Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[harrisonpatm]

Plus you spend less on overtime restoring power after a storm if most of your customers can go days without suffering.

If you're grid-tied solar, and there's a power outage, your panels won't be powering your house. Power company controls your output and prevents backfeeding to the grid during an outage, so lineman can safely make repairs

 

[classicalgas]

If you're grid-tied solar, and there's a power outage, your panels won't be powering your house. Power company controls your output and prevents backfeeding to the grid during an outage, so lineman can safely make repairs

Evidently the smart system that comes with a VPP setup gets around that. Being able to power your house (and even neighbors ) during failures of the grid is considered a selling point. It's not a simple grid tie.

Other advantages include being able to sell power that's already in your EV battery back to the power company at a profit (when the grid is stressed ) pre heating or pre cooling buildings before the workforce arrives (and before peak power demand/cost )

 

[Hillhater]

You haven't shown any proof of your dribble in over five years and over three hundred pages...

This thread spun off from a previous “global warming dissusion thread”,..specificially to discuss the various grid electricity generation options in the future.
my primary “dribble” over that time was to show how unviable Wind and Solar are on a practical and financial basis.
Of those few countries /state utilities that have committed to a significant W&S proportion substution of their generation capacity,.. ALL of them have seen dramatic increases in the power cost to the consumers ..FACT !
As some of you are now slowly realising , energy cost is not just about the price of the fuel. Many other factors are in play.
“Back up systems”,.. storage, , syncronisation, support generation, more transmission lines from the multiple generation sites, and much shorter life cycles compare to Thermal generators….all multiply the real cost of that generation.
Another side effect of these increased energy costs is the effect on economies.
Germany, once a European industrial and economical powerhouse and a trendsetter in RE, is now a seriously in trouble economically as many of their major industries have jumped ship to cheaper operating countries, and the crippling financial dept from their investment in Wind and Solar. Whilst having to maintain a full Thermal generation capacity for back up !
Australia is headed the same way, Motor industry shut, Aluminium industry (a high energy consumer) shutting down ( even though heavily subsidised).
Take a look at the UK also,..another RE “leader” !
How much “proof” do you need that Wind and Solar are a fools solution to a non existant problem ?
As for the ongoing CO2 debate…
it doesnt really matter if you believe CO2 is the evil gas , nothing you , me, or anyone else i the UN does, until China, India, Africa,etc decides to destroy their own economies,….then you are flogging a dead horse argument !

 

[Hillhater]

Evidently the smart system that comes with a VPP setup gets around that.

Sure, there is technology available for that ….BUT ,..you need approval from the local utility to use it…and it is not allowed in many areas for both the reason (safety) mentioned and other important utility operational factors.
Some utilities are now insisting on not only haveing control (remotely) of that feed in ability, but also to control the actual output of those privately owned solar panels on the roof !..IE they have the ability to stop ypu using your own solar and force you to use only grid supply ..if you want any power at all !
..and if you want a reason, it is simple, RT solar can seriously F#ck up the grid systems if allowed to go uncontrolled !

If they are well thought out and executed, "virtual power plants" (where leased home solar feeds leased home batteries (including the EV in the drive) with draw down with the power company to buffer the grid ) seem to be a workable solution. A few are up and running various places.

…and what happens after a few days of low/ no sun ?
…especially if the grid supply is also heavily solar supported !

 

[Chalo]

my primary “dribble” over that time was to show how unviable Wind and Solar are on a practical and financial basis.

Any generation method is impractical and financially nonviable IF YOU DON'T EVEN TRY TO DO IT AT SCALE. That's where we're at in most of the capitalist/corruptly governed world.

There's nothing about renewables that would make them inherently more expensive or resource intensive than building out fossil or nuclear energy. The only difference is in how much ground work has already been laid.

One thing is for certain, the externalities of renewables are a lot cheaper and easier to live with, both in the near and long term.

 

[perpetualman]

Solar, Wind, Hydro, etc...are all "cheap" sources of energy (the energy cost is zero !).
.....its the cost of collecting and converting it into electricity that is expensive !

Put wind turbine fan on electric bike to get charge when parked in windy area, I just lock my bike up near curb of busy street, lots of wind as cars go by

 

[perpetualman]

Any generation method is impractical and financially nonviable IF YOU DON'T EVEN TRY TO DO IT AT SCALE. That's where we're at in most of the capitalist/corruptly governed world.

There's nothing about renewables that would make them inherently more expensive or resource intensive than building out fossil or nuclear energy. The only difference is in how much ground work has already been laid.

One thing is for certain, the externalities of renewables are a lot cheaper and easier to live with, both in the near and long term.

working on the Gravity Wheel Generator, turns gravity into electricity, I will let you know how it goes

 

[Chalo]

working on the Gravity Wheel Generator, turns gravity into electricity, I will let you know how it goes

Rad. I want a gravity powered bike that goes uphill. For that, I would even gain all my lost weight back, if it helped.

 

[JackFlorey]

If you're grid-tied solar, and there's a power outage, your panels won't be powering your house. Power company controls your output and prevents backfeeding to the grid during an outage, so lineman can safely make repairs

Nowadays they do. Many solar-only systems like SMA have a "secure power" option that gives you up to 2000 watts (while the sun is out of course.) And newer systems with batteries provide 24/7 backup.

 

[classicalgas]

my primary “dribble” over that time was to show how unviable Wind and Solar are on a practical and financial basis.

ROFLMAO! Solar, worldwide is cheaper than brown coal, cheaper than nukes, cheaper than NG. Solar is where all the smart investment money is going. Rooftop solar with local storage is cheaper than brown coal even if you include the storage costs.

"BUT ,..you need approval from the local utility to use it"…VPPs ARE the local utility. They lease you the equipment and their software tends it.

"no sun"? on the dark side of the moon, maybe? Every day the local power company can keep their NG generators running at low levels instead of flat out, is money in their pocket. If VPPs aren't viable, why are they one of the fastest growing segments of the energy sector?

Thanks for confirming your dribble status.

 

[JackFlorey]

working on the Gravity Wheel Generator, turns gravity into electricity, I will let you know how it goes

How about a perpetual motion magnet motor that runs forever? Or an overbalance wheel that just keeps turning? Or a gas engine that runs on water - with the secret carburetor that the oil companies don't want you to know about, of course!

Good array of them here: https://www.artofit.org/image-gallery/985231153712155/perpetual-motion-machines-in-action/

 

[Hillhater]

Put wind turbine fan on electric bike to get charge when parked in windy area,

Sure,…have you actually done it ?
in most places, it would just get stolen !……bike as well .

 

[classicalgas]

"Ask germany about doing it at scale !"

Ask germany about basing your national energy budget on cheap foreign NG, that can get pulled anytime a dictator wants to threaten the world.

Buy 80% of your energy from an ex KGB spy? What could possibly go wrong?

 

[harrisonpatm]

Sure, there is technology available for that ….BUT ,..you need approval from the local utility to use it…and it is not allowed in many areas for both the reason (safety) mentioned and other important utility operational factors.
Some utilities are now insisting on not only haveing control (remotely) of that feed in ability, but also to control the actual output of those privately owned solar panels on the roof !..IE they have the ability to stop ypu using your own solar and force you to use only grid supply ..if you want any power at all !

I was going to respond with the same. This is true for my area.

 

[Hillhater]

Anybody else want to try an answer to my previous question.…
..as yet no convincing answers ?

..remembering that CO2 is in a constant planetary “carbon cycle” ……
… how can we be sure that the increase in atmospheric CO2 , (280-420 ppm), is the result of increased emmissions, rather than a decrease in adsorbtion By the natural sinks ( eg,.warmer oceans). ?

 

[nicobie]

Anybody else want to try an answer to my previous question.…
..as yet no convincing answers ?

..remembering that CO2 is in a constant planetary “carbon cycle” ……
… how can we be sure that the increase in atmospheric CO2 , (280-420 ppm), is the result of increased emmissions, rather than a decrease in adsorbtion By the natural sinks ( eg,.warmer oceans). ?

Please calm down and try to keep your remarks about electric bikes.

 

[JackFlorey]

I was going to respond with the same. This is true for my area.

You can always put in a self-supply system. They can't regulate that, since you never feed back.

But if you want to feed back you have to play by their rules. I have grid tie solar and battery storage, and I feed back when the grid is short of power through the OhmConnect program. Made $1800 so far.

 

[harrisonpatm]

You can always put in a self-supply system. They can't regulate that, since you never feed back.

I can and I have.

But if you want to feed back you have to play by their rules.

Which is exactly why I don't. They payback only about 1/3 of what it costs me to buy from them (ie, if I pay $0.90/kwh to get power from them, they only pay me $0.30 for any power I send back downstream). If they let you grid tie at all; in my area, the utility company recently signed a bill to "allow" 3% of their customers to participate in a grid-tie solar buyback program. That was an increase, from the 1% that was previously allowed. So you can be all about the solar program, get your permits approved by the city, and the utility company can just say no, you can't have solar.

Whereas with my solar self-supply, and a battery, I get 100% of the energy my panels generate, and it offsets my grid use. This method is far from user-friendly, I wouldn't recommended it for everyone. But the benefit is clear: every KWH I use from my solar is a KWH that I don't buy from the grid. And that's just the selfish benefit, because you could also say that every KWH that I don't use from the grid is a KWH that my neighbor can use, lightening the load on the grid just a tiny bit.

It's where Chalo and I agree, that the regulations in place to make it easy for people to adopt solar on a large scale are just so far behind and not at all in the best interests of the average person.

 

[Hillhater]

Please calm down and try to keep your remarks about electric bikes.

?..what makes you think i am not calm ?
And why keep to electric bikes in the “Off Topic” section of the Biker bar ?
there are many other threads on ES discussing topics unrelated to ebikes.. eg ;-gardening, boats, aircraft, 3d printing, etc…
….so why suggest that one of the most posted topics on ES should suddenly focus only on ebikes ?
And , the question i posted ..CO2 levels …is fundamental to the basis of Endless Sphere !

PS.. i posted a reply to this comment of yours previously, ..but it seems to have dissapeared ?
..or are you now actively censoring posts to suit you own agenda ?

 

[Hillhater]

. I have grid tie solar and battery storage, and I feed back when the grid is short of power through the OhmConnect program. Made $1800 so far.

Jack, you are fortunate.
There is no such service available in Australia, or much of the rest of the world.
At best, a few early adopters of RT solar had an oportunity to benefit from a FIT of 100+% of the supply charge, for a few years.
but currently the best FIT available is approx 30% of supply charge ( 10c FIT , vs 30c Supply)..with many strings attached and catches involved.
.By “self supply” i assume you mean fully off grid ?… if so that would mean you need a battery sufficient for overnight and cloudy day continuity of supply, and even a back up generator for those inevitable winter dull periods.
That becomes a large investment case, and of course is only an option to property owners who do not live in a city or strata type situation.

 

[Chalo]

If you're grid-tied solar, and there's a power outage, your panels won't be powering your house. Power company controls your output and prevents backfeeding to the grid during an outage, so lineman can safely make repairs

You can't simply cut the main breaker and use whatever power you make?

I honestly don't understand the technical limitations of grid tie solar systems. But it seems to me there is no practical reason that it shouldn't be able to operate independently when severed from the grid.

 

[floydr]

I honestly don't understand the technical limitations of grid tie solar systems. But it seems to me there is no practical reason that it shouldn't be able to operate independently when severed from the grid.

The anti - island feature shuts down the grid tie inverter to safe guard the Linemen who are working on the lines to restore power.
Most straight solar grid tie inverters don't have an ATS so can't self isolate
Later floyd

 

[harrisonpatm]

The anti - island feature shuts down the grid tie inverter to safe guard the Linemen who are working on the lines to restore power.
Most straight solar grid tie inverters don't have an ATS so can't self isolate
Later floyd

The grid tie inverter feeds your main breaker panel This is one way you're prevented from using the panels during an outage. And as started earlier, if you want to do a grid tie system, you have to play by their rules, meaning you have to use what equipment they tell you to use.

 

[JackFlorey]

Which is exactly why I don't. They payback only about 1/3 of what it costs me to buy from them (ie, if I pay $0.90/kwh to get power from them, they only pay me $0.30 for any power I send back downstream).

We are under NEM 1.0 which is true net metering. Every kwhr we generate and feed back offsets a kwhr we use.

My sister-in-law's house is NEM 2.0, which is similar but takes into account TOU - so that you make more for production at 5pm than you do at 10am. Her system got installed just before the deadline to switch to 3.0.

The system in place for new installs now is NEM 3.0, which reduces the value of exports by 75%. It make solar uneconomical unless you add battery storage - which is why basically all systems sold here now include at least some battery storage.

If they let you grid tie at all; in my area, the utility company recently signed a bill to "allow" 3% of their customers to participate in a grid-tie solar buyback program. That was an increase, from the 1% that was previously allowed.

In that way solar has become a victim of its own success. All the original net metering programs allowed for a maximum of 1% of their generation to come from residential/small business solar, because 1% didn't affect utilities much. And at the time no one thought they would ever reach 1% since solar was so expensive.

Then it got cheap, and millions adopted it - and utilities have been scrambling to catch up. At every solar trade show I go to there's a talk about how "the old utility paradigm doesn't work any more!" But I have yet to see a new plan that works.

Whereas with my solar self-supply, and a battery, I get 100% of the energy my panels generate, and it offsets my grid use. This method is far from user-friendly, I wouldn't recommended it for everyone.

Hmm. Modern hybrid inverters make this as easy as selecting "self consumption" in their menu. But glad your system works for you.

And that's just the selfish benefit, because you could also say that every KWH that I don't use from the grid is a KWH that my neighbor can use, lightening the load on the grid just a tiny bit.

Yep. During the day I am supplying a lot of my neighbor's power, and that's power that doesn't have to flow over any transmission line.

It's where Chalo and I agree, that the regulations in place to make it easy for people to adopt solar on a large scale are just so far behind and not at all in the best interests of the average person.

Yeah, the #1 reason why solar is more expensive in the US than in most European countries is the costs of code compliance, permitting and inspection. We should fix that.

 

[JackFlorey]

You can't simply cut the main breaker and use whatever power you make?

I honestly don't understand the technical limitations of grid tie solar systems. But it seems to me there is no practical reason that it shouldn't be able to operate independently when severed from the grid.

If you have a "standard" (i.e. non-hybrid) solar power system it will not grid-form; it will only grid-follow. In other words it needs a sine wave to sync to. When power goes out it gives up. This is both to make design easier and to ensure that the system shuts down and doesn't try to feed back to a "dead" grid which is super dangerous for linemen.

Most standard (non-hybrid) solar power systems now have an emergency power output that will basically provide an outlet that gives you power while the sun is out. Most people plug things in directly, so they can charge their phones, flashlights, radios etc. Heck, you could even charge an EV at Level 1.

Some people have wired them such that they will feed back to the house's loads. You do this by building the dreaded and dangerous "two ended male extension cord" and plugging one end into the inverter and the other into a home outlet. Then you turn off the main breaker, keep the breaker to that outlet on, and the power feeds back to the home and powers everything up to the limit of the inverter (2000 watts in the case of SMA.)

But of course such schemes are fraught with danger, for both the user and the utility. The smarter way to do it nowadays is to move your important loads (outlets, lights, furnace etc) to an "essentials panel" and then run that panel from a hybrid inverter. That way there's no risk of backfeeding the grid, the loads the inverter has to handle are lower, and there are no unexpectedly energized conductors. Nowadays you can get hybrid inverters with or without batteries, and if you change your mind later you can add batteries then.