Where to buy headways?

[swbluto]

Hello, I remember the good old days when Frodus had organized headway cell group buys so that a favorable rate could be obtained on headways. It appeared that he was invited to join EVComponents that basically did the same thing except through a store front. However, it appears that EV components basically "took the money and ran" like you would fear from a group buy organizer, and frodus and other employees defected as a result of this dishonesty.

WARNING: Above is idle speculation.

So, where are the headway distributers? Is Frodus planning on organizing any future group buys?

 

[Old_Scoot]

"However, it appears that EV components basically "took the money and ran" like you would fear from a group buy organizer, and frodus and other employees defected as a result of this dishonesty."

They did? Sheesh. When did that happen?

 

[scoot]

No way... seriously?

Thanx for the heads up, but where & how did this all happen? any other thread links on the matter?

 

[swbluto]

It's all idle speculation at this point. But the clues seem to point sort of in that direction.

See http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18533 , http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18005&p=262456&hilit=+ev+components+#p262456 and http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18330&start=0.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

You can get Headways on Alibaba from Victoria Chen for $13.50 a pop for the S variety.

 

[cell_man]

If you buy 1000 of them.

 

[scoot]

If you buy 1000 of them.

That would make one heck of a dragster stand on scooter, eh? 8) ... hold on

Seriously though, I think it is all adding up to a state of profound sadness for some of us Headway fans... and just when I think I was personally gettin' a handle on these puppies

 

[Jay64]

Last time I contacted Victoria she quoted me $12 something a cell for built packs. Granted, it was for a 144v 40ah pack, but it definately wasn't 1000 cells.

 

[cell_man]

That's still almost 200 cells per pack and I'd be very surprised that they would do a 1 off pack assembled for the equivalent of 12USD per cell.

 

[amberwolf]

It's all idle speculation at this point. But the clues seem to point sort of in that direction.

Also see:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=270270#p270270

but especially this one:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44546

 

[dogman dan]

FWIW, often start ups fail without outright deliberate thievery involved. Just poor estimations of what the real profit margins need to be to continue the cash flow. Overhead is always more than you thought, costs of making good on defects skyrocket, etc. I've seen it many many many times with construction contractors. Unfortunately, with the contractors the real problem is often a buisness profiting 20k a year is writing off overhead on a 50k a year lifestyle. New truck, living in a house instead of selling it, etc. I wonder what EVC's buisness expenses books look like? It's the #1 reason for a buisness to fail, paying salary to the founders before profits are being made.

 

[Old_Scoot]

Agreed Dogman. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that anything here was done intentionally. I would assume they had the best of intentions unless it is proven otherwise.

Sad day for our community.

 

[swbluto]

FWIW, often start ups fail without outright deliberate thievery involved. Just poor estimations of what the real profit margins need to be to continue the cash flow. Overhead is always more than you thought, costs of making good on defects skyrocket, etc.

Indeed. I was thinking they'd need to move really high volume in order to justify their operation in the US with multiple employees and overhead, and to account for the "return rate" (No matter of volume will justify the return rate if the price is too low.).

 

[cell_man]

So how do you sell batteries then?

Most seem to think they are getting ripped off if they pay more than the factory gate price for a pack. EVComponents had set the mark and even though they were mostly taking the money up front, so basically using your money to buy the stock in bulk at favourable rates, they still couldn't make it into a successful long term business. I would say the price difference between factory and retail on batteries is amongst the lowest mark up for any product. I know I don't make a great return on the cells I have been selling, for sure a lot less than EVComponents if what I have heard was true about their costs, but then I don't have 2 new Teslas, I just have 2 Macs in my ebike

Maybe I'll have to get myself some Headways, what's a good retail price?

 

[LiFe]

It's all idle speculation at this point. But the clues seem to point sort of in that direction.

See http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18533 , http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18005&p=262456&hilit=+ev+components+#p262456 and http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18330&start=0.

It appears all of the latest drama is occurring here and now:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ts-not-delivering-orders-anymore-44546p6.html

 

[swbluto]

So how do you sell batteries then?

If the price constraints are too great compared to what people are willing to pay, then the answer is simple: you don't.

Mainly, you'd move your operations where the overhead is much lower like say China and then deal from there. Though, that'd be balanced against the extra cost of individual shipping overseas.

I suppose it may be possible to operate within the USA, but only with extremely efficient processes and cost minimizing practices. If the profit margins are really razor thin, then I wouldn't expect to get rich off of it, at least not enough to afford teslas any time soon.

What will likely happen is that other competitors with healthier profit margins will fill the void created by EV Components' leave. In turn, this may imply higher price, but I think 10% would be easily achievable. Higher if returns and warranties are permitted.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

The importation of cells, manufacture into packs and subsequent resale must be done on a shoe string to make any sort of profits.

Forget about employing other people.

 

[LiFe]

So how do you sell batteries then?

Most seem to think they are getting ripped off if they pay more than the factory gate price for a pack. EVComponents had set the mark and even though they were mostly taking the money up front, so basically using your money to buy the stock in bulk at favourable rates, they still couldn't make it into a successful long term business. I would say the price difference between factory and retail on batteries is amongst the lowest mark up for any product. I know I don't make a great return on the cells I have been selling, for sure a lot less than EVComponents if what I have heard was true about their costs, but then I don't have 2 new Teslas, I just have 2 Macs in my ebike

Maybe I'll have to get myself some Headways, what's a good retail price?

And that's the pot calling the kettle black. You are deluding yourself by making negative comments about EVComponents.

You, an ex-pat living in Shanghai, buys a load of stolen A123 pouch cells on the black market, that slipped out the back door from the Incheon assembly facility, and resell them here at a tidy profit.

Just because you paid someone for them does not legitimize your having possession of them.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

I love this stuff......

 

[DaveAK]

So how do you sell batteries then?

Most seem to think they are getting ripped off if they pay more than the factory gate price for a pack. EVComponents had set the mark and even though they were mostly taking the money up front, so basically using your money to buy the stock in bulk at favourable rates, they still couldn't make it into a successful long term business. I would say the price difference between factory and retail on batteries is amongst the lowest mark up for any product. I know I don't make a great return on the cells I have been selling, for sure a lot less than EVComponents if what I have heard was true about their costs, but then I don't have 2 new Teslas, I just have 2 Macs in my ebike

Maybe I'll have to get myself some Headways, what's a good retail price?

And that's the pot calling the kettle black. You are deluding yourself by making negative comments about EVComponents.

You, an ex-pat living in Shanghai, buys a load of stolen A123 pouch cells on the black market, that slipped out the back door from the Incheon assembly facility, and resell them here at a tidy profit.

Just because you paid someone for them does not legitimize your having possession of them.

What negative comments? What he says is largely true. EV Components did pretty much set the mark for lowest prices. They took 100% cash up front and then ordered the product. That's exactly what happened with my order. I have it on good authority that James has one Tesla, but I don't know about two.

There's nothing cell_man said that is negative, only realistic and truthful. As to his source of A123 cells that's purely specualtion as far as I can tell, although I've not been following it all.

I think you're the one that's delusional.

 

[cell_man]

I'm not knocking EVComponents and if that is how you read it, it wasn't my intention. The only think that could possibly be taken as a bit of a dig was the reference to the Teslas, but I can't see how you can be making big purchases whilst your company is put into liquidation leaving lots of people out of pocket. People may think they can't trust some anonymous guy in China, without a nice website etc, but I've always delivered and there is no way on this earth I would take somebody elses money to buy stock and then sell their batteries so I'm not out of pocket. I spent the price of a high end BMW, pretty much my life savings to buy those cells and have sold them cheap.

You really believe that the cells I have been selling are stolen. Sorry that is rubbish. I don't know exactly why A123 choose to sell some cells out the back door but they do and have been for some time. You are also very mistaken to think I make a tidy profit. Do you really think that anybody is going to sell A123 cells at less than lower performing cells. Why would they possibly do that? I was told what EVComponents pay for the headway cells and I know what I make. If it was just a straight calculation not including overheads, for them or me, I reckon they were making approximately 2.5 times the profit margin for a headway cell versus what I am making for the pouch cells. If you don't believe that, ok, but I know it's true.

Look at what I have charged for the assembled packs. I reckon I make 50USD if that for the assembly after materials and it takes me personally 1 day of my time, so please don't tell me about the tidy profit I'm making, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Taking cash then placing the orders is a bust.

Get the capital, buy the stock, then sell it.

 

[LiFe]

So how do you sell batteries then?

Most seem to think they are getting ripped off if they pay more than the factory gate price for a pack. EVComponents had set the mark and even though they were mostly taking the money up front, so basically using your money to buy the stock in bulk at favourable rates, they still couldn't make it into a successful long term business. I would say the price difference between factory and retail on batteries is amongst the lowest mark up for any product. I know I don't make a great return on the cells I have been selling, for sure a lot less than EVComponents if what I have heard was true about their costs, but then I don't have 2 new Teslas, I just have 2 Macs in my ebike

Maybe I'll have to get myself some Headways, what's a good retail price?

And that's the pot calling the kettle black. You are deluding yourself by making negative comments about EVComponents.

You, an ex-pat living in Shanghai, buys a load of stolen A123 pouch cells on the black market, that slipped out the back door from the Incheon assembly facility, and resell them here at a tidy profit.

Just because you paid someone for them does not legitimize your having possession of them.

What negative comments? What he says is largely true. EV Components did pretty much set the mark for lowest prices. They took 100% cash up front and then ordered the product. That's exactly what happened with my order. I have it on good authority that James has one Tesla, but I don't know about two.

There's nothing cell_man said that is negative, only realistic and truthful. As to his source of A123 cells that's purely specualtion as far as I can tell, although I've not been following it all.

I think you're the one that's delusional.

We''ll just keep this piece around for posterity...

 

[cell_man]

that slipped out the back door from the Incheon assembly facility

So tell me where they come from. If I can get them without the middle man, everyone will get them cheaper. I can't sell them any cheaper than I am at the prices I paid.

 

[LiFe]

I'm not knocking EVComponents and if that is how you read it, it wasn't my intention. The only think that could possibly be taken as a bit of a dig was the reference to the Teslas, but I can't see how you can be making big purchases whilst your company is put into liquidation leaving lots of people out of pocket. People may think they can't trust some anonymous guy in China, without a nice website etc, but I've always delivered and there is no way on this earth I would take somebody elses money to buy stock and then sell their batteries so I'm not out of pocket. I spent the price of a high end BMW, pretty much my life savings to buy those cells and have sold them cheap.

You really believe that the cells I have been selling are stolen. Sorry that is rubbish. I don't know exactly why A123 choose to sell some cells out the back door but they do and have been for some time. You are also very mistaken to think I make a tidy profit. Do you really think that anybody is going to sell A123 cells at less than lower performing cells. Why would they possibly do that? I was told what EVComponents pay for the headway cells and I know what I make. If it was just a straight calculation not including overheads, for them or me, I reckon they were making approximately 2.5 times the profit margin for a headway cell versus what I am making for the pouch cells. If you don't believe that, ok, but I know it's true.

Look at what I have charged for the assembled packs. I reckon I make 50USD if that for the assembly after materials and it takes me personally 1 day of my time, so please don't tell me about the tidy profit I'm making, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

OK, so you didn't make a lot of money reselling those stolen cells.
If you deny that you're reselling stolen materials, ask your contact to sell you more of them.