MJSfoto1956
10 kW
Hillhater said:
Oh! Mormon are you? That's bigayou!!!
Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear
- Thread starter Hillhater
- Start date
Oh! Mormon are you? That's bigayou!!!
jonescg
100 MW
Yes, still grid connected. And I don't care if they pay me nothing for the power I push onto the grid. I just manage my loads for so I can maximise daytime usage. I still pay a dollar a day which pays for network upkeep.
So spare me your pensioner tears.
BTW - In WA we are only limited to 5 kW export. So there is nothing stopping you from using a few kW and exporting the difference.
So spare me your pensioner tears.
BTW - In WA we are only limited to 5 kW export. So there is nothing stopping you from using a few kW and exporting the difference.
Hillhater
100 TW
Errr..No ! Your dollar a day does not pay for network upkeep..that is just a "connection charge" .jonescg said:
Network upkeep, or "distribution service and maintainance costs". Are what makes the biggest part of the usage charge (kWh cost)
Wholesale cost for electricity is approx $0.08 -$0.09 kWh, whilst the retail consumer charge is $0.30 - $0.40 /kWh
The difference ($0.20-$0.30/kWh is ade up of various costs and margins etc, but the largest proportion is the "Distribution and Maintenance" costs...costs for the "Poles and Wires" if you prefer !
And its not just the pensioners that are taking up your slack, its the school teachers, bus drivers, garbo's, nurses, truckies, shop workers, and all those businesses and industries that rely on electricity to function,..etc etc.
But dont let that twitch your sodcial consience if you are happy saving money at someone else's expence, and likely contributing to the demise of industry and businesses that will relocate overseas for cheaper power in order to remain competitive.!
jonescg
100 MW
What were you saying about supply charges?
Hillhater
100 TW
So if you had a $1000 bill, then $450 would be that "Network charge" ?
Thats a bit steep for a 90 day bill period ?
Conversly , how does that work for you with no kWh consumed , and $1/ day charge .?
Me thinks someone has got their facts screwed up !... Network costs are not a % of the total bill.
"Distribution costs" are a portion of the "consumption" rate (kWh) and network costs are a FIXED daily charge (approx $1.0 /day in Au)
Thats a bit steep for a 90 day bill period ?
Conversly , how does that work for you with no kWh consumed , and $1/ day charge .?
Me thinks someone has got their facts screwed up !... Network costs are not a % of the total bill.
"Distribution costs" are a portion of the "consumption" rate (kWh) and network costs are a FIXED daily charge (approx $1.0 /day in Au)
jonescg said:
Can you share some details ? I imagine you installed your system yourself, but you likely still had to have a certified electrician (unless you're one) doing the interconnect. Additionally power company probably required a bump in liability insurance. So how did you arrive at such low cost of the system ?
jonescg
100 MW
Yes, used panels and inverter, in installed them myself and an electrician did the final connection. It's only a 2 kW system and we still pay for some power, but we have the option of changing how we use the energy and paying less.
Yes, it's a dollar a day, fixed charge. They present the proportion of fixed costs as a percentage of your bill.
I only screen-grabbed it for your reading convenience; it would be less than 45% if I had entered $300.
But contrary to your claim that the supply charge has nothing to do with poles and wires, it has everything to do with poles and wires.
Let me highlight the other sections for you:
View attachment 1
Yes, it's a dollar a day, fixed charge. They present the proportion of fixed costs as a percentage of your bill.
I only screen-grabbed it for your reading convenience; it would be less than 45% if I had entered $300.
But contrary to your claim that the supply charge has nothing to do with poles and wires, it has everything to do with poles and wires.
Let me highlight the other sections for you:
View attachment 1
jonescg
100 MW
Well there you go - they are still presenting it as a percentage:
They are being lazy - the most it will ever be is $1 a day, so $60 for a typical bill. The rest is energy cost.
They are being lazy - the most it will ever be is $1 a day, so $60 for a typical bill. The rest is energy cost.
Hillhater
100 TW
Sorry but No again .
.your fixed $1/day is just a "connection fee" that all grid consumers have to pay even if you use no electricity, and it is shown separately on the bill...$80-$90 a quarter.
You may call it a "Network cost" but that is not the same as the Network cost shown as a % of the consumption charge, on the Synergy site.
As i said before the "wholesale " cost of electricity is only 8-9 cents per kWh, the rest of the 30-40cents/kWh that they bill us for is the true "Distribution /Transmission cost".... (Which the Synergy site refers to as "Network costs"),
And it is that 20-30cents/kWh that you are passing on to other grid consumers when you use RT solar power.
.your fixed $1/day is just a "connection fee" that all grid consumers have to pay even if you use no electricity, and it is shown separately on the bill...$80-$90 a quarter.
You may call it a "Network cost" but that is not the same as the Network cost shown as a % of the consumption charge, on the Synergy site.
As i said before the "wholesale " cost of electricity is only 8-9 cents per kWh, the rest of the 30-40cents/kWh that they bill us for is the true "Distribution /Transmission cost".... (Which the Synergy site refers to as "Network costs"),
And it is that 20-30cents/kWh that you are passing on to other grid consumers when you use RT solar power.
https://gobulk.com.au/australian-electricity-prices/
jonescg
100 MW
Regardless of which part of my bill it comes from, I have no problem with paying for access to power, even if I don't use it. That I can export it is great - someone else can use the energy being supplied by a generator which ultimately displaces coal.
MJSfoto1956
10 kW
jonescg said:
HH is fuzzy on the concept.
MJSfoto1956
10 kW
billvon said:
I have found that generally, people who accuse others of being "alarmists" are projecting their own fears onto others.
sendler2112
100 kW
"In this low EROI future, we simply have to accept the hard fact that we will not be able to sustain current levels of economic growth. “Meeting current or growing levels of energy need in the next few decades with low-carbon solutions will be extremely difficult, if not impossible,” the paper finds. The economic transition must involve efforts “to lower total energy use.” But capitalist markets will not be capable of facilitating the required changes — governments will need to step up, and institutions will need to actively shape markets to fit the goals of human survival. Right now, the prospects for this look slim. But the new paper argues that either way, change is coming."
.
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/scientists-warn-the-un-of-capitalisms-imminent-demise-a679facac985
.
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/scientists-warn-the-un-of-capitalisms-imminent-demise-a679facac985
Sweden. approximate costs in US dollars
Yearly fee to company using zero electricity depending on electric connection to apartment or villa and power:
16a 3 phase apartment 100 dollar per year 0-8000 kwh
16a 3 phase villa 140 dollar 0-8000 kwh and 300 when usage is over 8000 kWh
25a 3 phase 600 dollar per 0+
transfer fees
0,080c $ for 0-8000 kwh
0,055c $ for 8000 kwh or more usage per year
0,05c $ electricity price right now 2019-02-11
0,08c $ electricity price in mid January 2019
taxes included(25% of total price)
so about 0,185$ per kwh 2019-02-11
electricity came from nuclear, 30%, wind 15%, reusable 12%, water 40%, unspecified 3%
0,20c $ per kwh for a small apartment max 8000 kWh per year going down to about
(my old apartment 16a, 1000 kwh per year, was about 200 dollars per year)
0,10c $ per kwh for villas or aparments using more than 8000-25000+ kwh per year
(my parents villa 25a, 20000 kwh per year pays about 2000 dollar every year)
Yearly fee to company using zero electricity depending on electric connection to apartment or villa and power:
16a 3 phase apartment 100 dollar per year 0-8000 kwh
16a 3 phase villa 140 dollar 0-8000 kwh and 300 when usage is over 8000 kWh
25a 3 phase 600 dollar per 0+
transfer fees
0,080c $ for 0-8000 kwh
0,055c $ for 8000 kwh or more usage per year
0,05c $ electricity price right now 2019-02-11
0,08c $ electricity price in mid January 2019
taxes included(25% of total price)
so about 0,185$ per kwh 2019-02-11
electricity came from nuclear, 30%, wind 15%, reusable 12%, water 40%, unspecified 3%
0,20c $ per kwh for a small apartment max 8000 kWh per year going down to about
(my old apartment 16a, 1000 kwh per year, was about 200 dollars per year)
0,10c $ per kwh for villas or aparments using more than 8000-25000+ kwh per year
(my parents villa 25a, 20000 kwh per year pays about 2000 dollar every year)
Hillhater
100 TW
No, quite the opposite.MJSfoto1956 said:
I may be crap at explaining the differece between a daily "connection" fee. ( billed separately in $$s/day), and a "Didtribution/Transmission cost" ( included in the $$s/kWh consumption cost). and consequently some may have difficulty understanding ...
..but that is very different to others who refuse to accept that every kWh of RT solar consumed, forces remaining grid users to carry a higher % of the grid operating costs.. ( Australian situation)
Totally clear to me.....hard to accept by the RT solar club.
billvon said:
No bill, our "daily connection charge" does not pay for upkeep....its purely an access fee.
Leffex..
Every country has different billing systems.
Your costs are held low due to the high % of long term established Hydro generation,
Hillhater
100 TW
I wont keep repeating it bill, but in Australia, the daily "Access fee", "Supply charge", "Connection fee", Usage charge, etc... (whatever name you call it,....does NOT pay for grid upkeep, distribution costs, Transmission cost, new poles and wires, transformers, or that fleet of service trucks !billvon said:
Those costs are added into the "wholesale power cost" , together with varios other charges, ..to result in the "Retail power cost". Which is billed as KWhs
This may well be different in your/ other countries
https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/electricity-supply-charges/
And this explains the usage charges (kWh)
..( note the reference to "Government Green Schemes" ..
IE the subsidies for the RT solar systems are also being paid by those grid consumers that cannot install/afford them !)
From your link:Hillhater said:
======
Why do I need to pay a supply charge?
The cost of energy distribution (i.e. maintaining the poles and wires) makes up a significant part of your overall power costs, with distributors in each state passing their costs onto the retailers, who then pass them onto their customers.
======
In other words, it pays for grid upkeep.
jonescg
100 MW
Indeed, if the supply charge / connection fee / daily unavoidable cost fee is attached to every bill and charged every day, WTF is it going towards if it's not going towards the costs of maintaining the supply of electricity to households?
Of course any additional costs are covered by the per kWh price of electricity. But if you can do it this way, why have an additional charge?
The answer in WA at least is because the supply charge / connection fee of $1.00 per day (currently) is the only way the state government can increase the take from electricity customers. They cannot, under the current legislation, increase the per kWh price of electricity. That is decided entirely by the AEMO.
Of course any additional costs are covered by the per kWh price of electricity. But if you can do it this way, why have an additional charge?
The answer in WA at least is because the supply charge / connection fee of $1.00 per day (currently) is the only way the state government can increase the take from electricity customers. They cannot, under the current legislation, increase the per kWh price of electricity. That is decided entirely by the AEMO.
Hillhater
100 TW
Look at the typical cost breakdown of an Au power bill..
Ignor the Tax component, and you can see that the "Line" costs (38%) are the larges part of the bill, with "Wholesale" ( 32%) making up most of the rest of the bill. That is accepted fact in Au
Common sense suggests that the $0.9 /day fixed charge cannot cover the 38% of the bill..
A). Because it would suggest a typical bill is only $2.40 per day ...when in reality an average bill is $5-$6 /day
B) because its a fixed rate and billed separately
C). Because we know that "consumption charges" are the largest part of the bill and comprise of the wholesale and line (distribution) costs (70% combined)
Power retailers are being very evasive of the daily charge details, as its widely accepted to be just a means of creaming more cash from customers and enabling them to advertise reduce consumption (kWh), costs to boost sales appeal.
In reality we get nothing for the daily charge.
Ignor the Tax component, and you can see that the "Line" costs (38%) are the larges part of the bill, with "Wholesale" ( 32%) making up most of the rest of the bill. That is accepted fact in Au
Common sense suggests that the $0.9 /day fixed charge cannot cover the 38% of the bill..
A). Because it would suggest a typical bill is only $2.40 per day ...when in reality an average bill is $5-$6 /day
B) because its a fixed rate and billed separately
C). Because we know that "consumption charges" are the largest part of the bill and comprise of the wholesale and line (distribution) costs (70% combined)
Power retailers are being very evasive of the daily charge details, as its widely accepted to be just a means of creaming more cash from customers and enabling them to advertise reduce consumption (kWh), costs to boost sales appeal.
In reality we get nothing for the daily charge.
jonescg
100 MW
Need I point out the irony that your screenshot is from a New Zealand website?
Hillhater
100 TW
It was the most descriptive diagram i could find.
As i said, Aussie power retailers are not keen on detailing their cost structure when they have a 300-400% mark up over the wholesale power cost !
The % are similar (Au actually has a higher % of "Line" costs)
This is data from a 2018 Au state (Tassie)
https://www.auroraenergy.com.au/your-home/bills-and-payments/your-bill-explained/electricity-cost-breakdown
As i said, Aussie power retailers are not keen on detailing their cost structure when they have a 300-400% mark up over the wholesale power cost !
The % are similar (Au actually has a higher % of "Line" costs)
This is data from a 2018 Au state (Tassie)
https://www.auroraenergy.com.au/your-home/bills-and-payments/your-bill-explained/electricity-cost-breakdown
I recently attended short presentation from a local engineering company that runs a small renewable energy site. The talk was called "The Problem with Renewable Energy" and detailed the growth and evolution of their scheme and how they had worked to overcome the variability of wind & solar power. The system is thus:
* Wind turbines initially installed with 40MW link to grid (capped by local grid infrastructure)
* PV installed - system generates more than the cap during summer/midday (wasted potential) and falls below it at mornings & evenings, unless windy
* Battery storage to shift some excess midday generation to several hours morning/evening to flatten supply curve
* Additional excess wind & PV generation used to produce hydrogen to power fleet of converted trucks for local authority (refuse collection etc)
* Kerbside collections of food waste used to produce biogas which is burnt in reciprocating generators to provide power during dark/low wind times
* Increase in installed PV (approx. 100MW) and power-hungry businesses invited to locate on site to ensure constant supply of mostly green power with multiple backups allows increased generation bypassing the grid connection cap.
The system is an entirely private venture operated for the purpose of profit and receives absolutely no subsidies for the power it exports to grid. Payback for the PV is currently 7.5 years for a site roughly on the same latitude as Moscow and above Newfoundland.
This is just one small system (0.5% of UK consumption) and I'm confident it's not perfect but it's a refreshing change from armchair experts stating that burning coal is the only way possible.
* Wind turbines initially installed with 40MW link to grid (capped by local grid infrastructure)
* PV installed - system generates more than the cap during summer/midday (wasted potential) and falls below it at mornings & evenings, unless windy
* Battery storage to shift some excess midday generation to several hours morning/evening to flatten supply curve
* Additional excess wind & PV generation used to produce hydrogen to power fleet of converted trucks for local authority (refuse collection etc)
* Kerbside collections of food waste used to produce biogas which is burnt in reciprocating generators to provide power during dark/low wind times
* Increase in installed PV (approx. 100MW) and power-hungry businesses invited to locate on site to ensure constant supply of mostly green power with multiple backups allows increased generation bypassing the grid connection cap.
The system is an entirely private venture operated for the purpose of profit and receives absolutely no subsidies for the power it exports to grid. Payback for the PV is currently 7.5 years for a site roughly on the same latitude as Moscow and above Newfoundland.
This is just one small system (0.5% of UK consumption) and I'm confident it's not perfect but it's a refreshing change from armchair experts stating that burning coal is the only way possible.
