Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[Hillhater]

The reason we even have nuclear power generation at scale is because it generates weapons grade byproducts. It's not a good reason, but it is the reason. That's why safer, more efficient, less polluting, lower EROEI alternative fission plant designs were never fully developed and commercialized. They still haven't made the case for themselves as being commercially viable in practice. I expect we'll see eventually whether they are or not, but there's no getting around the fact that this is very expensive tech with very expensive long term externalities of security, site cleanup, and waste disposal, plus undesirable suppressive effects on property values and land uses.

Yes, the reason we dont have safer, more efficient, less problematic, less polluting, Nuclear designs ,…is a political/military decision rather than any technical reason…
…but that may have been very beneficial in geopolitical terms ?
However, given that we have now been directed down this particular technology path for power generation, i do not agree that this is …

very expensive tech with very expensive long term externalities….

for those who dont read other threads etc..

Full cost comparason between Wind , solar, coal, gas, Nuclear

A new methad of comparing the full costs of different grid generation options that allows for the intermittent character of wind and solar, the storage needed to enable continuity of supply, and additional infrastructure requirements.. Based on data from Germany and Texas. Levelised Full System...

endless-sphere.com

 

[Hillhater]

tech with very expensive long term externalities of security, site cleanup, and waste disposal, plus undesirable suppressive effects on property values and land uses.

If you think so …… but you can easily lay most of that list onto Wind and Solar at grid scale !

 

[Voltron]

Well, one thing about solar and wind farms, they can coexist with a real farm. Nuclear and coal plants don't go well with real plants

These new vertical solar systems are specially designed for farms

Ground-mount solar installer Sunstall has launched Sunzaun, a company that makes vertical solar systems for farms and agricultural settings.

electrek.co

 

[Chalo]

Well, one thing about solar and wind farms, they can coexist with a real farm. Nuclear and coal plants don't go well with real plants

Nobody wants to share space with a nuclear or fossil power plant. So those facilities not only occupy huge swaths of land directly, but they sharply limit the economic uses of all the land for kilometers around them. This is one of the many externalized costs that is never accounted for when promoters of those industries disingenuously compare the cost of green energy to that of black energy.

None of those black energy boosters choose to live right next to the power stations they describe as so benign, even though it would be a great bargain for them to do so.

 

[DaLanMan]

The character reactor on the edge of Livermore Ca is literally adjacent to the experimental spider research facility., That was a scary thought but evidently it ain't arachnoid, it is an acronym for something...

Next to both are fields with cows and oak tree's, low pressure reactors are safe, and clean and I would have one in my backyard

 

[Voltron]

California has some of the most toxic radiation sites in the country, including Santa Susana and multiple military waste dumps, both on land, and just offshore underwater.

"Under the cloak of secrecy, the lab conducted experiments with plutonium and uranium, and fabricated prototype weapons parts. At its large test range near Tracy, in Northern California, it blew up atomic triggers that used depleted uranium.

In the process, Livermore released uranium, tritium, solvents and high explosive residues into the ground and groundwater, said Judy Steenhoven, deputy chief of environmental restoration at the lab. The contaminants, however, have not affected public water supplies. Although Livermore’s contamination is far less potent than at other sites in the nuclear-weapons complex, it is unlikely that the land will ever be suitable for homes or other uses for the general public."

 

[Chalo]

The character reactor on the edge of Livermore Ca is literally adjacent to the experimental spider research facility., That was a scary thought but evidently it ain't arachnoid, it is an acronym for something...

Next to both are fields with cows and oak tree's, low pressure reactors are safe, and clean and I would have one in my backyard

Research reactors are not only hugely different in scale than commercial nuclear power plant, but they're run by academics rather than corporations trying to maximize profits.

I still wouldn't have one in my backyard, but you're talking about a very different animal.

SL-1 was a small research reactor, and we can see how that one worked out. Lead coffins. Maybe you'll volunteer your backyard as the gravesite the next time one is needed.

Image Archive: The SL-1 Reactor Accident - Lead casket containing the radioactive body of a reactor operator.

 

[DaLanMan]

SL-1 was a small research reactor, and we can see how that one worked out. Lead coffins. Maybe you'll volunteer your backyard as the gravesite the next time one is needed.

Image Archive: The SL-1 Reactor Accident - Lead casket containing the radioactive body of a reactor operator.

Well now that is a wee bit personal.

And for the record, I have buried the dead after combat, I have prepped bodies to be sent home to their families, and I have hand delivered letters to every parent whose child died under my command. So yeah, I will volunteer, will you?

Livermore Labs also gave out materials from the sewage treatment facility they had on the grounds. It was high quality manure they had even gone to the point of analysing it and back filling it to be better.

Which is why you are supposed to wear a respirator when you go to big tree's park. It is a beautiful place, pretty much vacant all the time, it is directly next to an elementary school. I bought the house across the street from it when my daughter was born.

And yep, there was in fact plutonium in micro amounts in the park... whats the safe level of exposure to plutonium? none, there is no safe exposure level.

Pity they did not check for leaked volatiles in the testing, but, honestly, shit happens. While as a scientist I have full grasp of the risks in failed process, and I am intimately familiar with what happens to the human body when it is inflicted with extreme events. I still jumped out of planes and kicked in doors, I am not trying to prosyltise, and I actually do not recommend military service in most cases, honestly, it probably was not real good for me.

But something ya might want to take into consideration. When you see the big sleepy looking guy who tends to crack a lot of jokes and never really takes too much seriously, in this case, that person is a vet, who served for 10 years in the Rangers. Then had close contact with an explosion and came out of it with a broken pelvis. The first question I asked the Dr's was "How long until I can get back with my men" I don't require or expect any cow towing. For me it is water off a ducks back. I am an Irish Born bastard (born out of wedlock, not referring to my personality) I have heard it all and then some. But understand, a lot of the guys that went and served so that you *DON'T HAVE TO* Would like at least a little common courtesy when you are speaking about things you will never really understand. Please do not assume that us ignorant soldier types are stupid, or we don't know what we are really talking about. I have been on the sharp end. I have a pretty good idea what happens out there.

And yes, I would still volunteer to have one in "my back yard" while not literally, my back yard is the size of a postage stamp. but down the block a bit wouldn't bother me too much. While I crack jokes about my intellect, this came from the abrupt event that left me the dumbest guy in the room. I worked with a bunch of lads from MIT, suddenly Cal and UCLA were rather insignificant.

The difference between my perspective and the folks that whinge like a dog in heat... I understand what a third world country is. I have been to many of them. I have helped dig wells, Seen what happens when people can't even get decent soap and get infestations in their feet. If I have to deal with a bit of mess or pollution so my kiddo can have electric lights, clean water and a heated home... Ok, I am perfectly willing to accept the reality of the situation. It means we have to deal with some nasty in life. I have been on the other side.. and is sucked. Good people, but Oh no, I like running water and soil that is not infested with parasites. Call me all wacka doo, but I think the problems that come with modern society do need to be addressed, but I have this horrific inability to stick my head in the sand and pretend that it is all just the bad people making this happen. Sorry brother, you have an E-bike. You are directly responsible for some of the nastiest mining and rare earth gathering on the planet, the things you have never seen about the reality of where all these minerals come from is simply breathtaking. Me too.

Accepting that there is a problem is the first step. I think the motto should go on to "and not screaming about whose fault is this" should be the second.

 

[Hillhater]

The US government opens 22 million acres of federal lands to solar​

The US government opens 22 million acres of federal lands to solar

The Biden administration has updated the roadmap for solar development to 22 million acres of federal lands in the US West.

electrek.co

..That should keep the solar installation boys busy for a while !

 

[Voltron]

It doesn't have to be put up with plutonium in parks or else we'll be a third world hellhole.
There's better solutions to both problems.
And anybody taking smack about about the toxic mining for battery materials while promoting nuclear seems pretty disingenuous, considering the long term deadliness of uranium mining and processing, which have left some of the most toxic sites in the world.

 

[DaLanMan]

I was not defending either, I was actually saying that there are non-uranium power generation systems thaat... etc etc.

Also, I own a platinum mine, lock stock and barrel, good material too... Except that it is hotter than hell and getting production running would cost about as much as the platinum that is validated to be there. So, it becomes one of those weird risk events.

I literally won this in a bet, and knew the issues before I accepted it. has opened a number of conversations over the years.

 

[TheBeastie]

One thing I have found the most frustrating about wind/solar projects is they list their "name plate capacity" which is usually around 25% of their real world output, so for the Topaz Solar farm which is listed as 550MW, it is only in fact about 125MW on average, this is it's "capacity factor". So 125MW is it's real world output if it was performing like a conventional power plant and could generally provide "electricity as a 24/7 service".

Topaz Solar Farm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

While a properly performing typical nuclear plant is around 90% because refuelling the reactor core can go over 1 year before shutting down for the refuelling process.
And with conventional energy, the more units you run (like reactor cores) at a single plant then the more general reliability of outputting power increases, which is another way to just see it as capacity factor.

We now have AI and can merely ask it to compare the biggest and best renewables projects performance/cost data with nuclear, and merely ask the AI to create a comparison table, the results are the same as what I have calculated manually, it is great to see it pop out these tables with nothing but a simple non math based question.

chatGPT v5 is around corner and is already being tested, and apparently it is so good that the US government is examining/testing it before it goes public because it is becoming just truly scary smart.

Here are my results via a fully shareable and verifiable URL link to chatGPT (using the free version of v4) so that you can see the data sources and math output of it's summary results of comparing real world data of the biggest and best wind and solar renewables projects compared with nuclear. Some of you will recognise a lot of this math such as converting a power projects real world average MW output, but now AI does it all by itself by getting the data from Wikipedia/EIA.

ChatGPT - Topaz Solar Farm Cost

Shared via ChatGPT

chatgpt.com

^chatGPT sharable URL to look at the questions asked and it's math. I believe these latest AI models use "multimodal python" to activate a pure math based part of the AI for working out math. Eitherway the results are perfect and just like how it would be if you did it all manually on a calculator.

Parameter	Topaz Solar Farm	Shepherds Flat Wind Farm	Barakah Nuclear Power Plant
Average Annual Production	1,100 GWh	2,000 GWh	43,574.4 GWh
Cost to Build	$2.5 billion	$2 billion	$24.4 billion
Site Area	24.6 km²	77 km²	6 km²
Construction Time	2011-2014 (3 years)	2009-2012 (3 years)	2012-2020 (8 years)
Installed Capacity	550 MW	845 MW	5,600 MW
Average Power Output	~125.6 MW	~228.3 MW	~4,984 MW
Capacity Factor	~22.8%	~27.0%	~89%
Cost per MW of Average Power Output	~$19.9 million/MW	~$8.8 million/MW	~$4.9 million/MW
Production Factor Compared to Barakah	~39.6 times less	~21.8 times less	N/A
Cost per MW with Storage	~$27.07 million/MW	~$15.92 million/MW	N/A
Total Cost to Match Barakah Output	~$134.91 billion	~$79.43 billion	$24.4 billion
Lifespan	25-30 years	20-25 years	40-60 years
Cost per GWh over Lifespan	~$112.4/MWh	~$80.8/MWh	~$11.2/MWh

 

[Hillhater]

Sadly, few , if any, of the worlds governments appear to have the mental acuity to realise the difference between a reliable 24/7 consistent power generation platform, and a intermittent , weather dependant, unpredictable , money making sham .. that is Wind and Solar generation ( even with impossible amounts of expensive battery storage) .
When the world eventually comes to its senses and sees through the myth of CO2/ AGW, ..perhaps we can resort to the proven, reliable, cheap, generators fueled by our enormous reserves of Coal and Gas ..( which run at 90-95% CF when not hobbled by having to support unreliable Wind/Solar experiments.

Yet another research result from the University of Athens goes againt the narrative ! https://www.researchgate.net/public..._and_Sinks_No_Change_since_the_Little_Ice_Age.
Isotope analysis of the carbon in the atmospheric CO2 clearly shows that increase in CO2 is natural and man’s contribution is around 4%. Other research by the Athens team shows that rising CO2 levels are caused by rising temperatures, not the other way round.”

 

[Ianhill]

Can we have a dislike button please ?

Bored of hearing the same rhetoric.

Who do you think your fooling the shame is you have good knowledge but refuse to have any rounded thought at all just same speech of keep on burning baby no limits no health risk no nothing, co2 is a myth there is no warming prove it the science is flawed.

Thing is its on you to prove otherwise, the goverments don't help they not even decided themselfs as lobbyist have deep pockets and money is a MP favourite and evem then wind and solar has still infiltrated the system.

Face it any grid that is dependable on one fuel alone is a majorly unstable grid in itself just look at uk prices of energy gone up even though on shore wind (cheapest form of energy) has been baned simce 2015 and they scrapped that police recently to keep energy prices down.


Gas aint cheap and by time we account for its leakages tp atmosphere its debatable if its even better tham coal.

Its obvious that wind and solar will need a dam or flywheel system to handle grid inertia but to right it off and say coal is a winner is mental, and I'm from a mining village with a mining father and bamp and live in the remains of the mess.

Coal was a issue for wales as it was the only money stream and same as the fate of oil to a country can be devastating so can coal im not advocate of coal dusty messy crap gets everywhere there's better ways of creating steam.

People look back at coal with pride but those miners got taken for granted and payed nothing worth while trapped only winners was the ones that never held a pick and shovel in they life same goes on today just in different ways OIL GAS !!!

 

[Hillhater]

Bored of hearing the same rhetoric.

Who do you think your fooling the shame is you have good knowledge but refuse to have any rounded thought at all just same speech of keep on burning baby no limits no health risk no nothing, co2 is a myth there is no warming prove it the science is flawed

You are not hearing, you are reading, which is not compulsory !
Of course its the same speech,…because the facts are still the same.
But no, i do not have to prove anything, i am comfortable with my understanding and know that eventually the truth will prevail.
The planet is surely warming as it is still recovering from the Ice Age ( though the metrics to quantify that are debateable and frequently manipulated ).
What is disputed however, is the mechanism of that warming with anthropogenic CO2 being the current guilty party according to the IPCC.

Face it any grid that is dependable on one fuel alone is a majorly unstable grid in itself just look at uk prices of energy gone up even though on shore wind (cheapest form of energy) has been baned simce 2015 and they scrapped that police recently to keep energy prices down.
Gas aint cheap and by time we account for its leakages tp atmosphere its debatable if its even better tham coal.

I dont propose that any grid should rely on one single energy source, though coal has played that part on several grids over many years. However, a dependable “Primary ” generation system should be powered by a locally sourced energy supply,..be that coal, gas, hydro, geothermal, etc. ..Wind and Solar are useful for remote or non critical power generation.( with storage / backup).
You can convince yourself that On shore wind is the “cheapest form of energy”, but that does not mean it is the cheapest source of electricity to the consumers , ( see Beasties post above)…and as countries around the world have discovered once they have adapted their grids to suit the remote and intermittent generation.
Gas itself is also a “free” energy source manufactured , like wind or solar and coal, by mother nature nature, but the technology and cost of converting it to electricity are significant.

Its obvious that wind and solar will need a dam or flywheel system to handle grid inertia but to right it off and say coal is a winner is mental,

It is going to need a LOT of dams or batteries to make Wind/Solar a viable replacement for a continuous generation system, and thase “back ups“, are where major extra costs are being ignored.
Sure coal is not perfect, but the main argument against it is the CO2 emissions which is a total falacy . Even The health concerns should be viewed against the huge benefits that fossil energy has brought to the world with population growth and living standards dramatically increasing since the adoption of its use.
a very brief review of electricity generation worldwide will show that Coal is still the main energy source with little sign of that changing dramaticaly in the future.

 

[Ianhill]

Wish i had your rose tinted glasses to view the men with coal dust on they chest coughing and spluttering, or the children of industrial towns and alike gaining asthma and its related deaths on ypung lungs that have reduced massively in the impacted areas, even with the motor car uptake skewing the results

If coming out of an ice age is to blame for the warming how is it so rapid with no clear driving force every event has had a clear signal yet ours is not there because its clear its us thats creating the issue bu theres so much money envolved in it its been brushed under the carpet even exon said they believe its an issue to goverment to be told shut the f up thats un american we love oil yee ha.

 

[Hillhater]

Sounds like you have never seen a modern coal mine or coal generator plant ?
its not pick, shovel, and pit pony’s anymore.
even the haul trucks are automated & driverless.
Current OHS legislation prevents those old images from reocurring.
The driving force for warming is the same as it was to melt the “Snowball Earth” to whereit is today,.. IE the sun.
Rapid Temp change periods have been identified through Earths history, as have Sea level changes, Ice sheet variations etc.
Nothing new here,…. except for human belief they can influence and control the planets climate !

 

[Ianhill]

I worked in a coal power plant and the local steel works, i watched them disperse soot and smelt their sulpur i guess u have some form of experience to say its all different now when its not.

Minings changed no doubt the picks are gone and mechanisation all about output was brought in till the mines was shut then the mountian was just fully removed over 6 years, still loads of coal just below valley level.

The dust this brought about for the people pegging out clothes was worse than they started, not to mention the road network still is not repaired and slag heaps are just left to go wild amd called a insect haven absolute piss take all costs of coal.

I worked alongside white asbestos lagged pipes with no prior warning the industry was shit to its workers and thats my point i used the pick and shovel as a analogy, thank to god theres enough people in goverment see sence on that its been shut for years now, and the steel works just dumped its 2 blast furnces for an arc reactor all in effort to combat this bullshit ideolgy everyone has that is climate change.

 

[Hillhater]

Last month the UK announced the closure of its last Coal fired power plant.
This month the once “ Great” Britain, is suffering from serious shortage of electricity generation as Wind generation battles the annual lack of wind resulting in emergency measures being activated.

Blackout prevention system mobilised as Britain battles low winds​

and in addition..

U.K. Faces Economic Ruin with World’s Highest Electricity Prices​

The U.K. government published international energy price comparisons based on data from the International Energy Agency. ….…

Over the last two years, 2021 to 2023, industrial electricity prices in the U.K. have increased by 89%, while they increased by 29% in Canada. The UK electricity prices are the highest of 28 countries covered by the IEA report. This DailySceptic article says “We cannot hope to compete in traditional energy intensive industries, or industries of the future like making batteries or AI, with such extortionate electricity prices.” The U.K. domestic electricity prices are even worse at 36.39 p/kWh. This is 3.3 times the Canadian price of 10.87 p/kWh. The article says “This level of price differential is an existential threat to the economy.” The cost of renewables subsidies, carbon taxes, emissions trading, grid balancing and capacity market estimated at 19.1 billion British pounds (£) is driving up electricity prices. The government recently announced plans to spend £22 billion “on carbon capture and storage which will reduce efficiency and push up the costs of gas-fired electricity even further.”

.. What brilliant leaders we have to guide us ..?

 

[classicalgas]

Three mile island, chernobyl and fukishima all problems we face with nuclear, I'm all for nuclear but I believe there needs to be a world wide approved reactor that is safe and reliable with a thought out process to deal with the waste other than dump it in ponds for future generations to then process it into storage containers in a warehouse.

I hear people say send it into space and its just laughable that as a group we take such stupid risks that are 3asily avoidable with less haste more investment, research and knowledge.

In Wales we plan to store the waste deep in a mine just outside the reactor rather than send it by rail across the country to Sellafield and there's a big can of worms itself but to put it in a mine is a lazy way of making money we need a proper long term way of creating large vasts of clean energy solar and wind is not the way just look at Britain's grid we have lots of wind and we have peaked at just under 10gw average for the day on wind alone but even then without nuclear and ccgt the lights would of gone off the grid is developed country's is such a mixed bag it's very well worth looking into very varied and well engineered to live on a knifes edge all the time.

At the end we need fusion we can have our cake and eat it it will power dense populated arras with easy very little land mass taken up oand small dangers present at generation and disposal or the waste if we want to reach to the stars it's our next step forward logically to use the most abundant resource to gain access to the largest clean power source theoretically on offer and within touching distance.

We've already got a nice reliable fusion power reactor...we call it "the sun". All we need to do is collect the power it's already sending us for free.

The price to do that drops every year, and since the panels are modular, we can but them over all sorts of things ( saving land costs)....parking lots, irrigation ditches, farm fields, water reservoirs, roof tops...

 

[Ianhill]

We've already got a nice reliable fusion power reactor...we call it "the sun". All we need to do is collect the power it's already sending us for free.

The price to do that drops every year, and since the panels are modular, we can but them over all sorts of things ( saving land costs)....parking lots, irrigation ditches, farm fields, water reservoirs, roof tops...

7 year's has passed now what the case ? Uk max wind generation was set year and half ago 10.5gw and solar generation peaked this year at 15gw still not even half of peak supply so no matter how the figures get presented the truth is we are a 1/3rd of the way to getting green at best and the next 2/3 present the real difficulty when base load generation starts to reduce the grid will fluctuate.

The national grid is going through its largest expansion of interlinks ever to try and distribute what will be no longer be generated in one spot but locally everywhere means alot more copper and hv line are needed costing crippling amounts.

My local hospital main hospital is shut due to lack of investment and the roof collapsing with no real plan or money to fix it, My pregnant partner has had horrendous treatment so to be honest i dont even care about the grid or how it will power itself no more there's austerity in rural areas of uk thats shameful.

The grid will be used as a weapon against us like Margaret thatcher did the local council is already .5 billion in dept for 2026 fiscal year so i look forward to no rubbish collection lack of services in lawless areas of uk that already exist expanding and replicating while the elite ruling class carry on regardless with the agenda for the sake of human kind lmao while ruining tens of millions of lives.

 

[Hillhater]

We've already got a nice reliable fusion power reactor...we call it "the sun". All we need to do is collect the power it's already sending us for free.

Thats a Idealistic view that has yet to be shown possible anywhere in the world.

 

[classicalgas]

Thats a Idealistic view that has yet to be shown possible anywhere in the world.

Yet worldwide investment in solar (even when no government subsidies exist) continues to grow faster than any other sector of the electricity generation industry

'Winning the race': How China plans to meet its 2030 renewables target by the end of this month

While Australia debates the merits of going nuclear and frustration grows over the slower-than-needed switch to solar and wind power, China's renewables rollout is breaking all the records.

www.abc.net.au

Even solar energy’s biggest fans are underestimating it

Solar’s extraordinary forecast-defying growth, explained.

www.vox.com

And nukes are stuck at about 4% of worldwide electricity production. They take too log too build, the NIMBY factor is strong, and costs for running them are high.

look at the third graph here...https://ourworldindata.org/cheap-renewables-growth

 

[Hillhater]

Yet worldwide investment in solar (even when no government subsidies exist) continues to grow faster than any other sector of the electricity generation industry

You dont say where you live,…. but certainly here in Australia we are installing more solar per head of population than anywhere else in the world,..because there are still big government subsidies, retail Feed in Tarrifs, AND huge “carbon credits” paid to commercial solar and wind generators.
Power generation is a business, and like anyother it must be profitable to survive
Even Warren Buffet has stated that without incentives Solar and wind are not financially viable.
Countries like Australia that have high % of wind and solar generation (30+%) are experiencing limitations to further additions as a result of the inconsistency of generation and subsequent risk of shortages/ blackouts.
Unfortunately for the end consumers, more solar and wind just means increasing power costs.

 

[stancecoke]

Unfortunately for the end consumers, more solar and wind just means increasing power costs

That's complete rubbish. Sad to see people writing such nonsense without giving reliable sources.

Levelized Cost of Energy+

Levelized Cost of Energy+

www.lazard.com

World Energy Outlook 2024 - Event - IEA

World Energy Outlook 2024 - Event listed by the International Energy Agency

www.iea.org