Vacuum forming

agniusm

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I don't know how much it is relevant here but still some might find it helpful. So i stumbled on ytube on this vid on vaccum forming and thought i will make one for myself. All parts use on the machine i had laying around. i only purchased oven heating element 3000W for about 25USD and some 3mm sheet steel ~5USD. The hardest part is to drill hundreds of holes. I still think i needed to space them out 10mm apart not 20m.
It takes sheets of plastic sized 650mm x 450mm. Made an adapter plate to fit smaller peaces as well not to scrap lots of plastic on small jobs, size 340mm x 240mm
Here is what came out:
IMG_20130120_181120.jpg

IMG_20130120_181047.jpg

These pics from partly done machine. i am uploading some vids on my first tests in forming. Used 3mm PP plastic.

Vid 1
[youtube]SIpotcZzD-c[/youtube]

Vid 2
[youtube]sbol6J8nGe0[/youtube]
 
Video says private. Need to make it public access, somehow ??
 
Here's a generic youtube on vacuum forming. You heat a certain type of plastic film that is suspended in an air-sealed frame, then place it over the vacuum base. Looks fun, once the shape is formed and cooled, I suppose it can be strengthened by adding fiberglas/carbon-fiber? Good way to mass-produce a complex shape...Hmmmm (*scratches chin while staring off into the distance...)

The link is for the 8:00 mark, the box on the right is just a common electric room heater that's boxed-in so the rising heat warms the plastic film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maH5Ech0wK8#t=8m00

[youtube]maH5Ech0wK8#t=8m00[/youtube]
 
To vacuum form, you first need a vacuum. I have several home vacuums people have given me I intend to use for that and for a bench that'll suck up the fumes. Once built, they need a place to be kept, hence I'm waiting until I'm sure I'll use them.

A real vacuum former will either raise the mold to the sheet plastic or lower the sheet to the mold. Homemade units never seem to deal with that, so this will lower the quality.

One thing that might work better for you is rotocasting with thermoset resin. You can make a hollow part by moving the resin around in the mold while it cures. A little more expensive, but you can make thick walled parts that are harder to come by with a vacuum mold.

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-Your-Own-Prototypes-%3a-How-to-make-your/http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-Your-Own-Prototypes-%3a-How-to-make-your/

http://www.instructables.com/id/Vacuum-Former-2/

http://www.instructables.com/id/Ruth-the-5-vacuum-former/

http://www.instructables.com/id/My-vacuum-former/

http://www.instructables.com/id/Lasercut-Vacuum-Former-with-hinged-sizer/

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Vacuum-Former-Box-30/

http://www.instructables.com/id/Demystified-Vacuum-Forming-2/

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-good%2c-cheap%2c-upgradeable-sheet-plastic-vacu/
 
Dauntless said:
A real vacuum former will either raise the mold to the sheet plastic or lower the sheet to the mold. Homemade units never seem to deal with that, so this will lower the quality.

One thing that might work better for you is rotocasting with thermoset resin.

Me don't thinks that there is huge difference in method u apply your plastic to the mold in resulting quality. Quality of formed plastic is governed by quality of the mold, plastic used and thickness i think. People on ytube vids are using thin sheets of plastic which i think forms better than heavy stuff. I have used Polypropylene PP when testing. Perhaps Polystyrene PS or ABS or HIPS would form better?!

Rotocasting is a mess.
 
Rotocasting is THE way so many parts are made. Most simple, most inexpensive, therefore most popular. Use polyurethane and you can have a much more durable part than you'll manage from vacuum forming.

Quality of formed plastic is governed by much more than you've mentioned, or vacuum forming wouldn't even exist. You can try drape forming and see if it manages to fit itself around the mold. Vacuum forming while sucking the plastic down to the mold risks all sorts of distortion.

Because of the low forming temperature polystyrene is the most vacuum friendly plastic. And the least durable, ever wonder why they put yogurt in PS containers and not orange juice? Because citrus fruits DIGEST PS, like a slow working acetone.
 
Probably there are many ways in forming plastic and all you say is irrelevant or does not help anybody. This thread is about vacuum forming thermoplastics as there was no threads about it on ES as far as i searched and this could be helpful to many on their DIY projects.
Advice, knowledge and expertise is always welcome regarding molds, materials, techniques.
I am not interested in drape forming, rotoforming or other. Plastic properties could be found on wiki, there is no need to be a smartass with visual examples. There is no need to compare diy and industrial machines.
On that note here is wiki page on thermoplastics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoplastic
 
I used to have a pre-built vacuform machine, with bed about 18"x24" or something like that. Been years since I last saw it after loaning it to a friend. :(

Anyway, as part of the "lid" (when closed for storage) that opened to lay to the side (for use) it had what amounted to a clothes-dryer heating element curled up within a steel reflector with a low-velocity induction-motor fan with metal blades/etc., used to circulate the heat around to more evenly melt the plastic sheet.

The clamping frame (of 1/8" steel) for teh plastic sheet to be formed was along the same piano-hinge as the lid, so it could be easily flipped from the heating bed to the forming bed.

The forming bed (also the main base of the machine) had a vacuum motor in it that was about the same as a good shop vac. Enough power to dim the lights even more than the heating element did. :)

It had holes about every half inch or so, IIRC.

The idea was to heat the plastic till it just began to sag int eh middle, then simultaneously flip the switch over to vacuum from heat, and flip the plastic-holding frame over to the forming bed over whatever mold you've got there; the vacuum sucks down plastic and frame (the idea is to turn on the vacuum just soon enough so it spins up and is sucking air just at the moment the outer edge of the frame begins to touch the forming bed frame--too soon and the wind cools the plastic, too late and the mold cools the plastic).

It always helped to pre-warm molds in the oven, when possible.



I also once used a compressor in reverse to suck al the air out of a tank, wiht a release valve between it and the bed, instead of the vacuum motor. I forget the negative pressure I got it to (not sure if I even knew), but the idea was to do the same as the above, except flip the release valve on the tank instead of turning on the vacuum motor. It worked better with sharper detail but th forming bed wasn't sealed well enough to hold the vacuum well for pieces that required continued heating with a gun.


I've also seen air-hockey tables converted into forming beds.



My best molds were plaster, because I could get a fair bit of detail in them, and they could easily be preheated in an oven to pretty high temperatures. I only have one picture I know of from that technique; I didn't have a camera back when I was doing my physical model building, so all the pics I have are either from much later when I finally got a junky digicam (like this pic) or taken by other people in various situations.

VacuVoyager1.JPG




EDIT: also meant to say that whether VF is appropriate for your part depends on what you want to use it for. It does work pretty well for stuff like the models above, though you still have to scratchbuild all the sharp-edged stuff onto it, or scribe the lines on. Worked great for handheld props like tricorders and some weapons, or storage cases and the like. Not so great for stuff that needs a lot of detail in it to start with.


Also, as pointed out, polystyrene is the easiest to use but is not all that durable for a lot of things. I never successfully VFd any other kind of plastic, though ti should be possible to do some of them with sufficient heat and strong enough vacuum, which I ddn't really ahve. Read about a lot of ways to do stuff but most of them I never had a chance to try.

Saw a huge VF machine at I think it was Laird Plastics south of downtown Phoenix, 4x8foot bed! They used a huge heater hanging over the bed to heat huge sheets of up to 1/4" lexan, polystyrene, ABS, plexiglass, etc., and the bed could do either positive or negative molds (which replaced the usual flat bed of holes and instead had the holes itself, down in the lowest places and in all the details that were to stick out. One negative mold they had in a corner was for a big pre-lettered sign, to go over a fluorescent-lightbox fixture on a storefront.
 
I just bought a big sheet of .060" hi-impact polystyrene that I'm going to use to form a belt drive cover for my bike. I'm planning to use use my oven to heat up the plastic in a wood frame. The only problem is that my oven has no window to see when the plastic is sagging :?
Do any of you experienced vacuum-formers have tips on how long to heat the plastic before you pull it?
 
agniusm said:
Probably there are many ways in forming plastic and all you say is irrelevant or does not help anybody. This thread is about vacuum forming thermoplastics

Actually it's highly relevant and helps anyone looking to actually do something. Discussing includes the DOWN SIDE.

there is no need to be a smartass with visual examples.

That would explain why I wasn't being one. The question is, WHY ARE YOU BEING ONE????

There is no need to compare diy and industrial machines.

Yes there is, because, as you've previously confessed, this IS a thread about vacuum forming. Now that all THAT has been corrected. . . .

fizzit said:
Do any of you experienced vacuum-formers have tips on how long to heat the plastic before you pull it?

Polystyrene is the lowest forming temperature, it'll be quickest. Time will depend entirely on your heating element, machine to machine. You're just going to have to get a feel for it. ALL the vacuum forming I've ever done has been on machines without a window, just flipping the lid up for a second or two to look. Polystyrene has been known to sag from the glare reflecting off windows of tall buildings onto cars in the shade with exposed polystyrene parts, laser like. What makes polystyrene so cheap and easy to work with also makes it so chintzy.

But I don't think you should put it in your oven. Polystyrene can be MADE food safe but you don't know that what you bought is. This is drape forming you're taking about, I'd say you'd want it under 200 degrees.

amberwolf said:
It had holes about every half inch or so, IIRC.

It always helped to pre-warm molds in the oven, when possible.

That's interesting, I've never heated a mold. Working in the shop when it was 55 degrees and so was the plaster. Used clay, which will hold the detail better when it's cooler. Detroit clay you heat to shape it and when it's room temp again it's very solid and durable. Oil base only, I doubt waterbase would survive wet or dry. But I'd only use clay for a "Male" mold, sticking up, etc. Dished might be fine but I didn't want to try it. Better to flash it and make plaster.

In school my teachers said I was way to aggressive with the holes, but I never had them every half inch. The more holes, the better your chances of getting the detail. Depending on the depth, 5-10 more holes only took a minute.

You never tried to get your vacuum former back? If I had a toy like that missing. . . .
 
fizzit said:
Do any of you experienced vacuum-formers have tips on how long to heat the plastic before you pull it?
Depends on the kind of machine. With mine, where you had to flip the frame from heater to forming bed, you'd wait till the plastic began to sag all the way up to the edges, or until the middle was sagging too far and was going to burn thru, and then you'd flip it over to the forming bed and engage. Actual time varied with thickness, so I never timed it but just watched it. After a while you just kinda "knew" it was ready to drop.

Dauntless said:
That's interesting, I've never heated a mold. Working in the shop when it was 55 degrees and so was the plaster.
I guess it depends on how good your vacuum is; mine wasnt' all that great (until I tried the reverse-compressor), and I didn't have a heat gun till way later, so the preheating the molds in the oven was the best option. I still never had really great results, but I am far from an expert at the process (or pretty much anything else I do). :oops:


Used clay, which will hold the detail better when it's cooler. Detroit clay you heat to shape it and when it's room temp again it's very solid and durable. Oil base only, I doubt waterbase would survive wet or dry. But I'd only use clay for a "Male" mold, sticking up, etc. Dished might be fine but I didn't want to try it. Better to flash it and make plaster.
FWIW, it's also easy to make a detailed plaster mold in a doublestep process from a basic clay mold.

1-- I used to use "plasticine" or whatever it's called, that typical oily modelling clay kids use, to make my basic mold,
2-- then I'd stick that on the forming bed,
3-- suck some thin plastic over that.
4-- Then while on the bed, after cooling, make a few support frames over that out of more clay,
5-- then pull the whole thing off the bed, frames first, setting them in a wood box the same size as the bed.
6-- Peel off the thin plastic fom the clay mold,
7-- then stick it down onto the frames in the box.

Make sure it's sitting flat/square in there, then pour plaster into the plastic. Wait till it hardens, then pull it out and start working out the detail on it.

Alternately you can use this to make a negative mold for sharper details, by leaving out steps 4 6 and 7. Instead, for step 5 you put the mold and plastic down into that box, mold/flat side down. Then pour the plaster over that, wait till it hardens, pull off the plastic/mold clay (often easier if you dig out the clay and then cut the plastic to pull it off). and detail it and then drill holes in the lowest parts and recessed details for air to exit thru.

Problem with neg molds on my machine was I had to fasten the "mold box" to the top of the built-in bed so that it put the neg-mold "bed" at 90 degrees to the heater, instead of the 180 the build-in bed was. Then duct tape plastic from that to the bed's sides so the vacuum will still suck air from the neg-mold. It didn't work all that well, but the other things I tried worked less well. I really needed to detach the vacuum and orig bed from the heater and frame but I never got that far before loaning it out (which I only did because I hardly ever used it at that time, being too busy with life/work).


In school my teachers said I was way to aggressive with the holes, but I never had them every half inch. The more holes, the better your chances of getting the detail. Depending on the depth, 5-10 more holes only took a minute.
Mine was just however the machine came. I used the same hole density on negative molds.

You never tried to get your vacuum former back? If I had a toy like that missing. . . .
Yeah, I did, but I lost track of him and dunno where he is anymore. I stopped worrying about it years ago. Was one more hobby I didnt' have time for (at least the main use I had for it, sci fi props and models; these days I can think of a few other uses, but I could build one from junk now).
 
This thread is timely as I have begun a new phase of fairing-building using HDPE. Bending, scoring, localized heat treatment with the heat gun, punching, and even stitching… but I’ve yet to try vacuum forming. About a month ago I ran some tests using an oven – starting at 170°F and observing the deformation over Pyrex cookware (inheritably a non-stick surface). I slowly raised the temp up to 190°F when the plastic stage became apparent but not to the drip-level. It was a good experiment with lots of potential and has me thinking of a great DIY vacuum method with gravity assist.

For precision holes, I suggest using perforated steel. It just so happens I have a stash of 1/16 thick SSL left over from crafting a false bottom for my mash tun (for brewing). :wink: A shop-vac or perhaps a varistor-controlled fan could provide enough suction. Next is the shape of the custom part, and that’s where I pause because the items I want to make are rather complex 3D surfaces: I might toy with using Balsa, but the clay option sure seems fun – and inert. :)

Appreciate the melding of minds on this one though. Good stuff.
Thanks, KF
 
I used to have one of these things when I was a kid:
vacuform-front-of-box.jpg

I miss the days of dangerous toys and chemistry sets you could make pyrotechnics with.

Polyethylene forms well, and I suspect PVC is pretty good too. Polycarbonate is hard, but I've seen it done.
 
Plasticene and plastilena are softer oil based clay that are easier for a lot of things, but not good for detail or durable. Chavant makes the good hard stuff they make the fullsize mockup of cars with.

http://www.chavant.com/

Industrial Design Clays

Hard Styling Clays (Standard)

CM-50: A "medium hard", dark brown formulation, considered the softest of the Hard Styling Clays.
J-525: A "hard" light brown formulation.
CM-70: An "extra hard" dark brown formulation.

Hard Styling Clays (DeAired)
These "extremely hard" formulations are the firmest of Chavant's Hard Styling Clays. Entrapped air is removed making the clay more dense, smoother and ideal for achieving fine extrusions.

DeAired CM-50
DeAired J-525
DeAired CM-70
P-40:
SULFUR FREE. The hardest styling clay we produce that can be melted and poured. P-40 has a reduced working temperature requirement (115°). Higher wax concentration provides greater resistance to model cracks. Available in brown (natural color variations may exist in P-40).
I-307:
Reduced sulfur content and reduced working temperature requirement (120°). Higher wax concentration provides greater resistance to model cracks. Hard but softer than I-305.

J-88:
is an extremely hard clay that is often carved. It is used for high detail applications such as medallion making, jewelry design and figurine development. Available in Gray-Green only.
 
Gave my vacuum former a coat of 800C paint, fitted thermostat properly. Got some 2mm PP sheets for testing but still need to make proper mold before i start doing something. I found another use for this machine. i will try and get my A123 kits soldered with brass nuts. Shouldn't be too hard an i hope it will work:
20130311_174002

20130311_173958

Perhaps will get a temp gauge at some point.
This is the jig i will use for soldering nuts to PCB's:
20130311_152457
 
Nice build. I had a chance to use a commercial vacuum former to build some body panels for my ebike, here's the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atedXWOl0fM

Something that might be helpful for you is using blocks to eat up excess material. You see those triangle blocks in the vid? Those were for areas where I was getting funny folds or excess material. By putting the blocks in there, it stretches the waste on the sides more so that it doesn't affect my final panel.
 
Vacuum forming is pretty awesome. I keep on thinking of using vacuum forming to make the pieces I'd need for a velomobile prototype, maybe someday : ).
 
Thinking of using Styrene to create a copy of a physical piece. Thought about the heat gun approach and came across this DIY method that did a good job explaining the pros and cons of various approaches:

[youtube]maH5Ech0wK8[/youtube]

Pretty fun example; no fiddling about. Can't imagine what that room smells like though.
~KF
 
Very great video as far as vacuum forming methods goes, thanks for sharing.

Something I think isn't seen as important as it is is the cleanliness of the air you breathe. Personally, if I was doing that with a garage door completely open or even outside, I'd still wear a p100 respirator with a good seal. I've seen so many people grinding and sanding away at all kinds of materials and painted surfaces without a respirator, if only they knew. Safety is a very big deal to myself, when many think of safety, they think of physical safety, what we breathe is a very big deal.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AR63G12/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00AR63G12&linkCode=as2&tag=almar01-20 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009POIG9Y/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B009POIG9Y&linkCode=as2&tag=almar01-20 I highly recommend using this setup any time you might be doing anything that causes pollution in your local environment, especially when it involves surface friction.

These filters come sealed in plastic, when you open a pair, it would be wise to put the other pair into a sealed bag. Filters such as these will slowly pick up junk in the air over time otherwise.

That technique he used in vacuum forming seemed like an extremely cost effective and potentially easily scaled way to vacuum form. I've seen a lot of people use some sort of guide for placing the plastic onto the mold, perhaps some poles to act as a guide and some bubble levels to make sure it's lowered evenly, or maybe even a rigid platform would do well. I don't know how important it is that the plastic be lowered evenly over the mold, but I can imagine missing the center of the platform to be a bad thing to do. I have no experience in vacuum forming though, so maybe it's just fine to be imperfect in your vacuum forming plastic shaping endeavors. I wonder how this technique works out if the area you are doing the vacuum forming in is very cold (well below freezing). Maybe it just takes longer to heat up the plastic.
 
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