What do you consider the most reliable NON-Hub drive?

[drguitar]

Sorry if this seems like a newbee question (because it is). I have spent some time researching the non-hub and hub type electric bicycle systems. I think I have decided to build a non-hub type. My plan is to use a Sturmey-Archer type of 3 speed (non-coaster brake type) internal gear for a "transmission". I like the look of the single chain systems like the Cyclone 1 chainwheel system.

I'm a pretty big guy (about 6 feet, 210 pounds) and live in a very hilly area. I would love to use this bicycle as a secondary vehicle for trips to town and back (about 4 to 10 miles each way).

So there you have it. Any ideas on kits and motor size you would recommend? Which kit would you recommend as the most reliable for possible daily use?

Any and all information is helpful.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[deardancer3]

I am a 200+ pound guy in a hilly area and a big supporter of chain drives for folks in this situation.

I have owned several chain drive systems, a giant Sport, a giant Lafree Lite, a Merida 550, and a Cyclone 360w .

The cyclone is the only chain drive kit I have owned. I always worry about having a motor of anykind with the controller inside the motor. See history of USPD/currie.

my opinion:

I would go for a cyclone again in a heartbeat. But if reliability is the priority, what ever you get--get the external controller model, use a well selected throttle, be extra careful about connectors and crimps/solder joints, waterproof the motor case, use a CA meter to control peak current, get the model with two clutches on the motor shaft to avoid the troublesome clutched crank system, and make sure you have to charge the battery disconnected from the controller due to peak charging voltage.

d

 

[drguitar]

I would go for a cyclone again in a heartbeat. But if reliability is the priority, what ever you get--get the external controller model, use a well selected throttle, be extra careful about connectors and crimps/solder joints, waterproof the motor case, use a CA meter to control peak current, get the model with two clutches on the motor shaft to avoid the troublesome clutched crank system, and make sure you have to charge the battery disconnected from the controller due to peak charging voltage.
d

This information is very helpful, but it brings on a few more questions:

I will probably go for the Cyclone 1 Chainwheel kit http://www.cyclone-tw.com/newkits.htm. Does this kit include the caveats you have above?

How did you waterproof the motor?
I'm not sure I understand about "getting the model with two clutches"?

Again, although I am good with my hands, I am a newbee at this and would like to get it right the first time (I know..good luck with that... lol). Specific information is always a plus.

Thanks again!

 

[jdcburg]

Hi Mike - I built a front wheel drive ebike using a 3 speed Sturmey Archer. You can read about it at http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12604 and http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12318. It wasn't a kit, I just cobbled it up from parts I had around here and a motor and batteries I bought on the web. I used a Unite 1016Z3 that is 24 v 350 watt and has a 9.78:1 gear reduction on it. It's a replacement motor for a Razor Dirt Quad. I live in a hilly area and weigh 20 lbs less than you but the old Huffy I motorized is pretty heavy, so it might equal out. I pedal most of the time but the motor makes it pretty easy pedaling. I really like the 3 speed for more power on the hills and more speed on the flats.

I like the bike but it has a couple of issues - the bike is old and has steel wheels so the brakes don't work when they get wet and I'm a little concerned about the chain breaking or coming off and locking up the front wheel while I'm riding along. So I bought some parts from SickBikeParts.com and I am converting a suspension mtb to an 8 speed ebike. Their system allows you to mount the motor up and away from the road (and road spray) yet power the bike through the crank and utilize the gears. Jim at Sick Bike Parts jim@sickbikeparts.com has been really helpful, answering my questions quickly via email - jd

 

[deardancer3]

Take a look at the 650w motor chart, it has a seperate external controller.

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm

IN a cyclone system there needs to be three freewheeling functions, your bike probably already has one, the one that says that when the rear wheel turns while coasting, the chain and the cranks do not turn.

the second freewheel clutch says that when you pedal, but there is no power to the motor, your legs dont have to turn the motor. This is stock with most cyclones.

the third freewheel function says that when the motor is turning, (which turns a chain) you crankset does not turn your pedals. This used to be a special crankset with a freewheel functon and bottom bracket. The Crankset freewheel was rather unreliable, hence now you can get a cyclone motor with that freewheel function mounted on the motor. This requires a dedicated crankset/motor chain and a completely seperate cahin for motor to rear cluster. I went a different route and had some special Shimano crankset freewheels manufactured and stayed with one chain and one clutch on the motor.

Another problem that happens with cyclones especially at 24v, they really want a lot of current if running at 24v. If you are in the wrong gear and have a situation requiring mucho power WOT, its easy to ask 40amps of the battery and all wiring.
going up to 36v and running reasonable 27A maximum on the CA, can help a lot with this problem, still giving 1000w peak.

Cyclone 500w and lower with the internal controller is water proofed by putting sealant where the wiring harness enters the motor/controller assembly. I am not familiar with waterproofing motors with the external controller.

Which brings up the question; what bike are you going to use as a platform?

D

 

[spinningmagnets]

Here's the Cyclone mid-drive with two freewheels:

 

[drguitar]

The plan was to have a friend spoke a Sturmey Archer 3 or 5 speed rear hub and mount that on an old Huffy mountain bike frame I already have (or possibly pick up another 26" frame).

Just so I understand, do you all believe the Cyclone 3 chainwheel system would be a better system? Would it be more efficient? More stable? More powerful?

Does anyone own this system and have no problem with the motor mounted so high up on the frame? From the look of it, it looks like I would be tearing up pant legs in that thing...

 

[deardancer3]

no experience with the high mount motor.

I prefer the looong wheelbase models like a semi recumbent or a Electra townie. that is the only style i have done. (3 times)

d

 

[Burtie]

I have made 3 very reliable cyclone based bikes, two of them using an adapted 1pc chainwheel kit, which put the motor in the triangle above the bottom bracket. (They also all use 3 speed hubs, Sram/Sachs dual drive)

I like this position for the motor because:
1) It is away from the water and muck off the road.
2) it allows you to use 3 mounting points, easily keeping the motor mounting rigid.
3) You can arrange the motor wires to exit at the bottom, easily solving any motor weather-proofing issues.


Motor size -how fast do you want to go ? (without pedling on flat road)
Cyclone 500w ~26mph (41kph)
Cyclone 1200w ~35mph (56kph)

you may have already seen the thread, but here it is:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9424


Pant shredding?? -just stick it in your boot/ sock/ bicycle clip/ dont wear any


cheers,
Burtie

 

[kentlim26]

i have make a relaible ebike for myself too, luckily for battery still is okay. travelling distance is still the same per charged 60km. i am using cyclone 900watts kit+ lifepo4. i will travel to the central business district just to get in there much cheaper by electric cost SGD "invisible ", compare today by travelling by public bus and more time wasted cost SG3.00 distance is
less then 12mins of travel. (public transport SG3.00 for 12mins) i can say that is very expensive to me. my ebike is abit faster.

my opioion is most reliable non hub is 3piece kit chain cyclone+ lifepo4 48v. rear spoket chain 22tooth, 24tooth, 32tooth. if you going a super up hill, this kit should work for you. what is your top speed do you want for you hilly area? it can give you easily 30km/h if i am not wrong for the 900watts. surly lift you up to the hill. myself got no problems until now, maybe im smaller size guy 65kg, i try to control and lower the speed when going up hill. i got my photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/kentlim26 give you the ideal how to build.

if you have tested the result please update here, i can learn more about these motors.

cheers
kentlim26

 

[robwilde]

Hi ,
I have the cyclone 1500watt 3 chainwheel kit with with reinforced crank 35amp continous control 48v battery..
This motor can handle massive amps upto 120a bursts.. controller can handle 72 volts aswell if i wanted..
It is powerful enough to be mounted in a motorbike frame and wheels

So 48 volts X 35 amps = 1680 watts continous on the flat My mates 900watt kit with 48volt and 25a continous control will go to be a 1200watt kit and this pulls 40mph+ So im hoping about 45ish....Scary..
However it can peak at 60 amps for 1 min bursts giving a power rating of 2880 watts ..
This kit NEEDS a chain guard like on the old school shopper bike also reinforced everything.. a very strong freestyle type chain that they use with the back pedal brake system . and a set of kevin keegans shin guards....
My bike weighs only 26 pounds alone and is Alloy the battery is 6 kg or 14 pounds which i will be carrying on my back in a bag .
The Plan is to keep the bike as light but as strong as possible .. Battery is only 10ah so at 35a it will only last me 15 mins.
but i have secret weapon 30a charger wow charges battery in 20 mins
the battery can discharge continous 75amps

BUT this bike is being built for speed hybrid kevlar lined tyres carbon fibre long mud guards
Hydrolic Disk Brakes front and rear.. Controller mounted in frame bag ..
Motor is getting a bracing bar between mounts welded to top crossbar to stop the frame flex and vibration .Also bars welded from bottom bracket area to middle of rear down bars to keep rear triangle tight..

Anyway back to reliability if all your eggs are in 1 basket like a hub kit and it goes wrong thats it .
However the cyclone kit at the higher end 650watt up has 4 components motor control throttle and crank.
each component can be swapped out super quick and cheaply ..and bought seperatly..
The 900watt kit from cyclone is the same as the 1200watt kit just diffrent voltage. input .36v X 25 amps =900 however give it 48 volts and it loves it 48 X 25 = 1200watts . Again this kit can handle much more my friend tells me ..
The actual controllers you get can handle 80 volts i have taken mine apart and checked it out link her for motors and controllers from cyclone. So 72 volts is a real possibility.. FUTURE
www.headline-motor.com is where the motors in cyclone kits come from .
i have almost found where all his bits that make the kits come from .....
i think if your looking for a non legal streethawk go CYCLONE 900 48v withbattery that can support 40+ amps constant discharge and you will be happy as larry ...and if you want to go on long journeys get a 24v battery 20ah this kit will become a 600 watt kit..
This is all in principle i have only seen the 900 convert to 1200 however lower voltages must also apply..
i will make a new post once bike is completed in a few weeks with its road test and speed test with a video aswell,,
Cyclone kit was £311
battery was £465
Chain wheel kits are far more fun but a hub motor is good for stealth and bad weather..

have fun and get a cyclone 3 chainwheel kit its like an 80cc motorbike engine on a mountain bike wwwoooohhoooo

 

[drguitar]

Thanks guys for all of your input. I will probably try to build this bike in the late winter so i will be back for more info and updates.

Take care