What is the current largest capacity 21700 cell right now? - 2023 December 2nd.

[leffex]

What is the current largest capacity 21700 cell right now? - 2023 December 2nd.

To my knowledge the largest cells in the 21700 size should be somewhere between 5500-6000mah.

Please specify the rated amps if possible

example
Name: Panasonic PF
Rated: 10A
Capacity: 2900MAH

 

[chuyskywalker]

5000mah; Samsung 50S

 

[999zip999]

25amp.
The real question is what do you want it for what motor what controller at what amps and how big is your space.
There are higher power 21700 cells.

 

[leffex]

25amp.
The real question is what do you want it for what motor what controller at what amps and how big is your space.
There are higher power 21700 cells.

75v controller max 100A maybe and 18s x 100AH battery capacity. Form factor as small as possible so if there are higher capacity cells it really helps to make it smaller as the 21700 cells already do in a sense but I would like more.

 

[Simon676]

Vapcell F60 (FEB 6000mah) is the highest capacity 21700 on the market currently (not the Samsung 50S, Samsung even sells a higher capacity one themselves, the 53G 5300mah).

Vapcell has been getting a lot of the newest cell tech to consumers by rebranding cells from other brands and selling them in retailers. They have the F56, F58, G58, F60, which has been independently tested to reach those respective capacities. They have the N38 and N40 18650 cells as well which are the highest capacity 18650 cells on the market.

Do note that for high-drain applications you'll be better off with something with lower resistance. Also think the F58 and F60 21700 cells are better quality than the 18650 cells, so would opt for those. There's the LG M58T as well but that only gets around 5600mah from what I've seen and is fairly high resistance, seems like an overall worse cell than the Vapcell F58/F60. BAK has a 5300mah cell as well. Pajda has probably the best testing for these cells available currently right here on endless sphere so would look at that.

Link to some tests:

Bench Test Results: Vapcell F38 - 10A 3800mAh 18650

These tests below only note my personal opinion for the ESTIMATED ratings for the batteries I tested at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, Murata, LG, Panasonic, Molicel, or Sanyo can change at any time! This...

www.e-cigarette-forum.com

Bench Test Results: Vapcell N40 - 10A 4000mAh 18650

These tests below only note my personal opinion for the ESTIMATED ratings for the batteries I tested at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, Murata, LG, Panasonic, Molicel, or Sanyo can change at any time! This...

www.e-cigarette-forum.com

Bench Test Results: Vapcell F56 - 12.5A 5600mAh 21700

These tests below only note my personal opinion for the ESTIMATED ratings for the batteries I tested at the time I tested them. Any battery that is not a genuine Samsung, Sony, Murata, LG, Panasonic, Molicel, or Sanyo can change at any time! This...

www.e-cigarette-forum.com

Cycle life tests of High Energy density cylindrical cells

Yes, you got me :) Maybe such small explanation on table jpg? Which is already travelling through internet alone and some people will be confused ;)

endless-sphere.com

 

[leffex]

Thanks

The availability to buy them is of course important too as we always read about these great inventions never making it past the news.

My plan is also to have the battery removable so to say make use of the most capacity cells as well as having the most ah in the pack to make the day. It is of crucial importance to save my sweet time.

Time is money for me. So I'm trying to figure out which cells to use. Earlier Samsung 40T may have had some problems, my guesses from my sources and if it is the same chemistry as the 30Q I think I'm not really happy with that quality or the uncertainity of it.

F38 had min capacity of 3650mah and the N40 was specced min. cap of 3850mah from a quick search.

 

[docw009]

Knowing what's possible, and trying to buy one as a hobbyist are quite different. Add a third constraint of affordability. I was quite happy with LG ML50T's and Samsung 50E's that I found on sale in 2022. Lucky to get them under $4 USD/cell at the time, they are higher today. Rated at 5AH and giving about 90% of that in real life ebike usage. I built them as 13S-3P's, which is all the capacity I need.

 

[leffex]

I just made some calculations.

I can get currently get
M58 for 3,95 each
M48 for 2,45 each
30T for 1,85 each
40T for 4,5 each

Packs are different price, size, capacity and weight
M58: 995€. 18,1kg (18s14p
M48: 738€. 20,8kg (18s17p
40T: ---- too expensive
30T: 864€ 31,8kg (18s26p

Current battery 65ah
Panasonic PF: 0€ / free. 20,7kg (18s24p

 

[999zip999]

Source and sourcing I had a custom triangle pack of Samsung 40t 21700 20s6p so 24ah. No I had it made at bicycle motor works. By Matt. It never got over 19ah. Plus I had to send it back because a whole series of cells had to be replaced at this point he put a Bluetooth BMS on. Never used over 80 amps.
So did he get counterfeit cells.
So it's very important where you inquire your cells from. Oh 1,200usd. Next time I need a battery I'm going to get a spot welder.

 

[neptronix]

Eve Battery supposedly has 5.8ah cells in mass production
EVE Releases the 21700 40PL Tabless Cell and 21700 58E High Capacity Energy Cell-News-EVE



.. i can't, however, find a single one for sale.

290wh/kg is pretty nice. A true 3C, i doubt it!

 

[neptronix]

As far as sizing a pack of these cells, they advertise 3C, but no way in hell would you want to run them in that condition.
1C is still pretty saggy, at 0.5C, finally we start to get liveable voltage drop ( more voltage drop = less battery efficiency and more heat ).

Notice that the line ends early, meaning we either overheated, or the voltage sag got too intense and we tripped LVC, from 10A to 20A. So this range is basically unusable, and possibly dangerous without liquid cooling if sustained for a high period of time.

These would be a very good choice for a bike with a big range, and low to medium level power requirements.
For example if you are running 20A but also have about 20AH of battery ( 1C )

 

[999zip999]

Eve 5800 cell 3c so 15amp ?

 

[neptronix]

5.8 x 3C = 17.4 amps
No comment on that cell's performance until we see discharge graphs at various C rates.

Likely it is grossly overrated just the same, but, should perform decently at a 0.5C average.

 

[Simon676]

Eve Battery supposedly has 5.8ah cells in mass production
EVE Releases the 21700 40PL Tabless Cell and 21700 58E High Capacity Energy Cell-News-EVE

View attachment 343700

.. i can't, however, find a single one for sale.

290wh/kg is pretty nice. A true 3C, i doubt it!

I did actually happen to notice that one on the Queen Battery website when I was looking at the EVE 58E last week, I'll link it to you here:

EVE 21700 58E 3.6V 5800mah 3C battery cell INR21700/58E - QueenBattery

Application: Power toolsGardening toolsElectric two-wheelersVacuum cleaner Sweeping robotOutdoor ESS

queenbattery.com.cn

How to buy ? - QueenBattery

ok

queenbattery.com.cn

They are quite known for their QB26800 6800mah battery so should be reputable.

 

[neptronix]

Interesting, didn't know there was a vendor!

Another note about EVE, apparently BMW has contracted with them for batteries.
https://www.energy-storage.news/industry-updates/eve-to-build-plant-to-supply-bmw-electric-vehicles-in-hungary/

Maybe these are decent cells, in reality, if they can produce something up to a luxury carmaker's standards, IDK.

 

[Pajda]

Interesting, didn't know there was a vendor!

QB is trusted vendor, EVE 58E hasn't been listed in their December price list yet, so I think it will be available after the New year at the earliest.

Another note about EVE, apparently BMW has contracted with them for batteries.
https://www.energy-storage.news/industry-updates/eve-to-build-plant-to-supply-bmw-electric-vehicles-in-hungary/

Maybe these are decent cells, in reality, if they can produce something up to a luxury carmaker's standards, IDK.

EVE is a very good manufacturer that not only was one of the first who master the mass production of 46xx format tabless cylindrical cells (Tesla/Panasonic still have big troubles with it), but even mastered the tabless design in the smaller 21700.

And as far as BMW is concerned, their problem is that they not only don't have their own battery cell technology, but more importantly, no hope of catching up the Chinese battery competitors in the near future with their own development.

 

[BlueSwordM]

Tesla doesn't have issues anymore with their tabless 4680 cells IIRC.

Now, the trick question is: who will be the winner when it comes to advancing high energy battery storage?
With the advancements in XHE anodes, cathodes and dry electrodes, it is critical to invest in taking all of the research and implementing it all commercially.

 

[Pajda]

Tesla doesn't have issues anymore with their tabless 4680 cells IIRC.

I hear rumors that they recently even stopped the Model 3/Y production with 4680 packs and they switched back to 21700 packs. Panasonic has reportedly been failing to ramp up production as originally expected. Thus, the problem is not in the cell technology, but in their production line, where it seems that EVE and BAK currently master the tabless production technology better.

 

[Simon676]

Interesting, didn't know there was a vendor!

Another note about EVE, apparently BMW has contracted with them for batteries.
https://www.energy-storage.news/industry-updates/eve-to-build-plant-to-supply-bmw-electric-vehicles-in-hungary/

Maybe these are decent cells, in reality, if they can produce something up to a luxury carmaker's standards, IDK.

EVE makes great batteries. Their C33 and C40 lineup of LFP batteries are great too, widely available cylindrical cells with 180 Wh/kg.

 

[Simon676]

Can I just say how much I love this forum already by the way? This definitely feels like my kind of people haha.

 

[leffex]

Right now I have some smal side projects only as proof of concept and I may need to buy a handfull of cells to make them. I'm maybe leaning towards the 21700, 30T.

 

[Simon676]

Right now I have some smal side projects only as proof of concept and I may need to buy a handfull of cells to make them. I'm maybe leaning towards the 21700, 30T.

Would definitely look at the Molicel P42A and Molicel P45B if you can find either at reasonable prices over a 30T