kmxtornado
10 kW
I don't need to know too much of the technical differences. Just need to know which one I have (if either) and therefore what to buy to replace the one I have. Are on controllers either one or the other? Mostly squarewave?
What is sinewave vs squarewave?
- Thread starter kmxtornado
- Start date
JackFlorey
100 kW
Controllers are either one or the other, yes. It's easy to tell with a scope. Harder to tell with Chinese controllers because you can't trust anything the ads say. The Phaserunner is an example of a good sine wave controller.kmxtornado said:
Sine wave units will be more expensive. It’s hard to tell the difference just by looking at it. If you’re replacing it, I would get a sine wave unit if you have the budget for one.
kmxtornado
10 kW
I think I answered my question. Squarewave ones work with all motors, but Sinewave ones only work with particular motors that are compatible. Looks like Sinewave also draws more power. Something I snatched from another website:
Both of these come with their own advantages and disadvantages. For instance, sine wave controllers are favored because of their lower noise production and greater efficiency when going uphill or when carrying a heavy load. These controllers also offer you smoother and more predictable control over general operations.
On the downside, sine wave controllers will cost you more and can only function with matched motors. They also consume much more power.
When it comes to square wave controllers, people prefer them as they are more affordable and for their ability to function with different motors. These provide higher efficiency during sudden braking or acceleration, as well as higher utilization of power voltage.
Some of their low points include high noise production and non-smooth or punched control. They are also less motor efficient when scaling hills.
I'll stick with a squarewave since I don't know for certain that my current one is compatible with sinewave. Also my setup is over 11 years old which makes me think I have the older technology being squarewave.
Both of these come with their own advantages and disadvantages. For instance, sine wave controllers are favored because of their lower noise production and greater efficiency when going uphill or when carrying a heavy load. These controllers also offer you smoother and more predictable control over general operations.
On the downside, sine wave controllers will cost you more and can only function with matched motors. They also consume much more power.
When it comes to square wave controllers, people prefer them as they are more affordable and for their ability to function with different motors. These provide higher efficiency during sudden braking or acceleration, as well as higher utilization of power voltage.
Some of their low points include high noise production and non-smooth or punched control. They are also less motor efficient when scaling hills.
I'll stick with a squarewave since I don't know for certain that my current one is compatible with sinewave. Also my setup is over 11 years old which makes me think I have the older technology being squarewave.
stancecoke
1 MW
Almost all BLDC motors are suitable for sinusoidal (or FOC) commutation. You can see that on the BEMF shape, the voltage waveform on the phase wires, if you turn the motor by hand.
Some motors produce a rectangle shaped BEMF, due to the geometry, but I never have seen one in reality.
FOC controllers are not more expensive than block controllers any more. See the very cheap Xiaomi M365 controller, it does FOC for about 30$...
FOC is much quieter than block commutation. A direct drive is completely noiseless with FOC. The Lishui or VESC (and several other of course) controllers can do sensorless FOC even.
regards
stancecoke
Some motors produce a rectangle shaped BEMF, due to the geometry, but I never have seen one in reality.
FOC controllers are not more expensive than block controllers any more. See the very cheap Xiaomi M365 controller, it does FOC for about 30$...
FOC is much quieter than block commutation. A direct drive is completely noiseless with FOC. The Lishui or VESC (and several other of course) controllers can do sensorless FOC even.
regards
stancecoke
kmxtornado said:
From what I've seen, a sinewave controller that has a sensorless option, switches to squarewave commutation when running sensorless. The compatibility issue may have to do with that aspect, so if you are running a regular BlDC motor with hall sensors, either square/trap or sine wave should work fine.
Sinewave controllers don't in general require matched motors. They may not work as well with some as with others, and with sensorless sinewave there may be the wrong kind of feedback from certain motors that make them work even less well.
FOC controllers (which are sinewave) require setting up the controller to match the motor to make it work optimally (or at all, in some cases), but they are a separate class of sinewave controller than the typical sinewave controllers (though they are becoming common and cheap).
If you have an oscilloscope you can use it to see the waveform your motor produces when you manually spin it, and get an idea if it is better driven by sine or trap controller. Most likely it will be closer to a sine than a squarewave; the few I ever checked were.
Some controllers do both sine and trap--the Grinfineon I have uses sinewave as long as the hall sensors in the motor work, and it has worked with each hubmotor I've tried it with. When sensors dont' work (or the motor doesn't have any) it reverts to trapezoidal drive instead of sine. Been using in sensored sine mode on the trike's leftside motor (presently an MXUS 3K 450x) for a few years now.
Power usage / efficiency: I don't see a noticeable difference on my SB Cruiser trike with one vs the other for a comparable sized trap vs sine controller in the 30-40A range, but I have not had any identical (other than trap vs sine) set of controllers to test this exactly with.
FWIW, the site google says your quote is from
https://electric-biking.com/electric-bike-controllers/
looks more like a "spam" / sale-generation / SEO site than something intended to gather useful information into one place, so I wouldn't put too deep a stock in whatever they have to say. They didn't even proofread it well enough to catch various obvious mistakes.
FOC controllers (which are sinewave) require setting up the controller to match the motor to make it work optimally (or at all, in some cases), but they are a separate class of sinewave controller than the typical sinewave controllers (though they are becoming common and cheap).
If you have an oscilloscope you can use it to see the waveform your motor produces when you manually spin it, and get an idea if it is better driven by sine or trap controller. Most likely it will be closer to a sine than a squarewave; the few I ever checked were.
Some controllers do both sine and trap--the Grinfineon I have uses sinewave as long as the hall sensors in the motor work, and it has worked with each hubmotor I've tried it with. When sensors dont' work (or the motor doesn't have any) it reverts to trapezoidal drive instead of sine. Been using in sensored sine mode on the trike's leftside motor (presently an MXUS 3K 450x) for a few years now.
Power usage / efficiency: I don't see a noticeable difference on my SB Cruiser trike with one vs the other for a comparable sized trap vs sine controller in the 30-40A range, but I have not had any identical (other than trap vs sine) set of controllers to test this exactly with.
FWIW, the site google says your quote is from
https://electric-biking.com/electric-bike-controllers/
looks more like a "spam" / sale-generation / SEO site than something intended to gather useful information into one place, so I wouldn't put too deep a stock in whatever they have to say. They didn't even proofread it well enough to catch various obvious mistakes.
kmxtornado
10 kW
amberwolf said:
Thanks for tho the warning!
Similar threads
- Question
