Want to Increase Speed, but maximize range
- Thread starter broloch
- Start date
dogman dan
1 PW
The best way to increase speed and maximise range would be to minimize wind resistance.
However you increase your speed, the drag increases at higher speeds is the real problem. Increasing your volts should increase the size of your battery pack, so that will help give you some range, even if the watthour per mile goes down. To get the range back, you need to go recumbent, and maybe use a fairing.
Back to the actual question you asked, increasing the voltage is the best way to increase top speed. Increasing current can increase speed too, but usually a significant increase in current does not affect top speed that much, unless you are having voltage sag that gets fixed by having a bettery battery. Speed up a hill will increase with an increase in current, but not that much increase in top speed on flat ground.
Not sure if I said that in a way that makes sense. What I mean is, if your 48v battery is not sagging when you hit throttle, more amps will not make the top speed faster. It will make you reach top speed faster. If your 48v battery saggs to 40v when you run the motor, then a higher current battery,( larger battery or better discharge rate battery) that maintains 48v when the motor runs would be faster.
In general, if you want speed and long range you just have to throw a lot of money at the problem, like buy 20 amp hours of 72v headway batteries and a huge controller to go with it. That gives you a no voltage sag 72v battery with lots of capacity. 60-80 pounds of lithium would be likely to get you 40-50 miles at high speeds for an e bike. Should cost ya around $3000.
The way I got high speed and long range was to buy a gasoline scooter for $700 used, that goes 60 mph for 80 miles on a tank of gas costing three bucks. It just made more sense than building a high speed e bike. My range on my ebike, with two batteries can be in the 40-60 mile ballpark, but not very fast.
However you increase your speed, the drag increases at higher speeds is the real problem. Increasing your volts should increase the size of your battery pack, so that will help give you some range, even if the watthour per mile goes down. To get the range back, you need to go recumbent, and maybe use a fairing.
Back to the actual question you asked, increasing the voltage is the best way to increase top speed. Increasing current can increase speed too, but usually a significant increase in current does not affect top speed that much, unless you are having voltage sag that gets fixed by having a bettery battery. Speed up a hill will increase with an increase in current, but not that much increase in top speed on flat ground.
Not sure if I said that in a way that makes sense. What I mean is, if your 48v battery is not sagging when you hit throttle, more amps will not make the top speed faster. It will make you reach top speed faster. If your 48v battery saggs to 40v when you run the motor, then a higher current battery,( larger battery or better discharge rate battery) that maintains 48v when the motor runs would be faster.
In general, if you want speed and long range you just have to throw a lot of money at the problem, like buy 20 amp hours of 72v headway batteries and a huge controller to go with it. That gives you a no voltage sag 72v battery with lots of capacity. 60-80 pounds of lithium would be likely to get you 40-50 miles at high speeds for an e bike. Should cost ya around $3000.
The way I got high speed and long range was to buy a gasoline scooter for $700 used, that goes 60 mph for 80 miles on a tank of gas costing three bucks. It just made more sense than building a high speed e bike. My range on my ebike, with two batteries can be in the 40-60 mile ballpark, but not very fast.
dogman dan
1 PW
Still not sure if what I just said was really clear.
Say you increase voltage, now you go faster. Increasing the volts usually is the best way to get more top speed without changing motors. But it will take a lot more watthours per mile to go faster, due to wind resistance. If you went from 36v 20 ah to 72v 10 ah, you will have a lot less range since the battery is still the same size, just configured to a different voltage. But if you went from 36v 20 ah to 72v 20 ah, you just doubled the size of the battery, and you should have range that is pretty close to what you got before. You doubled the power used, but also doubled the battery so you more or less have the same range as before.
So to keep range while increasing speed is going to take a lot more battery size since the efficiency goes down as speed goes up.
Say you increase voltage, now you go faster. Increasing the volts usually is the best way to get more top speed without changing motors. But it will take a lot more watthours per mile to go faster, due to wind resistance. If you went from 36v 20 ah to 72v 10 ah, you will have a lot less range since the battery is still the same size, just configured to a different voltage. But if you went from 36v 20 ah to 72v 20 ah, you just doubled the size of the battery, and you should have range that is pretty close to what you got before. You doubled the power used, but also doubled the battery so you more or less have the same range as before.
So to keep range while increasing speed is going to take a lot more battery size since the efficiency goes down as speed goes up.
adrian_sm
1 MW
Short answer is voltage.
Voltage defines the maximum speed of the wheel.
How fast you go defines how much range you will get.
Adrian
Voltage defines the maximum speed of the wheel.
How fast you go defines how much range you will get.
Adrian
will_newton
1 kW
That's what I like about Dogman, he's always thinking outside the kennel.dogman said:
icecube57
10 MW
One thing about motors is they are designed to operate at a specific voltage with maximum efficiency. My GM operates very well at 48v. Any higher the energy wasted get exponetialy higher when under load.. The hub moto simulator shows 30-40% Efficiency on 10-15% grade hills at 86v nominal. but at lower voltage its in the 60% range. Wheel size plays a factor also. It can drastically affect the effiency of a motor for the better in smalled wheel sizes. So even though you are adding more voltage and more amps. Its helping with acceleration and speed but after a certain voltage the gain dimminishes and waste in the form of heat becomes very apparent. I see it all to often in my motor. On level ground it really shines... The slightest hill it becomes an easy bake oven... instant hot plate. It will gladly propel you but its just a retarted amount of energy wasted. You have to have the right motor to do the job. My motor is wound mostly for speed but to get torque I gott throw more amps at it. Amps help u get to a certain speed with acceleration and it helps you sustain it over various terrain. Volts give you a higher speed but this also means you need more amps to push through that wind resistance. After you go beyond the rated range for a motor. It becomes almost like a 2:1 ratio. You need 2 Amps to get the same loaded performace/speed increase from 1 volt. The since behind it is crazy. 86v 45A Nominaly is only 10mph faster 48v 30A. More Voltage More Current And More Watts doesnt always mean speed and power will go up in the same ratio.
WOT at 48v Nominal I used 0.75AH a mile at 86v Nominal on my current pack Im using 1AH a mile. You will use more power. You will waste more power. No getting around that. But WH is WH. If you can control your speed at 86v you can get the same range as if you had half the voltage and double the AH.
As far as range. Its all about self control. with help from current limiting I can get 7 miles on my 86v 6.6AH pack going 40-45mph or I can get 30-35 mies doing 15-20mph. I have the speed at the flip of a switch. I have the range at the flip of a switch also. People say the Infenion controller speed selection is a fluff feature than no one really uses. I use it every time i ride. It gives me the power i want but it also helps give me the self control to limp home after play time is almost over. It lets me choose how much or how little exercise I want.
WOT at 48v Nominal I used 0.75AH a mile at 86v Nominal on my current pack Im using 1AH a mile. You will use more power. You will waste more power. No getting around that. But WH is WH. If you can control your speed at 86v you can get the same range as if you had half the voltage and double the AH.
As far as range. Its all about self control. with help from current limiting I can get 7 miles on my 86v 6.6AH pack going 40-45mph or I can get 30-35 mies doing 15-20mph. I have the speed at the flip of a switch. I have the range at the flip of a switch also. People say the Infenion controller speed selection is a fluff feature than no one really uses. I use it every time i ride. It gives me the power i want but it also helps give me the self control to limp home after play time is almost over. It lets me choose how much or how little exercise I want.
dogman dan
1 PW
Excellent point about amps. Compare two of my motors, The Fusin and the E-BikeKit.
The Fusin is a gearmotor with a 15 amp controller. It goes slightly faster than 20 mph at full speed, 36v. But throw a headwind at it, and it slows wayyyyy down.
The E-BikeKit is a 9 continent with a 22 amp controller. It goes slightly faster than 20 mph at full speed 36v. Throw the same headwind at this motor and it may slow down to 18 mph, while the fusin is going 12.
So you do have to have sufficient amps as well as voltage. I sorta think when you get to 72v having a 20 amp controller is kinda small, while it may be plenty at 48v. Depending on the winding count, a 9c or 530x may be plenty fast at 48v once you have a good strong battery with no voltage sag and a 35 amp controller. Over 20 mph is an illegal street vehicle in most places. Here in NM, I'm allowed 25 mph but most places it's 20.
The Fusin is a gearmotor with a 15 amp controller. It goes slightly faster than 20 mph at full speed, 36v. But throw a headwind at it, and it slows wayyyyy down.
The E-BikeKit is a 9 continent with a 22 amp controller. It goes slightly faster than 20 mph at full speed 36v. Throw the same headwind at this motor and it may slow down to 18 mph, while the fusin is going 12.
So you do have to have sufficient amps as well as voltage. I sorta think when you get to 72v having a 20 amp controller is kinda small, while it may be plenty at 48v. Depending on the winding count, a 9c or 530x may be plenty fast at 48v once you have a good strong battery with no voltage sag and a 35 amp controller. Over 20 mph is an illegal street vehicle in most places. Here in NM, I'm allowed 25 mph but most places it's 20.
chet
100 W
".... voltage sag that gets fixed by having a bettery battery.."
:lol: Hey, Dogman. What a great trade name, The Bettery Battery.
So, is the simple answer, more volts more speed, more AH more distance, all other things being equal??
:lol: Hey, Dogman. What a great trade name, The Bettery Battery.
So, is the simple answer, more volts more speed, more AH more distance, all other things being equal??
StevenR
100 W
Learn to tuck and optimize position. Get a big ring and pedal along at speed.
I have a handlebar bag behind the bars with just a cardboard fairing across the front. The bars are narrowed about 3" and I can tuck in behind the bag such that very little wind hits my chest. I need to do better testing but it seems to reduce power consumption 20%, 1700 down to 1400 watts at 32 MPH changing from an upright, spread (hands on the end of the bars) to a tight narrow tuck behind the bag. I don't know what the bag does but it seems like it should help and it sure is handy for things you want close to hand. I want to add a small windscreen without increasing frontal area. Practice the tuck and get comfortable in it. I am thinking about adding a pad so I can lie on the bag a bit.
Get a big ring and pedal like a madman while staying tucked. hostelshoppe.com has 60T 110 or 130 mm bolt circle rings which, driving an 11T rear cog, will allow you to keep a reasonable cadence at 35-40MPH. Don't settle for a 12T because you get more increase in ratio per tooth on the little ring and 11T freewheels are available - I think I got mine at bikepartsusa.com. It seems like I can add 1-2 MPH at 35 or drop the power consumption 100-200 watts at 35.
The voltage or current don't seem to matter beyond a certain point - watts is watts - 96V times 20 amps or 48V times 40 amps. You can't carry or afford the ampere-hours to push the bike faster than a certain speed and a rig that will deliver 2500 watts - 50 amps at 48 volts - will deliver 40MPH and go about 1 mile per ampere hour. At this point it is limited by the controller speed limit and is not using the 2500 watts all the time. I haven't flashed the speed limit higher yet but the range decrease between 35 and 40MPH is so savage that I don't think I will go much faster but I may set it so that I get the burn the 20aH Ping in the 10 miles across town - probably only a 45MPH top speed or so and aero issues will become paramount and improvements more important. I go to my mom's house across town to make her dinner and I bomb my 5303/methods monster controller/headway 48V10aH rig at better than 30 MPH (rolling time measured by the CA) AVERAGE in town, accelerating away from lights WAY faster than the cars and it uses right around 50wH/mile which is 1aH per mile with this rig. The10aH battery is getting squishy after 9 miles. It takes about 20 minutes in a car and I have done it in 15 on the bike. Slowing to 20-25 MPH the tuck doesn't seem to matter, I have to downshift the rear a bit and I can lower consumption to 20-25wH/mile or almost nothing if I really crank - this is barely faster than I go on a human-only powered bike - and I can easily get 40 miles on a 48V20aH v3 Ping (it has delivered over 1100wH without tripping LVC or even getting seeming to lose any power, BTW). And I go crazy. I can't go that slow so the figures at this end of the spectrum are estimates because I never go that slow...
I have a handlebar bag behind the bars with just a cardboard fairing across the front. The bars are narrowed about 3" and I can tuck in behind the bag such that very little wind hits my chest. I need to do better testing but it seems to reduce power consumption 20%, 1700 down to 1400 watts at 32 MPH changing from an upright, spread (hands on the end of the bars) to a tight narrow tuck behind the bag. I don't know what the bag does but it seems like it should help and it sure is handy for things you want close to hand. I want to add a small windscreen without increasing frontal area. Practice the tuck and get comfortable in it. I am thinking about adding a pad so I can lie on the bag a bit.
Get a big ring and pedal like a madman while staying tucked. hostelshoppe.com has 60T 110 or 130 mm bolt circle rings which, driving an 11T rear cog, will allow you to keep a reasonable cadence at 35-40MPH. Don't settle for a 12T because you get more increase in ratio per tooth on the little ring and 11T freewheels are available - I think I got mine at bikepartsusa.com. It seems like I can add 1-2 MPH at 35 or drop the power consumption 100-200 watts at 35.
The voltage or current don't seem to matter beyond a certain point - watts is watts - 96V times 20 amps or 48V times 40 amps. You can't carry or afford the ampere-hours to push the bike faster than a certain speed and a rig that will deliver 2500 watts - 50 amps at 48 volts - will deliver 40MPH and go about 1 mile per ampere hour. At this point it is limited by the controller speed limit and is not using the 2500 watts all the time. I haven't flashed the speed limit higher yet but the range decrease between 35 and 40MPH is so savage that I don't think I will go much faster but I may set it so that I get the burn the 20aH Ping in the 10 miles across town - probably only a 45MPH top speed or so and aero issues will become paramount and improvements more important. I go to my mom's house across town to make her dinner and I bomb my 5303/methods monster controller/headway 48V10aH rig at better than 30 MPH (rolling time measured by the CA) AVERAGE in town, accelerating away from lights WAY faster than the cars and it uses right around 50wH/mile which is 1aH per mile with this rig. The10aH battery is getting squishy after 9 miles. It takes about 20 minutes in a car and I have done it in 15 on the bike. Slowing to 20-25 MPH the tuck doesn't seem to matter, I have to downshift the rear a bit and I can lower consumption to 20-25wH/mile or almost nothing if I really crank - this is barely faster than I go on a human-only powered bike - and I can easily get 40 miles on a 48V20aH v3 Ping (it has delivered over 1100wH without tripping LVC or even getting seeming to lose any power, BTW). And I go crazy. I can't go that slow so the figures at this end of the spectrum are estimates because I never go that slow...
StevenR
100 W
I guess a little clarification to point the previous answer at the question better. A 10aH48V Headway battery - 16 ten ampere hour cells in series and what I consider my "standard battery" such that, for me, all other batteries will just be multiples of this - will deliver enough continuous current to go around 45MPH but only go about 5-6 miles. A 5303 on a 26" wheel seems to handle 2500 watts and run right about 40MPH on the flats without getting more than warm so it should take the 3000 the pack can deliver and go about 45. This speed will be primarily aero related as is the 40 MPH at 2500 watts - I only go 35 if I don't tuck.
I am thinking about aero improvements - a tail cone cargo bag, bar modifications, side panels, disk wheel covers. This is the route to speed and range. Recumbents don't have an aero advantage over an upright bicycle cyclist in a good tuck and most of the existing fairings don't lower the drag much if at all because they increase the frontal area (big no-no). Recumbents are more aero for human powered cyclists because it is easier to maintain the position for long periods of time but you can only go 45MPH for so long. I can stay in a tuck long enough to kill a 10aH battery at 40. I bet I can stay in a tuck long enough to kill a 20aH battery at 45MPH. What are you going to carry? 40aH? 50? If you can stay in the tuck for an hour, that's about all you need.
I am thinking about aero improvements - a tail cone cargo bag, bar modifications, side panels, disk wheel covers. This is the route to speed and range. Recumbents don't have an aero advantage over an upright bicycle cyclist in a good tuck and most of the existing fairings don't lower the drag much if at all because they increase the frontal area (big no-no). Recumbents are more aero for human powered cyclists because it is easier to maintain the position for long periods of time but you can only go 45MPH for so long. I can stay in a tuck long enough to kill a 10aH battery at 40. I bet I can stay in a tuck long enough to kill a 20aH battery at 45MPH. What are you going to carry? 40aH? 50? If you can stay in the tuck for an hour, that's about all you need.
StevenR
100 W
http://www.zzipper.com/documents/HPV_Paper.pdf is a (badly scanned pdf image) paper at the zipper fairings site, zzipper.com, on aerodynamics that shows a recumbent as slightly better than a crouched upright cyclist. They had a wind tunnel test that showed the aero tuck (aero extensions, not drops like in the pdf) was actually better but they seem to have removed it - a wise marketing move...
dogman dan
1 PW
To get 40 miles out of my 36v 20 ah ping, I have to ride about 12 mph. I suspect the extra 4 cells in the 48v would allow that range at closer to 16 mph.
Another good way to maximise range is to pedal in the right gear, as pointed out above. The idea is , whatever speed you choose on the throttle, pedal enough to go at least 1 mph faster. This puts the motor in the sweet spot that draws less amps. At faster speeds, you need the big chainring to do it. On my commuter I have a 58 tooth front sprocket that allows me to pedal faster than my motors go. But I practice this pedal a bit faster thing all the time what ever speed I ride. When hypermiling, I throttle to about 10 mph, and pedal to about 12-13 and get phenomenal range.
I don't do any tucking, at my age I have something that gets in the way of crouching for an hour. :lol: But if you are young and have no spare tire, tucking really does wonders for lowering wind resistance.
About amps. If amps are pretty low to start with, yes, a headwind or hill will really slow you down. If the question was how to get more speed uphill, or into a wind, the answer would definitely be more amps, and maybe more volts too. If the battery is too small, increasing the controllers amps will not make the battery able to provide those amps. So yeah, you need to start out with at least a battery and controller that can put out 20-30 amps to get any decent performance. Increasing amps of both the controller and battery with voltage the same will have a noticeable effect, but it won't increase top speed so much unless you started with a pretty weak level. But if your battery is only going to put out say, 20 amps without sagging, then adding cells to increase voltage would have an effect on top speed without having to buy higher quality batteries, or increasing the size of the whole pack to be able to provide a higher amp rate.
So the simple answer still remains, go from 36v to 48v to get the cheapest simplest increase in top speed. The extra 12v battery will help keep range similar since the pack just got a bit bigger. At some point this simple solution starts to break down as you reach a particular controller, motor, or battery types limitations. Then the answer starts to be get an x5 instead of a 408 or whatever. In many cases, 48v is plenty of volts, and increasing amps may be better for overall performance before going to 72v. I'd rather have 48v 50 amps than 72v 20 amps. Not for top speed, but for better hill climbing, faster off the line, better into a stiff wind, etc. But with the right motor, 72v 50 amps would be great, just not even close to street legal.
Motor choice for the type of ride makes a huge difference too. I'm riding motor #7 now and all have acted different. Some clearly needed more amps, other more volts, and others went up in smoke with more volts. The best one so far for being average good at all kinds of riding is the E-bikeKit that uses a 9 continents motor. The larger diameter helps tourqe, and this one is wound a bit slower giving even better hill performance. But it is also a very efficient motor at top speed on the flats too, most likely due to the large diameter again. Other vendors sell a faster wound version of this motor if speed is what you want. The point is, a more efficient motor for going fast may be best for speed and range, in addition to the right voltage. If the ride has too many stops though, you'll never see the range because you start and stop too much to ever spend any time in the fast motors efficeint speed range.
Another good way to maximise range is to pedal in the right gear, as pointed out above. The idea is , whatever speed you choose on the throttle, pedal enough to go at least 1 mph faster. This puts the motor in the sweet spot that draws less amps. At faster speeds, you need the big chainring to do it. On my commuter I have a 58 tooth front sprocket that allows me to pedal faster than my motors go. But I practice this pedal a bit faster thing all the time what ever speed I ride. When hypermiling, I throttle to about 10 mph, and pedal to about 12-13 and get phenomenal range.
I don't do any tucking, at my age I have something that gets in the way of crouching for an hour. :lol: But if you are young and have no spare tire, tucking really does wonders for lowering wind resistance.
About amps. If amps are pretty low to start with, yes, a headwind or hill will really slow you down. If the question was how to get more speed uphill, or into a wind, the answer would definitely be more amps, and maybe more volts too. If the battery is too small, increasing the controllers amps will not make the battery able to provide those amps. So yeah, you need to start out with at least a battery and controller that can put out 20-30 amps to get any decent performance. Increasing amps of both the controller and battery with voltage the same will have a noticeable effect, but it won't increase top speed so much unless you started with a pretty weak level. But if your battery is only going to put out say, 20 amps without sagging, then adding cells to increase voltage would have an effect on top speed without having to buy higher quality batteries, or increasing the size of the whole pack to be able to provide a higher amp rate.
So the simple answer still remains, go from 36v to 48v to get the cheapest simplest increase in top speed. The extra 12v battery will help keep range similar since the pack just got a bit bigger. At some point this simple solution starts to break down as you reach a particular controller, motor, or battery types limitations. Then the answer starts to be get an x5 instead of a 408 or whatever. In many cases, 48v is plenty of volts, and increasing amps may be better for overall performance before going to 72v. I'd rather have 48v 50 amps than 72v 20 amps. Not for top speed, but for better hill climbing, faster off the line, better into a stiff wind, etc. But with the right motor, 72v 50 amps would be great, just not even close to street legal.
Motor choice for the type of ride makes a huge difference too. I'm riding motor #7 now and all have acted different. Some clearly needed more amps, other more volts, and others went up in smoke with more volts. The best one so far for being average good at all kinds of riding is the E-bikeKit that uses a 9 continents motor. The larger diameter helps tourqe, and this one is wound a bit slower giving even better hill performance. But it is also a very efficient motor at top speed on the flats too, most likely due to the large diameter again. Other vendors sell a faster wound version of this motor if speed is what you want. The point is, a more efficient motor for going fast may be best for speed and range, in addition to the right voltage. If the ride has too many stops though, you'll never see the range because you start and stop too much to ever spend any time in the fast motors efficeint speed range.
Speedfreke
100 W
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2009
- Messages
- 104
Hi dogman, you said you get 40mi. if you ride at 12 mph with the 36v battery. Are you riding a 5303 too? (by-the-way my grandma walks faster than 12 mph)
But seriously what kind of range would you get from a 5303, 26" wheel, 48v20ahr ping v2.5, 35amp controller at 30+mph with no pedalling?
Is that a pic of your dog? bloodhound? I'm working on my 7th dog, present one a schnoodle.
But seriously what kind of range would you get from a 5303, 26" wheel, 48v20ahr ping v2.5, 35amp controller at 30+mph with no pedalling?
Is that a pic of your dog? bloodhound? I'm working on my 7th dog, present one a schnoodle.
icecube57
10 MW
on level gound at 20mph i can get 30 miles out of my 86-88v nominal 6.6AH pack. which would be a 12AH at 48v faux pedling along with motor. With the controller at eco mod limiting the speed an the amps. I would see 2-600w consumption and speeds 19-23mph. amps are between 2-6A. I can see 40m being done easily with a 48v 15AH. Without being tired. My setup gets about 4.5 miles per AH in eco. My ductape ebay pack i had got 65 miles at 16-18 mph and used 15AH.
My setup at 30 mph on a 48v 15AH pack. Would get 30 miles at 0.75AH a mile. 36wh/mi. This was on a 35A controller Wide open throttle. I think thats where it was most efficient.
Only 6-7 miles with 86-88v and 6.AH. Wide Open Throttle and 45A controller. Motor sucks juice on high end. But will do 40-45mph top speed with an average speed of 30mph.
Again light throttle use can make a difference. I could even pop my controller down into Speed 2 and stay in the high 20mph range for about 15-20 miles on the same 6.6AH pack. Its all about finding the butter zone of the motor to where you are wasting watts.
You can increase speed with voltage and use it as need it. At 48v there really is no need to hammer the throttle 100% unless you are in an area where it suitable. So by increasing voltage you can increase range with self control but more likely if you are WOT all the time at a higher voltage you will see reduced range more likely because the motor is prob not in the zone it should be in. It will be going faster but it will waste more energy and you will travel less distance even though you have more WH in your pack by going up in voltage.
My setup at 30 mph on a 48v 15AH pack. Would get 30 miles at 0.75AH a mile. 36wh/mi. This was on a 35A controller Wide open throttle. I think thats where it was most efficient.
Only 6-7 miles with 86-88v and 6.AH. Wide Open Throttle and 45A controller. Motor sucks juice on high end. But will do 40-45mph top speed with an average speed of 30mph.
Again light throttle use can make a difference. I could even pop my controller down into Speed 2 and stay in the high 20mph range for about 15-20 miles on the same 6.6AH pack. Its all about finding the butter zone of the motor to where you are wasting watts.
You can increase speed with voltage and use it as need it. At 48v there really is no need to hammer the throttle 100% unless you are in an area where it suitable. So by increasing voltage you can increase range with self control but more likely if you are WOT all the time at a higher voltage you will see reduced range more likely because the motor is prob not in the zone it should be in. It will be going faster but it will waste more energy and you will travel less distance even though you have more WH in your pack by going up in voltage.
dogman dan
1 PW
The dog in the Atavar is the one that bit the kid. She came from colorado from a gal who was in school there, and had to keep her penned up a lot. Every day the school bus would stop in front of her cage, and the kids got off and teased her. She bit her owner a few times, and was about to be taken to the pound, where a dog with human bite history has zero chance. They won't put them up to adopt, just kill em. I was in a bloodhound specific adoption group at the time, specializing in dogs the rest of the group wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. Honey, the dog, was quite something. If you went out in the yard, went back inside and put on a coat and came back out, she'd go for your throat. She just tried to kill anything she didn't recognize. One day I was walking 6 bloodhounds and got my timing wrong. A schoolbus came down the street and stopped 20 feet from me. Honey broke the collar and bit the crap out of the poor kid. She went to the pound and got killed anyway. At that point, keeping her would have canceled my house insurance. The bloodhound group kicked me out, even though I kept them from being sued by heaving a ton of cash at the victim. My sucess rate with man biting dogs is still 80% , not bad, but I couldn't afford the other 20% so I haven't fostered any new dogs for about two years now. Cezar Milans methods worked for me, but I having a job, I couldn't put the time into it Cezar can.
Back to bikes, the 40 mile range I get is on the aotema motor, using a 36v 20 ah at 12 mph. The same motor, at 25 mph will go 22miles. So I'm sure at 25 mph a 48v 20 ah battery would take it 30 miles, maybe a bit less, like 29 miles. That's with signifigant pedaling. I can't ride 20-30 miles no pedaling, my ass would die, legs would fall asleep, etc. I have no interest in long range riding with no pedaling.
I really can't say about ranges at 30 mph since I don't have a bike that will go that fast really. If I put my 48v 8 ah nicads on the aotema I get close, about 28-29 mph. But voltage sag quickly takes me down to closer to 27mph for most of the ride, and toward the end, back to 25 mph. I'll get about 6-8 miles if I ride that battery full out. My best guess is that you will get less than a mile per amp hour at full speed on flat ground. The wind resistance really piles on the faster you go. The difference in range from 20mph to 30 mph is huge. Nevertheless, if you want to go 30 mph or faster, the 5303 in 26" is the motor to have. No other will go that fast more efficiently for as far in my opinion.
So taking a what my old Agriculture professor calls a guesstimate, I'd say that a 48v-20 ah ping, 35 amp controller, and 5303 is going to go about 18-20 miles at 30 mph. I'll also guessimate that the ping will never see 1000 cycles with that setup. Could be less than 500 cycles if you run it to cutoff much with that 35 amp controller. I think it's wise to keep a pingbattery well under 1.5c. So that's 30 amps. A 5303 at top speed cruising may use 30 amps continuous. That's pretty hard use for a ping. To run a 530x on ping I think 25 -30 ah is the size to use. If you look at wattages ping recomends, he agrees. The same setup with a fast wound 9c motor would work though, the 9c cruising at 30 mph may only be drawing 20-25 amps. The 9c may have to stop and cool off sooner than a 5303 though. If the ride is less than 10 miles between stops, no problem. Running a 5303 on the 20 amp controller is a different story, but hill performance will suffer.
Back to bikes, the 40 mile range I get is on the aotema motor, using a 36v 20 ah at 12 mph. The same motor, at 25 mph will go 22miles. So I'm sure at 25 mph a 48v 20 ah battery would take it 30 miles, maybe a bit less, like 29 miles. That's with signifigant pedaling. I can't ride 20-30 miles no pedaling, my ass would die, legs would fall asleep, etc. I have no interest in long range riding with no pedaling.
I really can't say about ranges at 30 mph since I don't have a bike that will go that fast really. If I put my 48v 8 ah nicads on the aotema I get close, about 28-29 mph. But voltage sag quickly takes me down to closer to 27mph for most of the ride, and toward the end, back to 25 mph. I'll get about 6-8 miles if I ride that battery full out. My best guess is that you will get less than a mile per amp hour at full speed on flat ground. The wind resistance really piles on the faster you go. The difference in range from 20mph to 30 mph is huge. Nevertheless, if you want to go 30 mph or faster, the 5303 in 26" is the motor to have. No other will go that fast more efficiently for as far in my opinion.
So taking a what my old Agriculture professor calls a guesstimate, I'd say that a 48v-20 ah ping, 35 amp controller, and 5303 is going to go about 18-20 miles at 30 mph. I'll also guessimate that the ping will never see 1000 cycles with that setup. Could be less than 500 cycles if you run it to cutoff much with that 35 amp controller. I think it's wise to keep a pingbattery well under 1.5c. So that's 30 amps. A 5303 at top speed cruising may use 30 amps continuous. That's pretty hard use for a ping. To run a 530x on ping I think 25 -30 ah is the size to use. If you look at wattages ping recomends, he agrees. The same setup with a fast wound 9c motor would work though, the 9c cruising at 30 mph may only be drawing 20-25 amps. The 9c may have to stop and cool off sooner than a 5303 though. If the ride is less than 10 miles between stops, no problem. Running a 5303 on the 20 amp controller is a different story, but hill performance will suffer.
icecube57
10 MW
Hey dog i do understand how your estimates always push the 1ah a mile. It its mostly accurate but different motors have different inductance. Ever moto has their butter zone where they operate efficiently. The 5303 will run better at high speeds with less voltage while a 5305 will have slower speed and more torque at the same voltage. You would have to throw more volts at the 5305 to match the speed of a 5303. So you would use more wh in the process.
We understand that concept. Here is another point. with a 5305 over hilly terrain and a slower speed it is in its butter zone for torque and efficiency. It will use less power because its in its comfort zone. If you take the 5303 a hilly terrain will cause it to use more power heating up the motor windings creating more resistance more inductance requiring more power than the 5305.
If he knows the terrain hes going to be riding in. The does he have the motor for the job. If he doesnt then he needs a larger pack to compensate for waste. If he does I would get a smaller pack.
Also if he wants a set speed of 30mph having the controller help you with consumption would be ideal. My setup with my speed mode has one that hovers around 30mph. Once it reaches that speed which is 60% programmed max speed at WOT it will reduce the duty cycle using less power when at WOT. Instead of 100% WOT using 3500w its using inly 800w-1000w to maintain speed.
Just realize more volts on certain motors only creates waste in real world situations. My gm is fine on the flats and consumptions is low at normal speeds. Even at beyond normal speeds the numbers still look good but you throw my bike in real worl situations where the motor isnt match like in my last video with varying terrain i used 1ah a mile with up hill and down hills
We understand that concept. Here is another point. with a 5305 over hilly terrain and a slower speed it is in its butter zone for torque and efficiency. It will use less power because its in its comfort zone. If you take the 5303 a hilly terrain will cause it to use more power heating up the motor windings creating more resistance more inductance requiring more power than the 5305.
If he knows the terrain hes going to be riding in. The does he have the motor for the job. If he doesnt then he needs a larger pack to compensate for waste. If he does I would get a smaller pack.
Also if he wants a set speed of 30mph having the controller help you with consumption would be ideal. My setup with my speed mode has one that hovers around 30mph. Once it reaches that speed which is 60% programmed max speed at WOT it will reduce the duty cycle using less power when at WOT. Instead of 100% WOT using 3500w its using inly 800w-1000w to maintain speed.
Just realize more volts on certain motors only creates waste in real world situations. My gm is fine on the flats and consumptions is low at normal speeds. Even at beyond normal speeds the numbers still look good but you throw my bike in real worl situations where the motor isnt match like in my last video with varying terrain i used 1ah a mile with up hill and down hills
icecube57
10 MW
Hey dog i do understand how your estimates always push the 1ah a mile. It its mostly accurate but different motors have different inductance. Ever moto has their butter zone where they operate efficiently. The 5303 will run better at high speeds with less voltage while a 5305 will have slower speed and more torque at the same voltage. You would have to throw more volts at the 5305 to match the speed of a 5303. So you would use more wh in the process.
We understand that concept. Here is another point. with a 5305 over hilly terrain and a slower speed it is in its butter zone for torque and efficiency. It will use less power because its in its comfort zone. If you take the 5303 a hilly terrain will cause it to use more power heating up the motor windings creating more resistance more inductance requiring more power than the 5305.
If he knows the terrain hes going to be riding in. The does he have the motor for the job. If he doesnt then he needs a larger pack to compensate for waste. If he does I would get a smaller pack.
Also if he wants a set speed of 30mph having the controller help you with consumption would be ideal. My setup with my speed mode has one that hovers around 30mph. Once it reaches that speed which is 60% programmed max speed at WOT it will reduce the duty cycle using less power when at WOT. Instead of 100% WOT using 3500w its using inly 800w-1000w to maintain speed.
Just realize more volts on certain motors only creates waste in real world situations. My gm is fine on the flats and consumptions is low at normal speeds. Even at beyond normal speeds the numbers still look good but you throw my bike in real worl situations where the motor isnt match like in my last video with varying terrain i used 1ah a mile with up hill and down hills
We understand that concept. Here is another point. with a 5305 over hilly terrain and a slower speed it is in its butter zone for torque and efficiency. It will use less power because its in its comfort zone. If you take the 5303 a hilly terrain will cause it to use more power heating up the motor windings creating more resistance more inductance requiring more power than the 5305.
If he knows the terrain hes going to be riding in. The does he have the motor for the job. If he doesnt then he needs a larger pack to compensate for waste. If he does I would get a smaller pack.
Also if he wants a set speed of 30mph having the controller help you with consumption would be ideal. My setup with my speed mode has one that hovers around 30mph. Once it reaches that speed which is 60% programmed max speed at WOT it will reduce the duty cycle using less power when at WOT. Instead of 100% WOT using 3500w its using inly 800w-1000w to maintain speed.
Just realize more volts on certain motors only creates waste in real world situations. My gm is fine on the flats and consumptions is low at normal speeds. Even at beyond normal speeds the numbers still look good but you throw my bike in real worl situations where the motor isnt match like in my last video with varying terrain i used 1ah a mile with up hill and down hills
StevenR
100 W
broloch:
My last run was 28 miles and change at an average of 25 MPH using about 1100Wh - 40Wh per mile. It was calm (5-10 MPH cross wind), 45F and my route is not flat but surely not mountainous - a 200 foot elevation gain with a couple good hills. It was 28 miles both out and back but I stopped and charged at the halfway point (28 miles) and overnight halfway home - ah, the lovely Sandy. I peddle a bit but it is mostly decorative. I run a 52-11 so I can sort of keep up at speed.
Email Ping for a v3 price. They are available. The v3 is 3C rated and comes with a 60A continuous BMS (that reminds me that I should setup the Ping on the methods Monster controller to see what it will really do - it doesn't even get warm at 35A continuous and I have pulled over 200A peak with the controller hooked to some headways) versus the v2.5 rated at 2C with a 40A BMS. It is still rated at 5A charge but I have charged it at over 7.5A BTW.
Oh, dogman: Street legal? Of course I'm street legal! These stories are all made up. I lie alot and have an overactive imagination. My bike only goes 20MPH and it only puts out 750 watts MAXIMUM. The 5303/100V/100A controller/Pingv3 or Headway 60A continuous battery are all just overkill and I always keep a 15A limit in my CA, as do we all, so help me Dog, er God...
My last run was 28 miles and change at an average of 25 MPH using about 1100Wh - 40Wh per mile. It was calm (5-10 MPH cross wind), 45F and my route is not flat but surely not mountainous - a 200 foot elevation gain with a couple good hills. It was 28 miles both out and back but I stopped and charged at the halfway point (28 miles) and overnight halfway home - ah, the lovely Sandy. I peddle a bit but it is mostly decorative. I run a 52-11 so I can sort of keep up at speed.
Email Ping for a v3 price. They are available. The v3 is 3C rated and comes with a 60A continuous BMS (that reminds me that I should setup the Ping on the methods Monster controller to see what it will really do - it doesn't even get warm at 35A continuous and I have pulled over 200A peak with the controller hooked to some headways) versus the v2.5 rated at 2C with a 40A BMS. It is still rated at 5A charge but I have charged it at over 7.5A BTW.
Oh, dogman: Street legal? Of course I'm street legal! These stories are all made up. I lie alot and have an overactive imagination. My bike only goes 20MPH and it only puts out 750 watts MAXIMUM. The 5303/100V/100A controller/Pingv3 or Headway 60A continuous battery are all just overkill and I always keep a 15A limit in my CA, as do we all, so help me Dog, er God...
