What the heck is wrong with UPP packs!?

[Tommm]

I don't know if anyone saw, but UPP posted a response video making some claims counter to Louis' statements in his video. They make a good point in that there isn't any evidence in the video showing their battery mounted to his bike. All there is in it is his testimony and video of a burning bike.

[youtube=AdoJkz34qOQ]Here's UPP's video.[/youtube]

*Disclaimer: I just walked into this issue, so if you know something I don't feel free to share it. I'm not here to support UPP, I don't own anything they make nor have I dealt with them, just wanted to point out a counter-argument I found.

The point of the video was that they asked him to provide some pictures and evidence about what happened so they can use that material to contact their own insurance company. Louis refused to do this, so he didn't get a refund.

I respect the idea of going in front of the camera and explaining it. But having bought 3 packs from UPP, their batteries aren't really meant for anything more powerful than a bbshd, too many corners cut, and their BMS are less than stellar too.

 

[tomjasz]

Another fire caused by a UPP battery cost one reseller's insurance $50,000. SInce Rechie and UPP are insulated from claims in USA courts the mom-and-pop eBike sellers' insurance took the hit. The battery was sold to a party that then resold on eBay to the third party where the fire severely damaged a home.

There are more. No one here would build with nickel-plated steel connections, but that's what UPP delivers.

Several resellers report higher than normal failure rates. And UPP did squat to support their USA resellers and left resellers to cover warranties.

UPP COULD build a decent battery pack, but that pesky profit margin leaves them to cut corners. Those 52V Hailong packs are a potential nightmare with cells crammed in contrary to good build techniques!

 

[tomjasz]

The point of the video was that they asked him to provide some pictures and evidence about what happened so they can use that material to contact their own insurance company. Louis refused to do this, so he didn't get a refund.

UPP has refused to make reparations even when the facts were incontrovertible.

 

[dequinox]

Yeah it is sort of weird that he mentions insurance in the video, but apparently it covers nothing their resellers send out.

I get what you mean about the cell spacing above... that's pretty bad.

Also, I don't see how they are saving all that much by going to nickel coated steel... plated 5mm strip from amazon costs around $0.25/ft vs $0.39/ft of 99.6% pure nickel in the same width? How many linear feet could be in a battery pack? Up to 20' let's say? That's a total material cost difference of $2.80. Not worth someone's house burning down in the profit margin in my opinion. :?

 

[Tommm]

Yeah it is sort of weird that he mentions insurance in the video, but apparently it covers nothing their resellers send out.

I get what you mean about the cell spacing above... that's pretty bad.

Also, I don't see how they are saving all that much by going to nickel coated steel... plated 5mm strip from amazon costs around $0.25/ft vs $0.39/ft of 99.6% pure nickel in the same width? How many linear feet could be in a battery pack? Up to 20' let's say? That's a total material cost difference of $2.80. Not worth someone's house burning down in the profit margin in my opinion. :?

They get it much cheaper than you do. The difference must be 2x or similar, and with another 5 corners cut with similar savings, their price becomes competitive with the rest of the junk sold on ali/ebay.

 

[dequinox]

I want clear that my assumption was the markup would be equivalent for both materials relatively speaking at the manufacturers pricing. Then again, if it's marked up via % of wholesale cost I suppose the gap would be a bit wider... But even at the retail level the difference is still minimal. I'd be willing to pay for better material if I knew they didn't use plated steel.

 

[Tommm]

I want clear that my assumption was the markup would be equivalent for both materials relatively speaking at the manufacturers pricing. Then again, if it's marked up via % of wholesale cost I suppose the gap would be a bit wider... But even at the retail level the difference is still minimal. I'd be willing to pay for better material if I knew they didn't use plated steel.

For my pack, I asked for nickel and they did nickel (along with a few other adjustments). But by default they ship you the china special.

 

[neptronix]

I love how their response is basically 'look, we're a real company! and we have certifications' instead of mentioning any design features that make the battery safer.

The video is more of a dodge than anything else and makes me respect a vendor even less.

 

[dequinox]

For my pack, I asked for nickel and they did nickel (along with a few other adjustments). But by default they ship you the china special.

That's something I wasn't aware of, and that's good that they're willing. It seems to me that, the cheap BMS, and the lackluster packaging (at least in some cases) are the major drawbacks thus far. Looks like they're able to mitigate one, but it seems to me doing it on everything would be the better move.

I love how their response is basically 'look, we're a real company! and we have certifications' instead of mentioning any design features that make the battery safer. The video is more of a dodge than anything else and makes me respect a vendor even less.

That's why I wasn't engaging in apologetics here. They didn't dive very deep into their quality control, and the certs on the wall are in Chinese so us westerners don't know what it means exactly. I do still think they make a good point in that Louis didn't show any evidence of the pack on the bike. I don't know his character as a youtuber so I am not concluding that he's a shill or anything.

 

[neptronix]

I've been watching Louis' videos for quite a while. He's not the sort to make accusations without a good case. And very intellectually honest otherwise.

There's surely footage of him riding his bike with a UPP pack on it in numerous videos if you want more evidence that this is a UPP battery.

 

[dequinox]

I appreciate the input, as the UPP issue affects my advice to others. I've had friends and family come to me for ebike advice... and budget is always a concern. So far I've not pointed anyone to the super-cheap, simply because of the general risk. I've only advised one other person what battery to buy, and I pointed them to EM3EV. That had a wire burn out, but that was on the hailong mount, not the battery pack or case itself. I think their shark-packs are generally well regarded for the money.

I've been watching Louis' videos for quite a while. He's not the sort to make accusations without a good case. And very intellectually honest otherwise.

There's surely footage of him riding his bike with a UPP pack on it in numerous videos if you want more evidence that this is a UPP battery.

 

[tomjasz]

I've been watching Louis' videos for quite a while. He's not the sort to make accusations without a good case. And very intellectually honest otherwise.

There's surely footage of him riding his bike with a UPP pack on it in numerous videos if you want more evidence that this is a UPP battery.

Louis did do something I'd never have done. 72V battery and an external controller on his BBSHD.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

 

[tomjasz]

Luna’s potted batteries?

Liquid_Wolf.JPG

 

[qwerkus]

Not sure what the fuss is. It seems clear to me that if you buy discounted chinese batteries, you get discounted chinese quality. When I get a pack from china, I only care about which cells are used and if the box will fit the bike frame. The latter beeing the sole reason why to buy in china at all: some bikes have special pack dimensions that you can only find in china.
Once it arrives, I basically rebuild the entire thing with a decent bms and better serial connections. I would never recommend buying a pack from chinese and just plugging it in. Apart from em3ev, all packs from china I've seen have the same problems: too many parallel connections, way too few serial ones, overusage of silicone glue to waterproof everything and usually an underdimensioned bms buried so deep into that multi layer sandwich of fish paper, shrink wrap and cushions that it will overheat in no time.

 

[tomjasz]

Once it arrives, I basically rebuild the entire thing with a decent bms and better serial connections.

Seriuosly? We expect battery pack buyers to buy and rebuild their new pack? Sadly n00bs buying from UPP haven't a clue as to how and what to order. We know the issues and are smart enough to specify how we want a pack built. Not so with scores, if not hundreds of uneducated battery buyers.

Sadly some here forget they were once n00bs.

 

[qwerkus]

Once it arrives, I basically rebuild the entire thing with a decent bms and better serial connections.

Seriuosly? We expect battery pack buyers to buy and rebuild their new pack? Sadly n00bs buying from UPP haven't a clue as to how and what to order. We know the issues and are smart enough to specify how we want a pack built. Not so with scores, if not hundreds of uneducated battery buyers.

Sadly some here forget they were once n00bs.

In many ways, I still consider myself a beginner, compared to some gurus around here building their ride from scratch. Still: when I need something new I have no clue about, I usually first figure out a reputable manufacturer, and pay the premium for a good product. Then I study it, and only once I figured the most important aspects out am I moving towards more arcade diy solutions. If you're new in the ebike world, buy packs from ebikes. ca, luna or em3ev. Plenty of good solutions there, and the premium is really small compared to china. Also, keep in mind that all manufacturers of quality cells (Sanyo, Panasonic, Samsung, LG, Sony), which is the backbone of any pack, are non chinese companies. Buying li-ion batteries from china acutally makes little sense...

 

[NCC1941]

Still: when I need something new I have no clue about, I usually first figure out a reputable manufacturer, and pay the premium for a good product.

The main problem here is that, for a lot of groups, forums, and people who claim to be experienced and are quick to give out advice, UPP is one of those reputable, premium ebike pack manufacturers. Most people researching ebikes for the first time never even find out that ES exists.

UPP built a solid, lasting reputation on happy customers, because the many people who have issues post them to places like here, or r/ebikes, or the r/ebikes Discord server, where the average buyer will never find out about them.

And UPP does sell packs with Sanyo/Panasonic/LG/Samsung cells, so it's possible to do enough research to get a basic feel for what makes a good pack, then still fall into the UPP trap.

 

[tomjasz]

“ UPP is one of those reputable, premium ebike pack manufacturers. ” horse poop, if you had to honor warranties that UPP refused to warrant your tune wouldn’t by so off key. Leaving dealers holding the bag. Failure rates of UPP packs are higher than any other “reputable” sellers. Add insult to injury an honest dealers insurance had to cover the $50,000 claim. There’s more horror stories from burnt customers.

 

[NCC1941]

“ UPP is one of those reputable, premium ebike pack manufacturers. ” horse poop, if you had to honor warranties that UPP refused to warrant your tune wouldn’t by so off key. Leaving dealers holding the bag. Failure rates of UPP packs are higher than any other “reputable” sellers. Add insult to injury an honest dealers insurance had to cover the $50,000 claim. There’s more horror stories from burnt customers.

“UPP is one of those reputable, premium ebike pack manufacturers.”
I could be misreading, but it sounds like you're attributing that sentiment to me, which is not what I said, and it couldn't be further from the truth.
I'm aware of the horror stories. When the topic comes up, I go out of my way to tell those stories.

What I'm saying, is that there are a lot of very popular places on the internet where UPP's unearned reputation stands strong. Places where you get argued with, or just downvoted into irrelevance for saying that UPP is not to be trusted. Places where, if you show up and ask for battery recommendations, the name UPP is often offered up ahead of EM3ev, Luna, or Grin, and where UPP is talked about as if they're on the same level.

The problem isn't that the horror stories aren't being told. It's that they aren't being told often enough where they need to be told, for prospective buyers to see what UPP really offers before they buy.

 

[Greendog]

Interesting post mainly because all info on how packs fail in real world situations is useful , the packs in pictures show water ingress confirmed by damp cardboard and admission of riding through sprinklers , only way I can think water made it past heatshrink is by dripping down the power wire then seeping in through the gap between wire and wrap. Whether or not the pack uses 100% nickel strips or not should have little bearing on whether it fails unless of course they rust from moisture getting in some how.
I have only read a few posts and watched couple of videos on subject of upp and Louis's fire but a few things I picked up on, I am totally impartial and I don't presume to know any of the facts. In the video of upp manufacturing the facility looks professional and as I would expect, shows adequate investment, is not just a shed in the sticks,
and I think upp would not have posted video if they had something to hide, but saying that it does not prove all there packs are made there,
one thing I did think was a bit off is in there video at 7min at the part when he is handling the Panasonic cells he drops them back into the box could this cause shorts? Then next just after that it shows a box full of cells placed in no particular order is this safe? Camera pans away fast, Is there somekind of insulation on terminals to prevent shorts? Also when the cell spot welding is shown the worker is very fast , is there a reason other than just being productive ?, could it be that they have the welder up very high to ensure a weld when used fast, is it up so high that they have to weld very fast as not heat cell to much? I'm not an expert just a thought,
There is no doubt there are a few negative reviews of upp and bad publicity from Louis's fire , could this be just that bad news travels fast,
because something is manufactured in China does not mean it is of low quality not forgetting this is the country of source for majority of goods we have,
Unit pack power are competitively priced but It does not make financial sense in this case to be supplying a dangerous substandard product, are we to believe upp has an exclusive supply of faulty components?
, I would not be surprised if they are using exactly the same components and process as any other budget battery suppliers, could the fact that they are cheap and as such makes them battery of choice for amateur/first time builders be a factor , not forgetting that even a simple job like changing the type of output plug on a battery it is easy for those not used to soldering and working with that kind of current to make hazardous errors.
Don't like to disagree with other very respected members and my apologies to Louis for being presumptious but I don't feel like we're getting the full story from his you tube video about the fire, Think he says it happened when in hallway on return from ride, For me this is interesting as this is the same location he would have experienced a non matched battery event due to making a 72v pack from two 36v batteries, if in fact he was actually just leaving, this where he would have switched the two joined batterys on, and if they were unmatched and then rapidly equalised causing a fire and there is no doubt there was one.
I have not looked at the wiring diagram provided for method he used of joining packs together to see if this would protect against this so is just speculation, and as he refused to provide pics of wreckage to upp we don't know for sure how he joined the packs anyway.
What would you trust more a product with certificates or someone's home made circuit for joining them? I find fact that he did not want to provide evidence for a claim on unit pack powers insurance telling ,even if burned and all insulation gone you can still tell a lot as most of the wiring will still be there ,why wouldn't you at least try claim on upps insurance,
whats the worse that can happen they refuse to pay claim, they probably could have wriggled out of it by saying that he was using them in way they were not designed to be, by joining them together anyway,
i know if I was him I would just for my own pride at least try and prove it was upp s fault if I could, I really don't have any set opinions and having been in a house fire as youth caused by a hot light bulb in sewing machine catching fluff and fabric I am sympathetic to anyone who has unfortunately experienced a fire , i do find the subject interesting for discussion though , peace

 

[Tommm]

Interesting post mainly because all info on how packs fail in real world situations is useful , the packs in pictures show water ingress confirmed by damp cardboard and admission of riding through sprinklers , only way I can think water made it past heatshrink is by dripping down the power wire then seeping in through the gap between wire and wrap.

Hailong hard case packs typically do not have heat shrink inside, this is true for all brands afaik.

 

[Greendog]

The first pics posted on this topic show batteries wrapped in blue heat shrink ,
Hailong cases definitely not waterproof due to not having any gaskets or sealant on areas like joints ,lock and charge points, I got lucky accidentally leaving bike with hailong out in rain couple times but wouldn't ride though puddles with it though, that Luna potted battery is a work of art , think the extra you pay for premium battery well worth it in the long run the Chinese cell definetely inferior to brand name cells especially in performance

 

[tomjasz]

Unit pack power is competitively priced but It does not make financial sense, in this case, to be supplying a dangerous substandard product, are we to believe upp has an exclusive supply of faulty components?

UPP has repeatedly refused to honor warranties. Vendors that sell UPP batteries get absolutely no help from UPP. A recent lawsuit for a failed battery ended with the USA resellers insurance paying for damages. There's no way to sue or collect damages from a Chinese battery builder.

It's the build, not the components that created the issue.

 

[Greendog]

yes that battery in your pic does not exactly scream quality :lol: looks like a badly wrapped Christmas present , or something I'd make held together with tape and hope