and Arizona are not a boring drive. And out west, a few less people per square mile than Orlando for sure, until you enter the park, then the same crowd. While in NM, you can get some real southwestern food. You can't get a fresh green chile relleno at taco bell.

I've been thinking of driving route 66, would you reccomend it? (Comes highly reccomended from a friend).

Probably missed something, off to work

 

[arkmundi]

With regards to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante: Just as Ayn Rand popularized the supremacy of Individuality in books like Atlas Shrugged here in America. The phenomena of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation repudiated, that human progress is largely due to genius at work. Capitalism has succeeded, however, because a few became adept at manipulating the human herd. Our innate instinct for social inclusion as liability for exploitation. Only the upper crust of the 1% are free to be individuals as the rest of us are relegated to menial work in factories where uniqueness is eschewed for the higher productivity enabled by fitting in. We're in deep trouble....
[youtube]lrter-qgh1o[/youtube]

 

[dogman dan]

What remains of old 66 can be kitchy cool. In some stretches, efforts have been made to preserve the 50's era motor court hotels, with their neon signs and cement stucco teepees.

The particularly interesting section starts just East of Albuquerque, and you can exit off I 40 to see parts of old 66 as you make your way towards the Grand Canyon. The route goes through Navajo and Hopi country, passing by lots of scenery you have seen in a John Ford directed John Wayne movie. VERY scenic, all through the rest of New Mexico, and all of northern Arizona. Driving either I 40, or taking the old 66 side routes is a very scenic drive past the red standstone rocks so famous in the Hollywood westerns. Definitely the scenic way to the Grand Canyon is by flying to Albuquerque, vs Phoenix. But from Phoenix it's not bad, passing through Sedona, also famous for the red sandstone.

But if you want to drive through some scenic mountain roads in a better handling car, turn north to Colorado, and drive through the loop through Durango, Silverton, etc. Ride the narrow gage railroad in Durango for sure!, then circle back south through Telluride, finishing off at Mesa Verde Natl Park to see the Anazasi cliff dwelling ruins.

Each corner of the US is very unique, and the "real usa". But since I was born and lived my whole life in the Rocky mountain west, I do tend to like it best. Santa Fe NM aint what it used to be, crowded up with plastic people now. But the mountains remain as awesome as ever. Always amazing to think what it must have been like, in 15 0r 1600, to have been the first Spanish explorers through that terrain, with no roads at all. Tough hombres those guys. Not to mention the Ute Indians that lived there for centuries after the Anazasi left the area around 1300.

 

[The fingers]

Ultimate cool 8) and wow would be to travel the old route 66 in an early Corvette.

 

[izeman]

...But since I was born and lived my whole life in the Rocky mountain west, I do tend to like it best. Santa Fe NM aint what it used to be, crowded up with plastic people now. But the mountains remain as awesome as ever....

as you mentioned the rocky mountains. when i passed them the first time (which was like 20 years ago) i was really excited driving down the long straight roads waiting for the big mountains to come. i waited and drove, drove and waited. after some time we looked at the map (no sat nav that time *ggg*) and my friend said to me: i guess we already passed it.
i was expecting something like mountains here in austria like the alps. steep winding roads which a lot of serpentines and challenging to drive. road that can't be mastered by trucks as soon as snow falls. but no. nothing like that. that (and those masses of REALLY BIG people) was the most disturbing fact about the usa.
but i can only say the best about the people. so open and friendly. sure. only a very small percentage even knew that austria existed (schwarzenegger who was terminator at that time still did help) but everyone was polite and helpful. it's so much different over here.
and i love your food culture. i had some of my nicest meals there. so many influences from all over the world. and burgers are only "real" in the us. same goes for steak. you can find some really great steaks here, but nothing beat you steaks

 

[arkmundi]

Having grown up in flat Houston, Tx with a dad who discovered skiing, I came to love mountains and yea, something about majesty, awesomeness. So when I graduated from high school, took off on my grand hitch-hiking adventure and saw those sights, less the snow. Through Texas to New Mexico, then up through Colorado, to Wyoming. Had a gig in Wyoming and the Grand Tetons, where a friend of a friend was building a log cabin in the mountains. Base camp as I hiked the wilderness. Then straight back to Houston for College. I've got that engram and had intended to do it again, albeit with a vehicle. And then.... well.... hmmm... Anyway, of that extent of the rockies, loved the Grand Tetons the best.

 

[Ch00paKabrA]

The ten rules state:
You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.
You're not to think you are good at anything.
You're not to laugh at us.
You're not to think anyone cares about you.
You're not to think you can teach us anything.
These ten principles or commandments are often claimed to form the "Jante's Shield" of the Scandinavian people.
In the book, the Janters who transgress this unwritten 'law' are regarded with suspicion and some hostility, as it goes against the town's communal desire to preserve harmony, social stability and uniformity.
An eleventh rule recognised in the novel as 'the penal code of Jante' is:
Perhaps you don't think we know a few things about you?[/spoiler]

Normally I am a live and let live, respect other peoples culture but this is like the most horrible thing I have heard. Do you really tell your children this? If a parent did this here, Child protective services would be there in a heart beat to take the kid away.

Sorry man, but I just broke rule #8. It is a sad laugh too.

 

[Teh Stork]

Normally I am a live and let live, respect other peoples culture but this is like the most horrible thing I have heard. Do you really tell your children this? If a parent did this here, Child protective services would be there in a heart beat to take the kid away.

Sorry man, but I just broke rule #8. It is a sad laugh too.

No, this is not "teached" in any way. But as said, we do study it in school. The rules are a description of the problem, not liferules we live by.

"Janteloven" just is there, it's not something we actively pursue. Like the dark side of the moon, you can't see it, but you know it is there.

I could knock on my neighbours door and ask for 1000 dollars, my neighbour would lend me those money. I could deliver an analysis of "jantelov", the good and the bad, but reading a book on the subject is better if you want to understand.

As an american, you're very multicultural. Norwegian population is not, we're homogenous (This is changing). As for immigration and respect for other cultures, you find examples of both tolerance and intolerance.

Edit: This topic is taking a turn for "other toxic discussions"

 

[Eskimo]

We have inverse Jante"s law. You are only allowed to be a liberal and express liberal thoughts only. Everybody is so freaking individualist liberal that there is no common ground anymore to share thoughts with other people. I do recognize what you mean by that Jante"s law, we were like that thirty years ago. People are plain afraid to express any kind of conservative views in public, or on the internet with their own name. Things are getting more and more up side down each day to how they used to be. Russia is financing nationalists in France and elsewhere, because their home banks refuse all loans to patriotic parties. Only way to run a patriotic party is to make Russia finance it, now there"s EU for you. Liberals now are so victory-blinded that pretty soon i think conservatives and Russians will find each other politically. Now that is a paradox, but that"s what"s gonna happen with this liberal EU-zeitgeist. In Norway you are still allowed to wave your flag without people calling you a nazi. Enjoy while it lasts. Here nobody is buying flagpoles anymore on their new yard. "who needs flags!", they say. Marxist culture paradigm meets liberal capitalism. Rant over :wink:
Florida was extremely hot and humid when i was there in "88. You really do need those air coolers down there. Nice pictures.

 

[dogman dan]

Obviously didn't drive Emory pass from Hillsboro to Silver City NM. Nor to Silverton CO. If you do want to see the rockies, you can't stay on the interstate. If you drove through the South Pass route, you avoided all mountains. If you drove through Denver, you should have seen something, but again took a route avoiding as much as possible.

Try to make it to the peak of any of those mountains in Colorado, and you'll find hiking at twice the altitude of the European alps is the challenge. Ski off a lift at 12,000 feet, and take on a double black diamond run someday. It is harder with no O's. Take the dirt road from Lake Valley to Silverton, you better have the very best 4x4. If it's June, the road will still be snowed in.

They have done what they can to reduce the carnage on the roads. Wolf Creek pass in southern CO was once notoriously deadly in winter, and deadly to trucks anytime. Now it's quite tame. But there are still some damn fun roads out there. Just follow the motorcycles, they'll take you to the fun ones.

That route south from Telluride is very fun if you drive it right after a big snow, and follow your route with the book open that shows all the slide paths, and how many died at each one.

Here's a pic of the short, insignificant, nearly unheard of rocky mountains in my backyard. Pipsqueak hills only 9,000 ft high, the shot is taken from about 4 miles from my house, at 5000 foot. It was great fun rock climbing in those when I was young.

 

[izeman]

thanks. you confirmed my imagination i had of the rockies. there must be more than what we experienced on the interstate. good to know.
today i would drive other routes for sure. at that time the mountains where not the goal, they where just passed.

 

[Ch00paKabrA]

I like to keep an open mind. I am going to read the book that Arkmundi posted a picture of. If I can't find it at the library, I will buy it. It is just a 180 of a turn in mind set for me. Over here, we focus on what makes us unique, I guess it is different in your country.

I am glad you liked your vacation though. Florida is fun. I have 2 rental properties down there. One of them is in Celebration, FL which is a subdivision that was started by Disney. When it is vacant, I will use it to vacation as well but it is usually occupied in the vacation season. Lots of fun, though a bit expensive.

Its too bad I didn't know you were going before hand. If you were in the area of Disney, then Gatorland is just a short distance away and it is really a fun place. Smaller than Disney but a lot less crowded and there are thousands of alligators. Maybe next time.

Did you eat some alligator meat? It is actually very good.

 

[dnmun]

and it just gets bigger and better as you go north up the rockies. i recommend the silverton durango railroad too, and go up the Dolores river to the high passes under Engineer mountain, all the mountain ranges going north, san juans, never summer range west of me, up to the Tetons. highest i ever got was to 13,400 on Square Top and even more than the oxygen deficit you can feel the UV of the sun because there is so much less atmosphere to filter it.

the rockies push straight up out of the middle of the continent and the granite shield of earth crust is pushed up on the east side as it comes up out of the sandstone in eastern colorado where i live. there is a granite slab in my yard that starts about 100' underground at the front of the lot and comes out of the ground about 200' higher and 500' farther back on my lot. it is called the Flatirons in Boulder, but that is the defining structure on the entire front range, what we call the eastern face of the rockies. so i have billion year old rock face in my back yard.

 

[arkmundi]

Something, something about the rocky road ahead looking at pictures of the Rockies, haaha. Something more about how those mountains are formed by tectonic shifts. About the tectonic shift away from capitalism to the kind of economic paradigm described by the likes of Naomi Klein, David Korten, Joanna Macy, Howard Zinn, Van Jones, Majora Carter and many others. Ecological Economics is the academic discipline of it. Also more humane and socially just. That trek won't be easy. But ahh, the view!

 

[Teh Stork]

I am going to read the book that Arkmundi posted a picture of. If I can't find it at the library, I will buy it. It is just a 180 of a turn in mind set for me. Over here, we focus on what makes us unique, I guess it is different in your country.

Its too bad I didn't know you were going before hand. If you were in the area of Disney, then Gatorland is just a short distance away and it is really a fun place. Smaller than Disney but a lot less crowded and there are thousands of alligators. Maybe next time.

We actually planned to go to Gatorland, but didn't manage to fit it in - definitely looks like a fun place.

"Misery Harbour" for those of you that prefer film over books.