Lurkin said:
Pauls sales volume is irrelevant as the manufacturer should test their own products rather than an incentivised reseller. Further, how many other people are reselling these now? We dont know what the sales volume for the manufacturer is, or what margin they are making on them!
I'm a supplier, I don't claim to be a charity or doing this to further a revolution etc. I wouldn't sell them if i didn't think they were good value, safe and a good product. They are produced in quite small batches, they are very far from mass produced, they are a niche product. The margin is irrelevant, you don't ask the shop to itemise the profit they make on each part.
Lurkin said:
And unlike Pauls previous advice you can definitely buy these direct, cheaper, from the manufacturer. What do you think I was planning to do!
That shouldn't be the case and if it is, more words will be said. The whole idea is to let Dealers buy them, not to have loads of cheapskates bugging the maker, so someone can save themselves 50USD. Direct sales from the factory is what is bad about many Chinese Products, at least this way the local dealers have a chance to buy in bulk and supply locally. Direct retail sales from the factory sucks for everyone sooner or later. Dealers have to put their hand in their pocket and wait for the parts to arrive, field all the questions etc, why shouldn't they make a living too?
Lurkin said:
I haven't asked this level of detail from other manufacturers. But then I have had poor responses from them with dodgy information! If you read my prior posts you'll realize why I'm totally fine with buying frames from alternative suppliers.
So this is largely based on not being treated with the care and attention you feel you deserve? The factory is not interested in supplying 1 frame to 1 guy with a stack of difficult questions, that they don't understand. The Factory have been told by myself and Evel, that it is unfair and counter-productive to take the small minded approach and try to grab every little sale and disrespect/undermine the dealers. The Factory are seeking Dealers, not retail sales. If you bought a quantity and showed you were a genuine business buyer, I might imagine they would be more interested in trying to answer numerous and difficult questions. I repeat, the factory is not interested in direct single frame sales, so don't expect a warm welcome when you send them an email from your gmail account with a long list of difficult questions. If you even got a reply, you are lucky, they will generally just ignore what they see are time wasting/difficult small customers (very common for China Factories, they are not interested in these sort of sales).
Lurkin said:
The uncertainty had arisen from poor, inconsistent or contradictory information provided by Paul, Evelbike and Jason (represents the actual manufacturer, not a reseller).
As previously stated, I tried to work out the quality of these frames BEFORE anyone on here had them and before Paul was even offering them. The responses I received are still be debated even in this thread!
I know the guys at Evel, they have been my customers for several years. I knew about this frame a long time ago and had 1 of the first units when samples were built. Show me where I have made any inconsistent claims? I see lots of generic requests that are very easy to ask, but I don't see any specific tests, or procedures to do measurements, tests, or anything else. If questions are being thrown in, in the middle of bashing the person (referring to a sales thread I only read last night.... hmmm) and when the person being asked the question uses English as their 2nd language, it is easy to get mixed up and for misunderstandings to occur.
Lurkin said:
Paul has provided his very well written point of view. But it's just more of the same with no new information at all. I find it a little disturbing that his view is being serenaded because it has been eloquently put yet it's a just well put summary of his assumptions and opinion- there's no new facts or confirmed information there!
Each to their own. If you guys are happy to assume the frames are strong enough based on Pauls (potentially) biased advice and the other poor information Ive written in here without confirmed, tangible facts then that's totally fine, I'll leave you to it.
Thanks, I do try
I've also heard lots of positive things from both suppliers (that in many cases deal with lots of other products, so do have a good point of reference) and buyers too. I don't think i have read anybody that has tried these frames or who owns 1, to have anything more to offer in the way of negative comments, other than minor details. I do resent the suggestion that I'd supply something that posed a significant risk of falling to bits and hurting someone, just so i could profit in some way. Just because someone profits in some way, does not mean they are blinded by greed. I sell this frame, because I like it, it looks cool, has loads of room for a huge battery, a big Hub motor drops in (with no concerns about TAs) rides well and the factory is maybe 2 hours drive from me. If I could easily get some frames from Vector or Qulbix, I'd offer them too, but the logistics would be a nightmare, so I don't current do that, but would certainly consider drop shipping other frames, offering packages to go with the frame.
My belief that the frame is sound, are based on my experience, and common sense (that is also what others are doing, they are not just plucking something out of thin air). This is not infallible (I'm not talking about a set of 747 wings here), but I do believe you can look at the material type, quantity of material and take a visual look at the welds, then make a judgement as to the suitability of a particular object with regards to it's ability to withstand the expected normal usage and even extreme usage. If the normal usage was very extreme and/or the materials used, were marginal (minimal material to save weight) or more prone to catastrophic failure (aluminium or carbon fibre), then yes, I could see that a more thorough investigation is warranted. But really, I don't see that this frame would normally be used in such a way and the forces we are talking are not huge. Others are simply doing the same thing, they are making a reasonably educated judgement. Look, I really do not think the normal usage of this frame will get remotely close to the structural limits of the materials, design and construction, for this frame. It is absolutely over-built (IMPO) and therefore, that is why I don't see questioning the structural integrity as being hugely relevant. If it is relevant here, it is relevant on all such frames and every bike out there, but I don't see many discussions along these lines.
This is an analogy that springs to mind. I cross the road very often and have done so many times in my life. I sometimes take a chance, but I will always look both ways and not put myself in too much harms way (except that night where I drank way too much, fell into the road in front of someone's car.... luckily they stopped in time, but i digress
). Yes, there is a chance that a car will lose a wheel and career off unexpected, or the building behind me might collapse, but the chances are very slim. I don't see that making a reasonable judgement (based on knowledge and experience), that a mechanical object is comfortably able to meet a required level of strength and therefore, it is safe to use that device, as being hugely different to this scenario. IMPO, the required strength and what I believe a steel structure such as this should be capable of, are not even close, so as to be a major concern. I am not trying to make fun, or belittle the concerns, I am just trying to explain how I see it.
If anyone has a specific and reasonable test, that can be performed on 1 of these frames, please detail it, we can discuss and maybe some sort of test, can actually be performed. I have repeated several times, that I need specifics, all these general comments do not help. If you want to get the answer you want, you need to ask the right questions. Some open ended generic comment is very difficult, to respond back to with anything meaningful.
Thanks and Peace, I am just coming back with responses to the points, not wanting to cause offense or anything else. I really should get back to doing some work now.
Paul
