Wheel Building!!

[B0B]

Hello to all.

I'm new to this site, but have been involved with electric bike builds for some time now. I first got involved through a member called Jozzer when he needed to have a wheel built for his recumbant many moons ago as no other mechanics would go near him because it was an electric hub motor. Since then I've been commisioned to build many wheels purly for the e-bikers needs. Along the way I made my first e-bike of my own and obviously built my wheel for that! (incidentally I have a Shwinn Stingray @ 48v with headway cells and Puma motor and c-lite controller suitably beefed up and covered over 800 miles so far.)

Anyway, the question that has come to mind is that I haven't heard of anyone who offers wheel building services to e-bike riders who are doing their own projects. Basically I'm a Cytech trained mechanic who has been in the general bike business for some time and love a challenge and doing unusual jobs hence why I wanted to built the stingray up! I worked for a stint at Team Hybrid builing hubmotor wheels for any number of applications as well as my own customers who have been recomended to me by Jozzer. So far in the history of these wheels I haven't had a single spoke snappage when some of them have been abused considerably: over 72V for more than 2000 miles without the need for any aftercare or truing in that time or since!!

I've now set up my own workshop for the purposes of servicing bikes, building e-bikes, custom bike builds and custom wheel builds among other services available from most other shops. I would like to offer my services to anyone who needs a proffesionally Handbuilt wheel for their e-bike. I would be offering a 1 year standard warranty against snapped spokes on all my wheels with an unlimited mileage range for that year. Prices will be starting at £75 for the build itself plus cost of components to go with it ie: Spokes, rims and hubs depending on what I need to supply. If you have a hub and rim you want it building into a wheel and just need it built that is fine, you can supply any or all parts for the job and just have the cost of build.

If you would like to see some examples of my work I'll post some up for you.

Let me know if there is any interest!! Have a good day all!

Bob

 

[deecanio]

Hi BOB,

welcome to the forum!!!


Having had BOB lace all my EV wheels so far i'd like to say that the service is first class and i've never had an issue with spokes even with the battering they get on my bike so i can totally vouch for BOB's skills, indeed he is lacing the new Kona wheel now .
Nice chopper mate, want to race?

Cheers,

D

 

[Drunkskunk]

Great! welcome to the forum.

Couple of questions for you, kind of an intervierew of sorts. What tool are you using to cut the threads, and are you able to lace 26 inch wheels with 12 guage spokes?

 

[nomad85]

£75

 

[B0B]

Hello again,

Cheers deecanio, always a pleasure!! look forward to seeing you this weekend.... and yeah, when you're back on the road we'll have it out on the black top!!

As far as 12 guage spokes go, I've never seen a benifit to using them. From what I've come across using 12g spokes, they usually wind up loosing their tension, snapping spokes, buckling wheels and is more difficult to put sufficient tension into the wheel to make it hold it's shape in the first place. I've only ever built wheels with 15g spokes as it allows the wheel to be built with higher tension and better accuracy, plus you can buy 15g spokes anywhere!! But anyway, I use a spoke winding machine to put new threrads onto spokes which allows me to make them any desired lenght to allow for better accuracy and you can buy individual threading heads for whatever guage spoke is being used so yes I can. But I would still say it's not needed and can make a lighter and longer lasting build with 15g. In fact, in the last few weeks, I built a Heinzmann motor into a 700c touring wheel for a customer and used the thinner spokes for it.

£75

Yes, £75 is a lot of money for a wheel build, but as I said, I'll guarantee the build for a year with unlimited milage. Obviously as I'm just getting myself set up pricing is going to be a point of much debate and does need to be fully confirmed. But I have full confidence in my work and I know that any wheel built will stay with you for life with minimal maintainance unless you want to change the set up because you either get bored with what you have or for example the rim wares out from the use of a rim brake!!

Just so I know, what have people been charged in the past for a build, and what was the quality like??

Thanks for the input!!!

Bob

 

[Russell]

Just so I know, what have people been charged in the past for a build, and what was the quality like??



Bob

In the USA it runs about $40 per wheel or 28.3953 GBP according to a currency converter.

-R

 

[deecanio]

with what sort of garantee?
i know i had a nightmare trying at my lbs to get them to even lace let alone garantee, most said they wouldn't do it because of liability issues even if i told them i'd take full responsibilty for using it

D

 

[recumbent]

Just so I know, what have people been charged in the past for a build, and what was the quality like?

I paid $30 CDN to have my wheel spoked and motor installed in the wheel 8 years ago. top quality wheel and the job was excellent, narry a problem for 6 years running till i sold it.

I agree with Bob and the use of normal guage spokes, you want a bit of "give" for comfort.

Many wheels now-a-days are made with only 22 spokes, not 36, and they are not thicker guage either, i have one of those on the back of my recumbent bike, holds heavy loads, (14lb battery) plus my 190 LB arse. Although i wanted to buy a stronger wheel for my bike, the bike store owner told me to ride with the 22 spoker wheel and you will be surprised, well i am. Going onto my second summer of ebiking with it, last summer rode 5,000 Km's had to tighten them once when they made some clicking noise, but good so far.

The wheel builders must know what they are doing, the last thing they want is warranty work. Just buy good quality spokes is the secret.

 

[docnjoj]

I agree with the thinner high quality spokes! I use 14 ga and lace my own wheels, then bring to the LBS for truing! Price ranges from 20 to 40 USD depending on time needed. Never had a spoke break, and I ride a tadpole, which means high lateral forces on the wheel!
otherDoc

 

[nomad85]

I've seen 35$ with a lifetime spoke replacement guarantee if one ever breaks. Although I would be willing to pay more for a e-bike wheel building specialist, maybe 10-15$ more?

 

[Drunkskunk]

I have a Felt 1903 cruiser with 12 guage spokes I need relaced for drum brakes instead of coaster brakes. the problem is finding a shop set up for 12 guage.

I build my own with 14guage for off road and disc brakes, and 15 for race wheels.

My local shop can't get anything bigger than 14 straight guage spokes, but they will lace and true a wheel for $25 pluss cost of spokes. All spokes are turned with a Phill Wood Spoke machine

 

[B0B]

Been away for a while!!


So far it looks like you're paying anywhere from $20-$45 depending on where you go! Not too bad by all counts. In the Uk, the few prices I've found on-line have been around the £20-£35 mark with differing opinions on supplying the spokes with the build. As for my experience of pricings when working in bke shops, the prices have been between £20-£25 plus the cost of spokes etc. The only issue I have come across is that although they quote these prices, neither of the shops I worked for would have touched a hubmotor build apart from the fact that I wanted to do it! This is also true of most people I've come across who have wanted to get their wheels built and found it very difficult to find somebody willing to put themselves on the line for something that is "potentially dangerous and making us liable for damages!" etc.

I've had a chance to reconsider my pricing and £75 does seem to be stretching it a bit.

I've come up with a price to include cost of spokes plus rim tape and lifetime warranty.

Ultimately it will be benifical to everyone, myself and clients alike, to offer a liftime warranty on all my wheels. It means that I can then offer better advise and services to my clients in the future as well as making manufacturers aware of our needs and ways to improve quality on all fronts. The only issue to the warranty that I can see currently is that I would like the wheel to be sent back to me (at your cost) for warranty work to be carried out but that's something to be sorted out in the mean time and needs finalizing. I'm confident enough in my work to believe that I won't get any sendbacks, but I want to be sure I'm there for after care, just in case!!

The prices will start at £55 + P&P where applicable.
This will include spokes and rim tape as stated above (rims and other components extra cost) with liftime warranty on the build.
This would be for a basic build. Other options for the future would be things like spoke solder and rapping to increase strength, upgraded spokes etc.

Sorry so late getting back!

 

[wanders]

No offense intended for the professional wheel builders here, but building quality wheels just isn't that difficult nor does it require too many specialized tools. There is now an excellent and inexpensive book that thoroughly addresses the subject of wheelbuilding, to wit "The Professional Guide to Wheel Building" by Roger Musson. This is an easy-to-read book that yields excellent results. Unlike earlier books like Jobst Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel", Musson's book is strictly pragmatic, unassuming and refreshingly unarrogant in tone.

A builder does need a wheel truing jig, but there are inexpensive ones available. And the additional tools needed are simple.

I hadn't built wheels for a long time, but recently picked up Musson's book and started again. It is fun and gratifying. I recommend it. And the results are equal to anyone's "professional" wheels.

 

[B0B]

None taken, and all true! I had a look at the suggestions mentioned and yes, it does seem that he offers good advise.

Although what I'm offering is a service for people who are not confident or inquisitive DIY'ers who just want to get out on the kit and use it without the worry of wondering if, even though they followed the advise, their wheel will fall apart or buckle badly or whatever after the first ride. I always say to people if you fancy trying to do it yourself then go for it and I will offer my assistance as and when requested. But on the same note, even if you do successfully build your dream wheel on your own from these books(which is great), nothing compares to practical experience of building and handling 1000's of varying types, styles and layouts of wheel to know exactly how to get the best out of the components in your hand.


At the end of the day a "Proffetionally" built wheel means exactly that. It's been built by a proffetional in the field with years of experience and knowledge that can be applied to each job as it comes rather than applying the same standard to every job which can leed you in the wrong direction. I don't want to take anything away from people who want to do it themselves as it's always a good thing, but in this case "proffetional" deffinately makes a difference.

 

[morph999]

Nomad85 also does e-bike work but I don't know if he does wheel builds and frames, though. Bob, what did you do for the mid-frame. How was that done? I wanted to do something similar with my bike. Can you say what materials you used and what you did.

 

[morph999]

I was wanting to put a aluminum/steel section in the mid-frame of my bike, too for the batteries. Anyone know how much a welding shop would charge to do that. My idea was to put a metal triangle welded to the frame of my bike that could be opened and shut with a hole at the top so it could be locked.

 

[Drunkskunk]

If you have the skill to cut and prep all the steel for the project, you might get away semi cheap. Welders get 40 to 60 an hour including shop time. expect it to take a couple hours if there are more than 4 or 5 pieces.

If you go to them with cad drawings and ask them to build a rack, expect the cost to be closer to a $500.

If you go in with just a bike frame, and ask them to "make something that will hold "this" ", expect the cost to be a grand or more.

Or you can try learning to work in fiberglass.

 

[icecube57]

Ive never used high quality spokes. But the local bike shop says thinner is better. I suppose regular stock spokes stretch over time. I did find myself adjusting thema few times after i rode a few hundred miles. I try to keep my wheel pretty stiff the last time i called myself going soft and i did some light offroading i destroyed that wheel. I had a clyte motor that had to be trued out of the box... the gm motor i havei now s suprising stout true and all of the spokes had a nice ping out of the box and still do with about 300 miles. I think they used 13g SS spokes. I can do simple cross one spoke patterns if they are already precut... I dont have the patience for anything else.

 

[wanders]

I've just finished off a pair of wheels, and I believe that these are the strongest, truest wheels I've ever built. They use pretty hefty rims (Atomlabs GI 26"), but the key to the strength is the spoke, which is the Sapim Strong single-butted spoke. This spoke is the highest quality that I've ever personally used. It has a 13ga elbow, and butts to a 14ga spoke arm. It is as easy to lace and true as a normal 14ga spoke, but the wheel that results can be tensioned very tightly with no concern regarding spoke integrity. Highly recommended!

Never scrimp on spokes - the spokes are the wheel.

 

[recumbent]

I've just finished off a pair of wheels, and I believe that these are the strongest, truest wheels I've ever built... Highly recommended! ...Never scrimp on spokes .

Thanks for posting the link, "Wanders" they cold forge the spokes for 48% stronger, but most important is the "Aero" type spokes which are oval shaped and are stronger yet with three fold the fatigue endurance.

Truely amazing, wish i knew the price differential between them. Thanks again for giving us better insight.

 

[wanders]

wish i knew the price differential between them.

Wheelbuilder.com has all the Sapim spokes at a very fair price - I've been pleased with their service, and you can windowshop there. I have no interest in wheelbuilder.com, other than as a satisfied customer.

 

[B0B]

Hi morph999. The box in my bike was made by myself at work. I made the battery pack of 10ah headway cells at 48v to fit the shape of the box. Also inside are all the connections between controller, motor, on/off switch, charger input plug, LVC plus controller too.
It's a bit cramped, and as it is the MK1 box. There are still some mods needed to make it 100%. I need to make the next one a few millimeters wider and get an extra couple of mil out of the hight too!! It's made from sheet aluminum and MIG welded for joining! I will be starting to offer this service for other e-bikers as and when they want it! If you know the dimentions of the area to be filled it can take a day or two to get it from nothing to finished. Mine's not powder coated yet, but can be done locally to me for around £50+, style/colour dependant.

Spokes are amazing! Another company to look at is DT Swiss. They offer some very competative alternatives to the sapims, and I have worked with them for many years with no probs what so ever. www.dtswiss.com. They also have a spoke calculation programm on the site that can be used by anyone!

but most important is the "Aero" type spokes which are oval shaped and are stronger yet with three fold the fatigue endurance.

Somthing to bear in mind with that, is that it's totally dependant on the quality of the build and the quality of the other components that you use with them! True enough that under the right circumstances they would last that long in a lab, but in the real world with temp differences, salt from roads or mud and all manner of other shite picked up along the way, it can significantly reduce the life span. The most common killer for braking spokes however is lack of spoke tension. Basically the lack of tension allows the rim and spokes to compress when they are at the point of contact with the ground, and this in turn moves the spoke heads in the hub and also wares them across any intersections (crossings) and fatigues them, like bending a paper clip, until they snap!

It's for that reason that the standard 12/13g spoked wheels suffer more so than the 14g. Because they use a courser thread, you can't add tension as easily, but it allows them to unwind much easier. The other problem mentioned was having to true them straite out the box. The only reason why this should happen is because they don't de-stress the wheel while they build them. They more than likely get it true and round in one go, make sure it has the "right" tension and do nothing more with it. Then the first time you put it on your bike or open the box after transit, it has had time to let the spokes settle either through temp changes, vibrations, or from riding for the first time. Happy days!!

 

[morph999]

wow, that's a really good price. I wish I lived in the UK.

 

[B0B]

Just to double check, the £50 was just for the powder coating of the finished box!! I used about £30 of Ali, plus about 8Hrs of actual build time(the more I do the quicker it will get!!). I don't know how much it would cost to ship one out to you, but all in, a box could be made for around the £200 arena (plus postage), again style dependant!! But then that would bring it back in line with what you would pay over there i suppose.

 

[recumbent]

The most common killer for braking spokes however is lack of spoke tension. Basically the lack of tension allows the rim and spokes to compress when they are at the point of contact with the ground, and this in turn moves the spoke heads in the hub and also wear's them across any intersections (crossings) and fatigues them, like bending a paper clip, until they snap!

So true, whenever i had spoke breakage it was always at the bend near the hub. But that was 30 years ago when i never adjusted spokes.

Whenever i hear a slight "clicking" sound i get out my trusty spoke wrench and snug them up, especially the 24 spoke wheel that came with my bike. Surprisingly 5,000 km's (280lbs total) and still solid.
This is my test wheel to see if quality rules over quantity.