Weird issue with motor going too fast FIXED!!!

[Spacey]

Sure I know.... a motor can never go too fast...

But this other bike I have is based on a fast wind MAC motor with matching 12 Fet Controller and 16Cell 16Ah Headway pack. The weird thing is that with no load the motor spins stupidly fast, it seems like it is way to fast.....but when you use the bike it cuts out after 1.5 to 2secs.

It does accelerate nicely for those 2secs but you have to shut the throttle off and on again to get it to move. The only time it will run longer is if you lift the wheel off the ground.

The other thing is that it makes a nasty growling sound if you try to pull away from standstill.

It can't be the BMS as I have tried 2 of them to see if it was that, I did put a Watt meter on it and did not see anything over 20 amps but then it cuts out before it could go any higher...maybe its peaking at way too high amps and cutting out the BMS but it's so fast the meter does not read it?

Any ideas?

 

[d8veh]

I remember about 6 months ago a guy had a motor that went ridiculously fast. It turned out his hall sensor and/or phade wire sequence was wrong. It ran normally after he swapped a couple of wires.

 

[Spacey]

Sounds like it could be that, I think I remember doing that myself on another motor. The cutting out could be the BMS shutting down the power due to the really high amps used maybe?

I swapped the Blue and Yellow phase wires over and the amps went stupid high but not movement just a grumble so I think I shall just keep trying out different combinations.

 

[liveforphysics]

Halls are advanced. Try new combos.

 

[Spacey]

Oh the joys of finding the correct combination.

Cheers for the advice, will crack out the soldering iron....again.

 

[John in CR]

Oh the joys of finding the correct combination..

Are you sure it's not a phase angle issue 60° or 120°?

If not, it's quite simple, since you need to reverse direction, because in my experience false positives (spin but way way advanced or just not smooth) have always been opposite direction of the correct combo for that setting of halls or phase. First, swap 2, any 2, and only 2 of the phase or hall YGB wires, whichever is more difficult. Then find the correct smooth running combo of the other 5 possible hall (or phase if you swapped 2 halls above) combinations.

Say goodbye to wiring config anxiety.

John

 

[Spacey]

John in CR, I think I have my thick head on today as I'm trying to understand your instructions and failing a bit lol...it has been a very long day for me so I am a bit tired.

The motor is running in the correct direction (geared motor so won't run in reverse) but I hear what you are saying and will just cut the hall wires and try swapping over 2 at a time

I might make a quick short video of the motor going really fast.

 

[amberwolf]

I was playing with controllers on my 9C DD hub a little while back, and found a combo that allowed stupidly fast RPM off-ground, way faster than the actual voltage of the pack should allow. I cant' remmeber for sure, but something like 70-75MPH. Fast enough to throw the speedo magnets I'd had on the steel spoke flange off into the room somewhere. I've still not found all of them. :lol:

Normal speed for that motor is about 40MPH unloaded off-ground, at the same pack voltage.

 

[John in CR]

John in CR, I think I have my thick head on today as I'm trying to understand your instructions and failing a bit lol...it has been a very long day for me so I am a bit tired.

The motor is running in the correct direction (geared motor so won't run in reverse) but I hear what you are saying and will just cut the hall wires and try swapping over 2 at a time

I might make a quick short video of the motor going really fast.

You seem to have a false positive, but correct direction. Changing only halls or only phases will get you a good combo, but in reverse IME. For a good forward you need to change 2 phases (or 2 halls) AND find the right combo of the halls (or phase). My first post was slightly wrong, since you're not starting with a good reverse, so the initial 2 wire swap could get a good forward. The key is to swap 2 and then leave that set of wires static, and try combos of the other. Where most go wrong and get frustrated is changing too many wires at once. Every combo of phases has one good combo or halls, and every combo of halls has one good combo of phases (lock this sentence in and you're home free). Swapping any 2 wires changes the rotation direction of the previous statement. Combine both statments and you can quickly figure out the wiring of any neutrally timed 3 phase sensored motor. What helped me lock in on the simplicity is the fact that with a sensorless motor, you simply swap 2 wires to change direction. By the letters, since it all runs in a repeating circle A-B-C...is the same B-C-A.... and C-A-B... Swap any 2 and get C-B-A to change direction.

Your "false positive" tells me your "good combo" will be reverse, and going from forward to reverse means just swap 2 of one type of wires and find the right combo of the others.

Hopefully that is more coherent on my part. Once it clicks for you, you're good to go for any motor.

 

[Spacey]

Cheers John for the reply....I've basically just tried all 36 combinations...or at least I hope I did not miss any out as I am a bit tired.

Made a list of all the combinations and tried them all, closest I got was a good reverse with this combination:

Hall wires:

B. G.
G. Y.
Y. B.

Phase wires:

B. B.
G. G.
Y. Y.

Driving me freaking mad! Going to try the reverse combo again then change the phase wires around.

 

[amberwolf]

Might be as someone else said: advanced timing, where the halls are physically placed farther "forward" in rotation on the stator than the motor expects (this is what Burtie's Timing Adjuster does electronically). It can cause higher currents in operation and faster RPMs than normal.

Unless your controller has a way to correct for that, I'm not sure how to deal with it other than physically moving the halls or using something like a BTA to do it electronically, but someone else might know.

 

[Spacey]

Ok so the reverse combo that seems fine but still cuts out after 1.5secs regardless of the speed of the throttle and amps used........I found the reverse of that and does the same thing.

It seems no matter what I do the controller is cutting out...it's not the BMS as the watts meter stays powered up. It really feels like its the controller, this bike is jinxed never to work.

I will hook up the battery pack with the new BMS on to a 10 A load and see what happens.

 

[Spacey]

Ok Peak Amps at 50 Volts was 21.4A so it can't be the BMS cutting out, has to be the controller. I do have an Infineon controller from ebikes.ca but I don't think they work on the MAC motors. It keep the motor going if I keep the Watts below 25 Watts, as soon as I turn the throttle to go faster it accelerates then immediately cuts out.

You have to turn the throttle to nothing before it will try to start up again. Sounds smooth but cuts out before the power gets over 21A?

 

[Spacey]

Just tried it on a different 16Cell battery and BMS, it dos exactly the same thing so it has to be the controller.

 

[Spacey]

Just tried a 6 Fet Ebikes.ca controller with 3 x different power sources. 2 x 48v Headway packs and a battery 48V charger.

Hooked up the CA calibrated to the controller and.........

It does the same damn thing, cuts out after 1.5 secs.

So the only thing left is the motor? But how can the motor be making 2 different controllers cut out? Dodgy Hall?

 

[John in CR]

Even though it may not be part of the problem, always try without the CA first. LFP even got bit by that one when he was down here.

 

[John in CR]

Now to your too fast and cut out issue:

It doesn't sound like a motor issue unless the motor happens to be able to spin up at very advanced timing with only 2 halls working.

Until you have your wiring correct with nice smooth not over reving, you should use only small pulses of throttle, not 1-2 seconds. Incorrect wiring configs, even the high rpm false positives, come with high current and can burn a motor, or controller, or trip battery BMS's. Have you checked current?

Step back, deep breath, I know troubleshooting can be frustrating. Disconnect everything not absolutely necessary and start over. Check for a misaligned spade in the hall connector, and then get the wiring right using small throttle pulses to check the combos.

 

[Spacey]

Highest current measured was a peak of 21.4 Amps, after having tried 3 power sources, 2 x controllers, with CA, without CA it's really starting to look like a Hall has gone.

Will start again though when I get back.

 

[Science Faction]

Yesterday I wired up a 12 Fet controller to one of the HT7240 motors both of which I got from Hyena.
We have been code naming them the SHIT7240 motors.
Shit if you want to go fast but "The Shit" if you wanna go far and climb long steep hills.
Which is exactly what my friends, I am setting these bikes up for want to do.
The other 2 I had setup with the same controllers, bms and 18S of LIPO ran at 33kph no load and 30 on the road.
This one had a no load speed of 100kph.
When I took it for a test it had ran slightly rough under load and did 50 kph.
My first thought was that Kenny had sent us a HS3540 by mistake.
The controllers were set to a 30A current limit yet I was seeing 50A under acceleration.
Flicking the 3 speed switch to what I thought was 120% like the other bikes and usually gives 36 kph and the speed maxed out at 28 kph, which made me think that the controller speed settings were incorrect.
When I got from going up and down the drive, 2k the motor was hot, to hot to keep your fingers on it hot.
I then plugged the controller from one of the other bikes into this motor and it ran normal, 30kph no load speed.
Having to hand the bike over today, I pulled the controller off my bike and cut all phase and hall wires off both controllers and swapped the correct length ones off the suss bike onto the good controller.
Guess what, same problem.
Hyena and I both scratching our heads figured, well if it aint the controller and it aint the motor it must be the wiring, even though until I read this thread I had never heard of a motor being able to way over speed.
So I double checked everything and sure enough i had a phase wire wrong.
What I had was:
phases
controller motor
B Y
Y G
G B
halls
1 R R
2 Bk Bk
3 Blu Y
4 G G
5 Y B

what I have now which works:
controller motor
B B
Y G
G Y
halls
1 R R
2 Bk Bk
3 Blu Blu
4 G G
5 Y Y

Anyway it all works and of course when you do things a second time it got assembled neater .
My friends are happy the motors do 20 kph up a 20% incline of 500m and don't get warm at all.
These motors would be great with a delta, wye switch.
I will start a thread with images and reports on how these motor perform in the bush, up some of the really steep stuff.
Paul
ps Hyena is an absolute legend, can't recommend him highly enough.

 

[Wattever]

Do you have a sensorless controller? this can give you a lot of extra knowledge on the problem.
I had the same problem - my controller is a e-citypower sensored + sensorless controller, I disconnected the hall sensors and found out (as other members mentioned) it was going the wrong way! switched two phase wires, found a combination that worked and all is good.

 

[Spacey]

To summarise the problem:

I have tried all possible combinations...all 36 Phase/Hall combinations
2 x different controllers
2 x batteries and 1 x power supply source

Still the same issue.

The motor works best when it is wired up Phase/Hall with the controller it is matched with and also the Hall/Phase combinations that it is supposed to be set up with. This makes me think that it has to be something in the motor, probably a loose Hall wire.

Symptoms:

It basically spins up but cuts out after 1 second to 2 seconds of Power. Max power registered on either the Cycle Analyst or Watts up meter between controller and battery (48V Headway Pack) is no more than 21Amps so it is not the BMS cutting out. Further confirmed that the BMS is fine by bypassing the BMS.

It doesn't matter which controller I use it will always cut out after a few seconds.

I suppose I should try a Sensorless controller but was unsure if they would work with the high digital RPM Mac Motor.

 

[Spacey]

Ok, so testing the Halls by wiring up the Balck and Red wires that power the Halls and then measuring the Volts on each Hall wire when slowly turning the motor backwards (due to it being a geared motor to get the actual motor to turn).

Blue Hall Wire: I get 8.4Volts on and 50mv when off

Green Hall Wire: I get 8.4Volts constantly no matter how much I turn the wheel.....could be the problem?

Yellow Hall Wire: (Edit) I get the same as the Blue Hall 8.4v on an 50mv off

So possible dodgy Green Hall.

Will try the motor again but without the Green Hall wire connected to see if it makes any difference with it on or off.

 

[Spacey]

Fixed!!!

It was the Green Hall that had gone!

Man you would not believe the stress this bike has caused over the last year. 1 x Kelly controller blew, 1 x Signalab BMS kept melting the solder on the charging FET at 5A, 9C Halls blew due to rain in motor....had only done 50 odd miles, 1 x 16ah Headway cell would only give out half it's capacity.....and now this Hall.

It truly is indeed the bike from hell lol.

 

[Spacey]

F**ks sake!!!

Just took it out, restricted the CA to 5Amps and got 50 feet....then no throttle. At this rate I am going to buy a car!

Was running great for those 50 feet. Back inside to check it all over AGAIN!

 

[amberwolf]

5 (five) amps? If I had mine setup for current limit, and did that, I coudln't even cruise at 15MPH, much less accelerate to get there. :lol: It'd just kill the system as soon as I hit the throttle, most likely.