What is the best offroad climber kit?

[astron]

Hi everybody,
I have plans to buy an electric conversion kit for my bike this or next week, but have just found out that there are too many different kits out there...

Basically I want a kit for offroad use, I don´t care if it´s not high speed because what I really need is a climber that can move 100kg (220lbs) through steep hills (some of them around 12 or 13%).
In fact, my idea is to use the motor only when I need to climb so I would use my legs for the rest of the time. If I could reach an autonomy of 25-30 miles that way it would be perfect!

After reading the Mathieu Beauregard´s review about the Wilderness Engergy kit (http://pages.videotron.com/guizzmo/), I´ve thought the WE BL-36 brushless kit could be a good buy as it´s only $450, then I could remove the SLA batteries and install a much lighter Nimh battery, boosting the power from 36V to 48V as Mathieu did.
I could buy 40 Nimh cells of 1.2V 10000mAh to build the battery for about $290, so the entire system would be $740.

I can only see one problem with this kit: it can only be mounted on the front wheel. As I want the motor to climb I guess it would be better on the rear wheel... but not sure if that´s really a problem.

What do you think? Is it a good idea or should I go for a different kit?

 

[deecanio]

Hi Astron,

what is your definition of off road and what bike are you putting it on?
you will need some good batts to deliver the power and have the ah for range too.
personally i would go for rear wheel,you will have to consider things like how you want your gears to pan out etc - again would need to see the donor bike to check the forks and dropouts.
the guys will give you better technical advice but those that like torque ie. Ypedal/me/xyster/knoxie have gone for the smaller rear wheel (20") making it better than the 26" in this aspect,but lower top speed ....if you consider 30mph+ slow?
there are many setups to suit many bikes/needs so put up a picture if you can - i think what you want is easily achievable but look into all thats on offer first and take advice from these dudes

8)


cheers


D

 

[astron]

Hi deecanio,
check this image for my definition of offroad 8) :

The bike is a MTB, 26" wheels, aluminium frame, suspension fork (ok, I already know I should use a steel fork if I buy a front wheel motor). I´ll post a picture later.

I´ll buy a new bike if necessary anyway... what should I consider before buying it?
I know it would better to use 20" wheels to climb, but... am I the only one who finds those little wheels ridiculous for a big man? (I´ve been using 26" all my life!)


BTW, the hills I want to climb aren`t so steep as the ones you see in that picture!

 

[xyster]

How important is bike weight to you? What's your budget? Do you just want some assistance getting up these hills, or do you want a light motorcycle level of power?

A system better suited for your more specialized needs can be obtained by buying the parts individually, rather than as a kit.

As far as hill-climbing, light motorbike hubmotors, there's really only 2 good options IMO:
1) A rear crystalyte 5304 or 5305. I have a 5304 in a 20" wheel. Top speed at 80 volts is 40mph. With 2800 watts on tap, it takes extreme hills of >15% to slow the bike below 20mph at full throttle -- no pedaling.
http://www.poweridestore.com/Brushless-Motors/Series-5000-Motors
The "X5" motor weighs 25lbs. This motor can handle 5000 watts without overheating -- you'll probably want to use at least 2000 watts (48 volts 40 amps or 72 volts 35-40 amps) with this motor.

2) An 8lb rear BMC Puma will also do the job with much less weight:
http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/electric-bike-motor-p-163.html
But at this time there are additional challenges adapting the Puma to run higher-than-stock power, as it sounds like you might want to do. Also, the Puma's nylon gears tend to wear out and begin slipping when operated at 1000 watts or more. There is a new Puma with metal gears in the pipeline. The puma can handle about 2000 watts without overheating.

For serious hill climbing, a 5304 in a 20" wheel or a 5305 in a 26" wheel, paired with a 72volt 40amp or 72v50 amp controller, is your best bet at this time if you want light motorcycle power. If the weight of the motor is prohibitive, you may wish to wait for the new, metal-geared Puma. If $1500-$2500 for a complete system is prohibitive, a lower power WE kit or a cheaper, 400-series crystalyte kit will help get you up the hills, but these motors will overheat if you try to feed them the "rocket to the top" 2000+ watts.

The store below is the first, and right now only, store to carry controllers with much better, more reliable components called "IRFB4110 MOSFETs":
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/

I'd definitely spend the extra money for one of those two crystalyte controllers. It will work with either the X5, 400-series, or the Puma, but wiring a crystalyte controller to the Puma requires some modification (it's not quite plug-n-play).

The battery pack is the hardest decision, requiring the most study on your part....

 

[Doctorbass]

Welcome here Astron!

I have a 5305 and i use 56 A123 cells from many Dewalt 36V nano pack.

I can ensore you that this hub motor combined with a controller with the 4110 mosfet upgrade + high current and high volt battery is the key!

The 5305 have more wore turn on each coil 5 turn and the5304 have 4 turns. The more turn you have, the more torque you will het but it will go less faster. To get 40mph i need 86V. The 5304 is the greatest hub motor for high speed and having great torque. The 5305 is the torquest hub motor you can get. With higher than 60A current, a 5305 would be a real beast!
with higher wire turn on each coil of the motor, you need less current for the same power, but need higher voltage. The less current you run, the smaller wire you will need. BUT YOU CAN USE 8 gauge ANYWAY

Doc

 

[Geebee]

If you really want to do off-road MTB style you need low speed torque for the technical areas as well as good assist at speed.
Sorry but a direct drive hub for this job is IMO wrong, use a geared hub or BB drive, a direct drive at low revs and steep hills will suck so much juice to do nothing. (before I get flamed real technical tracks will have you at sub walking pace picking a track between rocks and climbing 40% slopes at the same time)
The BB drive will probally be best if there are really steep hills and tech bits but otherwise a geared hub will be fine.
A 250w BB drive will climb you pictured terrain assuming the bike is geared appropriately with light pedal, speed will be low but so would current consumption.

If you want an off-road motocross (motorbike) bike go with the 5 series.

Off-road front wheel drive will be an issue on steep hills been there done that. Great most of the time but tends to fail in traction just when you need it most.

 

[deecanio]

Hi Astron,

wow nice pic, the hills there look major!!
Xy covered the tech side pretty well and all of us have our own opinions on what will suit you best.
the x5 can take most power but remember you will have to mount the adequate cells to power it well all increasing the already heavy weight of the motor (25lbs) you could go with one and you would be pleased i think but you could get great performance from a new puma with steel gears too, especially for low end grunt.
A lot of your decisions will come down to how much your prepared to spend especially on batts.
IMO the X5 or puma will serve you best - with good cells and a decent ampage controller they will both work well.
Just as a matter of interest whereabouts are you?
If i lived somewhere that looks that remote i would probably get a gasser if the law wasn't an issue (watch me get flamed for that) but the only reason i have gone electric is i ride off road in the forest and a gasser is a definate no-no.
Go with rear wheel.
if you think that 20" wheels look silly (you may be a big bloke) then you have to consider the extra power to get the same grunt from a 26"
I actually love my 20's and will only go to 24's if i can get enough power not to notice the loss of torque.

Cheers


D

 

[Miles]

In fact, my idea is to use the motor only when I need to climb so I would use my legs for the rest of the time.

Guys,

So, how much drag is there on the X5, sans power?

How effective is the Puma freewheel?

 

[Drunkskunk]

For what you want, the Puma will give you more torque and more climbing power for less battery power used.

There is some drag on the 530X's, but not much. The Puma freewheel is as effectave as the regular bike wheel freewheel.

X5305s are plenty powerfull, but they are heavy, and need more amps to pull the same torque at slow speeds as the Geared hub'd Puma.

You can put 2 pumas on your bike for maximum climbing power. The lighter weight of the puma and its smaller battery requirements means you'll have a more manuverable bike on the trails.

I feel like a traitor saying this, but... If absolute climbing power is your goal, then a hub motor isn't realy the ideal. A motor driven through the chain gives you much better power selection.

 

[fechter]

Welcome.

Your situation is difficult, as there aren't many good coices.
Getting 25mi on flat ground might be doable, but on hills, forget it unless you get much larger battery capacity.

Being able to use the bike gears would be a big advantage in hilly areas.
Something like a Cyclone kit might work. They are limited in power, but if you want long range, you can't use too much power.

Personally, I'd probably go for a Puma, but they are still new and not fully proven. Not only that, they are not readily available in the US.

 

[astron]

Thanks for all the replies and the assistance.
After considering all your suggestions and gathering some info, all my initial options are reduced to only a pair of kits/motors, which is a good thing!

If i lived somewhere that looks that remote i would probably get a gasser if the law wasn't an issue (watch me get flamed for that) but the only reason i have gone electric is i ride off road in the forest and a gasser is a definate no-no.

deecanio, I don´t live in such a remote place LOL , I just like to go to remote areas everytime I have the opportunity. As I like to escape from the noise and stress of the city, I´d never use a gasser either! Someday maybe I could consider buying a real electric dirt bike anyway... something like the Blade XT, which is a very nice and extremely powerful off-road beast... and no more noisy than a RC toy!!

Your situation is difficult, as there aren't many good coices.
Getting 25mi on flat ground might be doable, but on hills, forget it unless you get much larger battery capacity.

fechter, sure I didn´t explain it clearly enough. I´d like to reach a total autonomy of 25-30 miles, but I´ll be using the motor only to climb (and I don´t think that would be more than 50% of the overall route). So probably I wouldn´t be using the motor assistance for more than 15 mi.



First of all, I´ve ruled out the Crystalyte motors, this solution is too heavy (and expensive by the way), I really need something lighter and as drag-free as possible, so it seems my best options are the Puma and the Cyclone (I´ve just read the Cyclone-500 review).
About the Puma, it seems that there isn´t much documentation (reviews, specs, info, etc.), neither shops selling spare parts on the net. But the store selling this kit is based in UK, which is good news for me... as I live in Spain I wouldn´t have to pay any importation taxes at all!
I guess I should wait till they release the new and improved metal geared motor though... hmm, I really don´t want to wait too much... I´ll have a lot of free time the next month of December and want to have my ebike for then!
On the other hand, the Cyclone is in Taiwan, but they´re not expensive and looks like an efficient solution for climbing.

So now I have these 3 options:
A) Wait for the new Puma to be released.
B) Buy the Cyclone.
C) Buy and install the Cyclone, then if I need more torque I could add a Puma + extra lipo batteries later. Now that would be a Puma-Cyclone ebike, sure I could climb with that, right? 8) ...or maybe should I expect any problem if I try to install both systems on the same bike?

BTW, do you know the Cyclone 1050W?
I thought the most powerful cyclone was the 500, but have just found out that there are also a 650W and a 1050W motor. These are the specs:


http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm

Cyclone 500W: (DC 24V Brushless motor)
* Max speed 3600Rpm
* Rated speed 2500Rpm
* Rated output 500W
* Max output 700W
* Rated Torque 20Kg-cm
* Max Torque 42Kg-cm
* Rated Amp 24A
* Insulation class E class
* Driver Built in
* Control method PWM
*Ambient temperature -15C~40C *Efficiency: 97%
* weight 2.2Kg

Cyclone 650W: (DC 24V Brushless motor)
* Max speed 2500Rpm
* Rated speed 2050Rpm
* Rated output 650W
* Max output 1020.5W
* Rated Torque 42Kg-cm
* Max Torque 63.3Kg-cm
* Rated Amp 33.37A
* Insulation class E class
* External Driver
* Control method PWM
*Ambient temperature -15C~40C *Efficiency: 94.89%
* weight 4Kg


http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc48.htm

Cyclone 1050W: (DC 48V Brushless motor)
* Max speed 3223Rpm
* Rated speed 4111Rpm
* Rated output 1050 W
* Max output 1855.9W
* Rated Torque 83.46Kg-cm
* Max Torque 98.36Kg-cm
* Rated Amp 29.52A
* Insulation class E class
* External Driver
* Control method PWM
*Ambient temperature -15C~40C *Efficiency: 93.23%
* weight 4.8 Kg

Where could I find the Puma´s specs to compare?
Could the Cyclone-1050 + lipo be a good choice?
It seems to have plenty of torque power, and the website claims it has "up hill ability up to 21 degrees".

 

[Drunkskunk]

I'm dubious of the cyclone's claims: **Efficiency: 97% ** .... copper wire has an efficency of 97% So the rest of the motor would have to have ZERO frictional losses from the gears and bearings, ZERO cogging losses, ZERO noise losses, since sound takes power to create. ZERO aerodynamic losses, meaning it didn't disturb the air at all while spinning. Essentualy, you would have to be able to set the motor spinning by hand, then come back in 10,00 years and find it hadn't lost a single RPM.

There are a few specalized motors that have gotten in the high 90's for efficancy, most of them use exotic alloys of silver/copper or gold/copper in there windings.

In my experiance, companies that make one outragious claim tend to make more than just one, so I would treat all their specs as very optimistic at best. If they are based in Tiawan, they aren't subject to the same "truth in advertising" laws that the EU and north America enjoy.

I'm not saying they won't be a good motor, but it can't be what they claim it is. Caveat Emptor.

 

[fechter]

I doubt their efficiency claims too, especially when you include the gear reduction.

A 1kw motor will climb very nicely. I didn't know they made them that large. There have been issues with chains falling off etc., but if you get everything aligned correctly, it should be great.

No reason you couldn't have a Cyclone AND a Puma

 

[Miles]

The principle of the Cyclone is fine - the way it's implemented isn't so good.

The front freewheel is just a cheap scooter freewheel and isn't really robust enough for the torque levels you get at the pedals.

The motors are just standard form and their length requires that long bottom bracket axles be used, in order to give sufficient clearance for the pedals.

This is laughable: http://www.cyclone-tw.com/images/1000Wbike.jpg

The high-speed/high-reduction-ratio gearbox can be a bit noisy.

 

[Drunkskunk]

The principle of the Cyclone is fine - the way it's implemented isn't so good.

The front freewheel is just a cheap scooter freewheel and isn't really robust enough for the torque levels you get at the pedals.

The motors are just standard form and their length requires that long bottom bracket axles be used, in order to give sufficient clearance for the pedals.

This is laughable: http://www.cyclone-tw.com/images/1000Wbike.jpg

The high-speed/high-reduction-ratio gearbox can be a bit noisy.

Thats pretty laughable. I like the peddle extention on the left side. Nice. the mark of quality there. I wounder if they supply duct tape and bailing wire with the kit, too?

It looks like the kind of thing you might build as a father/son project in the garage over a weekend, from old used motorcycle parts and scrap metal.

Its embarasing to think that someone's first impression of electric bikes might come from seeing one of these.

 

[astron]

Ok, I´ll forget about the Cyclone then... I´d have loved to hear from more people using that motor anyway, but it seems that almost everybody go for a Crystalyte or a Puma (this must be something like PC vs MAC I guess)
This is going to be my first e-bike so I´m not so "purist" or expert as you, but I don´t want to make a mistake either.

So now I´m already figuring out where to buy the Puma (if I finally buy this one, of course). Not sure if I should wait for the new version...
Does anyone know when it will be out?
How much it will cost?

Hmm, I also read it´s going to be noiser than the current version (and this one is already supposed to be a noisy motor). I don´t like how that sounds: slightly noisy + even more noisy = really noisy bitch. Maybe the motor buzzing wouldn´t be audible at the city or the road, but probably everybody at a radius of 30 meters would hear it when you´re riding on a rural track, right?

Also there seems to be different dealers selling this kit:
http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/electric-bike-motor-p-163.html
http://www.thesuperkids.com/500wabmcelbi.html
http://www.teamhybrid.co.uk

Are all the same kit/motor??
The pictures looks different... btw, why the hell do you call it PUMA? The sellers don´t even mention that word...

Teamhybrid are in UK but they´re really expensive (or maybe they´re actually cheap and the GB pound is the expensive one, not sure). I could order the kit from the US, pay the shipping costs and taxes and still it would be around $90-$100 cheaper than if I order from UK.
Is the teamhybrid motor better in any way than the others?


BTW, thesuperkids.com also have another motor called BMC. Is it the old version of the Puma? It looks like a totally different thing...

-1000 Watt BMC - 36v or 48 Volt - Electric Bike Motor Upgrade Kit - Free S/H:
http://www.thesuperkids.com/10wabmc36vor.html

-600 Watt BMC "High Speed" Currie Electric Bike Motor (Free S/H):
http://www.thesuperkids.com/600wabmchsps.html

What do you think about the BMC (torque, efficiency, noise, etc.)?
Is there any review about it?

 

[fechter]

The other BMC motor is the same one I have on my scooter. Getting it to work on a bike is another story. It's not a hub motor, so you'd have to figure out how to gear it down to the right level.
See: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=582


I have no clue why they call it a Puma. Last time I checked, neither TheSuperKids or Texas Electric Bikes had any in stock. There seems to be quite a few variations on the motors as well. Maytag's bike has the one stamped BMC.
See: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=541

I rode it and was very impressed. It is very quiet despite having gears.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Well, the Crystalyte VS Puma debate is more of a Mercedes sedan VS Jeep debate. Do you want to travel in quiet comfort, or do you want to be able to take a hard trip through the back woods. Personaly, I plan to build a puma powered mountianbike as my next bike, just for climbing hills and tackling nature trails when I go camping, but nothing can replace my crystalyte for running around town, or riding through the countryside.

Puma's aren't that loud. in perspective, a Puma will be quieter than a brushed motor, or quieter than a non hub chain drive motor. its just that a non geared hub motor like the Crystalyte is so silent, that you'll be anoyed by the sound of your tires, or your shoelace slapping against the side of your shoe in the wind.

The 3 motors you have listed aren't Pumas, they're other brands. They might be fine, but none of them give enough information to know for sure.

BMC makes the puma, but thier main motor is the one you found. its a chain drive, Similer to the cyclone in princaple, but Vastly superior, in the way tha crusing the Autoban in a Rolls Royce is superior to trying the autoban in a 20 year old Yugo with 2 diffrent color fenders, a milk crate for a seat, and no radio. For pure hillclimbing, the chain drive motors are the best, but actualy building the bike for it takes some skill.

 

[astron]

If they´re other brands, where could I buy an authentic Puma then? Any website?