Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[cricketo]

Which means that those 600 panels a day ( 120-150,000 per year) represents over 10% of those installed ! :wink:

Have you trashed your panels yet ? They're probably getting old and worthless. Well, from the earlier conversation it seemed they were worthless to begin with. Time to take them to a landfill!

 

[billvon]

Yes, i watched the video....
...infact i watched the whole 1 hr documentary !..( and they did not say they were salvaging the glass !)

Nor did they say they were putting the glass in the landfill. Looks like you saw what you wanted to see.

Which means that those 600 panels a day ( 120-150,000 per year) represents over 10% of those installed ! :wink:

Assuming it went on all year. I doubt it went on more than a week.

More likely:

1) A solar installation wanted to increase generation, and realized that new panels were 50% more efficient and 4x cheaper. And so they got rid of the old ones.

-or-

2) A developer bought a solar farm and turned it into a casino.

In either case, rather than reselling them as used (the smart thing to do) the foreman said "I don't care! Just call a recycler and get them out of here NOW. I have no place to store them." And so they went to the recycler - and the recycler only knows how to do one thing, which is recycle their useful components and throw out the rest. And they did that for a week and moved on to their next project.

I know, that doesn't have the politically correct "spin" so you're never going to believe it. Ah well; believe what you like.

 

[Hillhater]

Glass recycling in australia...it is un economical , so it doesnt happen !
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-07/recycling-companies-forced-to-stockpile-glass-industry-crisis/8778088

600 /day was all they can deal with...there are many others not processed there (or processed at all ?) ,,in other waste facilities.
..so i think we can assume its a continuous operation..and that the 600/day is a MINIMUM figure.

How can new panels be 4 times cheaper than existing panels !??
In most places, a solar farm IS a Casino...thanks to subsidies , carbon credits, and preferential supply contracts,...likely even more profitable !!

 

[cricketo]

Glass recycling in australia...it is un economical , so it doesnt happen !

Obviously that's the fault of the solar panels! Damn renewables!

 

[jonescg]

Glass recycling is another example where once it's traded on the open market as a commodity, its value plummets and nobody cares about it. At least you can add it to cement / road base / artificial reefs and it doesn't have any further ill effect on the environment. Or you can re-cycle it, but it's not worth it because fresh glass is so cheap. They would do well to stockpile all the silicon wafers from unwanted PV panels so they can be reliably re-purified. It's not the silicon they want, its the gallium and other doping agents.

 

[billvon]

600 /day was all they can deal with...there are many others not processed there (or processed at all ?) ,,in other waste facilities.
..so i think we can assume its a continuous operation..

Translation - you WANT to believe that it is a continuous operation!!!!

How can new panels be 4 times cheaper than existing panels !??

If Amy buys panels for $1.56 a watt in 2009, and Betty buys panels or $0.39 a watt in 2019 - how much cheaper are Betty's panels than Amy's? Extra credit if you can figure out how much a 295 watt panel cost Betty!

In most places, a solar farm IS a Casino...thanks to subsidies , carbon credits, and preferential supply contracts,...likely even more profitable !!

So they are so profitable they would never . . . tear one down?

You're making even less sense than usual.

 

[cricketo]

You're making even less sense than usual.

You mean he isn't even funny anymore ?

 

[Hillhater]

600 /day was all they can deal with...there are many others not processed there (or processed at all ?) ,,in other waste facilities.
..so i think we can assume its a continuous operation..

Translation - you WANT to believe that it is a continuous operation!!!!

Im listening to the facts...
You are NOT WANTING to accept it is happening and denying the FACTS !

How can new panels be 4 times cheaper than existing panels !??

If Amy buys panels for $1.56 a watt in 2009, and Betty buys panels or $0.39 a watt in 2019 - how much cheaper are Betty's panels than Amy's? Extra credit if you can figure out how much a 295 watt panel cost Betty!

But you were suggesting Amy should dump her still functioning panels, and replace them with new ones...
Effectively making her panels cost $1.95/watt ! ..Why would she do that ?
Betty was never even playing this game.!

In most places, a solar farm IS a Casino...thanks to subsidies , carbon credits, and preferential supply contracts,...likely even more profitable !!

So they are so profitable they would never . . . tear one down?

Unlikely to do that within 10 yrs ...or Maybe you can give an example ?
But most likely those panels are from rooftop solar as that is where the majority of PV is in Australia.

 

[cricketo]

You are NOT WANTING to accept it is happening and denying the FACTS !

Your facts are better than ours! You win the interwebz!

 

[billvon]

Im listening to the facts...

No, you are listening to a denier video and then imagining it says what you want it to.

But you were suggesting Amy should dump her still functioning panels, and replace them with new ones...
Effectively making her panels cost $1.95/watt ! ..Why would she do that ?

Because the new panels are also more efficient, so she can get 25% more power than she did before. Which, over the course of the next 10 years, may well make good economic sense.

More MWHR = more money for Betty.

Unlikely to do that within 10 yrs ...or Maybe you can give an example ?

You are once again arguing against yourself.

Meanwhile, from Reuters:
===============================
Australia clears way for massive hydropower expansion

FEBRUARY 25, 2019

MELBOURNE (Reuters) - Australia’s conservative government approved A$1.38 billion ($989.46 million) for a huge expansion of the state-owned power generator Snowy Hydro to back up wind and solar power, ahead of an election in which climate and energy policy will be hot-button issues.
================================

Betty's energy will be in even more demand, once they can use the Snowy Hydro reservoir as storage.

 

[Hillhater]

No, you are listening to a denier video and then imagining it says what you want it to.

.. FYI..that video..part of a TV documentary..was produced by the ABC, one of the most extreeme leftist , pro RE, media organisations in the world.
You still believe the recycling guy was an actor in a hi-vis vest ?
(Sounds like desperate denial to me !)

But you were suggesting Amy should dump her still functioning panels, and replace them with new ones...Effectively making her panels cost $1.95/watt ! ..Why would she do that ?

Because the new panels are also more efficient, so she can get 25% more power than she did before. Which, over the course of the next 10 years, may well make good economic sense.

So, now you are proposing it is economically sensible to scrap PV panels after 8-9 years ?..
Why then do you not believe that may be what is happening in the video ?
......That really is arguing against your original BS statement. :lol:

 

[cricketo]

part of a TV documentary..was produced by the ABC

What's the name of the documentary ? I'm now curious to see the whole thing. My Google-fu failed to find it.

On related topic :

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-solar-recycling/europes-first-solar-panel-recycling-plant-opens-in-france-idUSKBN1JL28Z

 

[Punx0r]

Excellent to see the loop being closed for PV. Once you start using a lot of a product you need an effective system to recover and recycle the waste and that's been missing so far (same for li-ion batteries). Economies of scale usually mean it's economically viable at some point.

 

[TheBeastie]

In reference to the core of the solar panel being recycled rather than just its aluminium frames, https://youtu.be/0L_lzUhitx8
Fact is very little is now recycled in Australia in general due to ever increasing energy costs.
We used to recycle most of our glass, plastic and metals but it became completely unviable once the green low co2 policies in energy took over.

So most "recyclables" like glass get collected as "if" there were being recycled and just get dumped somewhere, this is because China used to take most of it via ship for real recycling because they have strict cheap energy policies in their country, but they have decided they don't want to be the worlds dumping grounds anymore.
This is a great video that goes over all of it, you can see the huge piles of glass in the video and just dumping it in a standard landfill.
https://youtu.be/V-kfxnhFPyI?t=45

This is all the equivalent of what happens in a 3rd world low IQ state full of chaos, where dumb people have literally taken over and are running things in dumber and dumber ways until it all just falls apart completely like Haiti or Zimbabwe.

And remember this is the most accurate scientific facts we have on climate change, almost no change other than the very long term standard of what's been happening for the last few hundred years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA5sGtj7QKQ

[youtube]fA5sGtj7QKQ[/youtube]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*ADD*
News just came out that the super bird barbecuing Solar Thermal Project in South Australia has been dumped due to lack of funding.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-05/solar-thermal-plant-will-not-go-ahead-in-port-augusta/10973948

This project was just pure fraud to begin with, for 15MW average output power you can buy a 15MW diesel generator for $1million, which is 1,000 times cheaper than the original Crescent Dunes solar thermal project which cost just under $1billion USD to build.
It's all just caused by broadcast TV/radio brainwashing ideology than simple logical math. Broadcast media must die, too much power, the internet is a million times better.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=89002&p=1448417#p1448417
Here is my detailed post on it all, I actually half wanted to see this project built to help brute force the reality of how dumb these projects are.
We have saved a lot of money and a lot of birds being barbecued mid-flight via sun death ray.

 

[cricketo]

And remember this is the most accurate scientific facts we have on climate change, almost no change other than the very long term standard of what's been happening for the last few hundred years.

Hold on, I will find some video on Comedy Central to debunk your Fox News one.

 

[billvon]

This is all the equivalent of what happens in a 3rd world low IQ state full of chaos, where dumb people have literally taken over and are running things in dumber and dumber ways until it all just falls apart completely like Haiti or Zimbabwe.

You have just perfectly described the state of climate change denial here in the US. Today's claim by Trump, climate change denier extraordinaire - windmill noise causes cancer. This from the guy who also claims that climate change is a Chinese hoax, that climate science is fake science, and that cold days prove that "global waming" is a hoax.

And the sad thing is - there are idiots who believe him. No wonder he has said that he loves the poorly educated.

 

[cricketo]

This from the guy who also claims that climate change is a Chinese hoax, that climate science is fake science, and that cold days prove that "global waming" is a hoax.

Note that CATO Institute guy in the Fox video above doesn't claim it to be a hoax, but he claims it to be not as bad as most governments proclaim it to be. He is advocating for using Russian computer model, which demonstrates that skies actually aren't falling.

Now if we forget for a second that the video is from Fox, the thing to remember that regardless of his scientific credentials, his association with CATO Institute makes him highly suspect of political corruption. I like a lot of the work CATO Institute is doing when it comes to US Constitution, but they also promote general ideas of Libertarianism which favor free market and restrictions on government intervention - so any government attempts of establishing climate policies run afoul of CATO ideals.

Then to add to that, reliance on Russians... Russia is probably the most corrupt civilized country of the world. They are heavily reliant on fossil fuels, in fact most of their economy is subsidized through oil sales, which is controlled by the government. There is no snowball in hell chance any objective climate research can come from there if it puts any doubt on their fossil fuel practices.

 

[jimw1960]

Note that CATO Institute guy in the Fox video above doesn't claim it to be a hoax, but he claims it to be not as bad as most governments proclaim it to be. He is advocating for using Russian computer model, which demonstrates that skies actually aren't falling.

That so-called Russian model is just one of 18 models used to support the IPCC's AR5 Climate assessment. He cherry picked that model because it showed the least future warming and, at the time in 2015, it matched what was perceived as a slower rate of warming from 1998 (a cherry picked starting point) through 2014. Since then, global average temperatures spiked up, with 2015 through 2018 being the 4 hottest years on record by a significant amount. So, the slower rate of warming no longer exists. IPCC is currently working on AR6, which should be published in 2022. You can expect to see the "Russian model" recalibrated and updated to match these observations. Most of the other 17 models already match the 2015 through 2018 temperature data.

 

[Hillhater]

News just came out that the super bird barbecuing Solar Thermal Project in South Australia has been dumped due to lack of funding.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-05/solar-thermal-plant-will-not-go-ahead-in-port-augusta/10973948

Its incredibly disapointing that took this long..and then a foreign financial decision...to conclude how dumb this project proposal was. I would have hoped that plain old Aussie common sense would have seen through the weakness of Thermal Solar technology much sooner than this.
I guess any sensible technical input was shut out by political and financial speculation until it came to the crunch.

 

[Cephalotus]

In EU solar panels are covered by WEEE2, so taking them back with no cost panalty and recycling is mandatory.

For Germany: http://www.pvcycle.de/press/breakthrough-in-pv-module-recycling-2/

 

[Punx0r]

 

[Hillhater]

For Germany: http://www.pvcycle.de/press/breakthrough-in-pv-module-recycling-2/

..... PV module recycling allows the recovery of various raw materials and helps conserve natural resources. Today, glass, aluminum, copper, plastics from the cables and junction box, certain semiconductors as well as silver can be recycled. Other materials such as EVA plastics go into energy recovery.

..im guessing that last sentence means “incineration”..?

 

[Punx0r]

No, "energy recovery" i.e. burnt as fuel. Incineration is burning for disposal.

Trust you to criticise a process that recycles an impressive 96% of the material in a complex product :thumbdown:

 

[Cephalotus]

Trust you to criticise a process that recycles an impressive 96% of the material in a complex product :thumbdown:

Assuming a 300W solar modul weights 20kg. 4% of that is 0.8kg.

During its lifetime that solar modul will be able to produce around 10.000 kWh.

So today we end with burning 0.8kg of "plastic" for generating 10.000kWh of solar electricity.

Of course some people still argue that it is wiser to burn 2.500kg of fossil fuels to generate 10.000kWh of electricity.

 

[Hillhater]

You are wrongly assuming that 4% is the plastic content.....but it isnt !, there is much more plastic in a panel than that,....most of that 4% is glass losses
Once the glass and Al frame have been removed, most of what remains is plastic with small quantities od Silicon and trace metals.....all of that is incinerated as part of the recycling process ..there is no external energy recovery, infact considerable extra energy input is required for the thermal processing.
The majority of the 96% recovery is glass ( 15kg/panel) ..which nobody seems to want currently !

Silicon Based Solar Panel Recycling
The recycling process of silicon-based PV panels starts with disassembling the actual product to separate aluminium and glass parts. Almost all (95%) of the glass can be reused, while all external metal parts are used for re-molding cell frames. The remainder materials are treated at 500°C in a thermal processing unit in order to ease up the binding between the cell elements. Due to the extreme heat, the encapsulating plastic evaporates, leaving the silicon cells ready to be further processed. The supporting technology ensures that not even this plastic is wasted, therefore it is reused as a heat source for further thermal processing.