Wirefly: Freeride/Commuter Project

[standfast]

Hey SF,

Amazing job so far.. you definitely have some buildin skilz 8) I'd recommend the Adaptto controller / BMS
for your build here. Check out the thread under "Market- new stuff for sale", if unfamiliar with the kit.
It's a real nice complete and powerful set-up that pairs especially well with the 4S hard packs your employing.
The Adaptto's come in 2 flavors Mini and Max. I think you would be fine with the mini (what I'm planning on using
with my alternative big block) but a Max could really make it fly... for a while anyway :lol: The set-up handles all
of the monitoring and only requires a simple power supply of varying (relatively low) voltages to work.
Heck keep the pack at 20AH and carry the simple charger (better yet buy 2... one for work) and keep that rig lighter.
The peace of mind of halftime charging can be priceless.

The guys at Adaptto and product availability can be spotty but be persistent... if you get invoiced, it's legit.
I think the units are worth the wait and a serious step above most options. Thinking if you act now, the build may
not have to wait... but then again you're awefully fast at this assembly game
Looking real Pro.. keep up the good work!

Kevin

Kevin,
I just read through that whole thread and it looks quite appealing except for their ability to deliver the product. I think I would want the Max-E as the Mini-E doesn't appear to pump out enough current. Mini-E specs only 3500w. I doesn't look like they have been able to even get the Max-E into production for about nearly 6 months. I might go ahead and wait until they have some in stock to splurge for one of those.

So for now I will try to figure out how to charge some other way.

 

[K-ray]

Sounds good my Man... If I ever get my build progressed to wheel spin, I'll report on the Mini's performance with this
motor. I too am waiting for some more availability and will most likely pop for a Max-E at that time. The product
is "very nice" ... it'll really compliment your ride.
Carry on!

Kevin

 

[standfast]

I agree. Appears to be the best out there with the major benefit being the built in BMS to simplify the charging system drastically and the onboard monitoring of all cells or cell P-groups. All the other gadgets are pretty sweet but those two features take it well above the rest for me.

 

[standfast]

Tacked on a mock head tube and the peg mounts. Rear shock came in today just in time to mock it up.

 

[made_in_the_alps_legacy]

thxs for sharing, it's beautiful, can't almost see the motor

 

[tylerwatts]

Hi standfast. Awesome build. The frame is excellent. Is the motor mounted only by the feet or is it somehow aligned through the swingarm pivot? My worry is that the pivot plates will deflect and snap the shaft or lock the rotor against the stator.

Also, did you calculate the rear shock geometry, rising rate and spring load? It looks very steep unless you only weigh as much as a 12yr old...

This bike is going to be awesome! Thanks for sharing.

 

[standfast]

Tyler, the motor is only mounted by the feet and the shaft is floating on center with the swingarm pivot. Regarding the suspension, its funny you mention that because I was looking at that last night and I was not 100% happy with the progression or the fact that I could have shortened the swingarm further to lessen the motion ratio and allow the shock more strength over the arm. I was going to use 19" MC wheels front and back but ended up using an 18" out back so now I have a little space there that could have been used to shorten things up. I also changed the shock to a 3" travel shock which through a wrench in things. The suspension is a rough guess but as for now anyway but it actually feels a little stiff just bouncing around on it since I started with a 550# spring, although I don't have the batteries in it yet. I thought of another way of building the swingarm that maybe more simple and lighter while I was doing this one so I am going to do a little designing on that to figure out the details. Although this swingarm already feels quite light as it is. I also have already started shaving away the frame tinkering with the head tube angle. I now have it settled around 67 degrees. My seat that I intended to use is a little long for the bike so I am taking a step back on that one to figure that one out. Oh the fun of building your own frame.

 

[tylerwatts]

It sounds like a great adventure, and the pace you are moving at makes it exciting! If it feels ok then it should be fine. How much sag do you get on the shock just with your weight on the frame? That is a good indicator of the suspension geometry working well or not. I look forward to more photos and progress. Thanks for the clear and helpful reply. Your build really is inspirational.

 

[standfast]

It sags about 1/2" of the 3" of shock stroke with my weight on it. The battery pack is going to add another 21lbs (1440wh) which is what I am starting with or 32lbs (2160wh) plus about another 5 or so lbs for everything else that is not on like the seat and an aluminum seat subframe which I have yet to build. Plus the controller and battery. I still may need to back off to a 500# spring. We'll see.

 

[tylerwatts]

I'd estimate with that sag and weight on the way it is fine. I look forward to seeing the progress.

 

[rodgah]

wow, looks great.

note on the suspension, don't copy mx bike suspension as the drivetrain creates extra spring rate under acceleration......ie its purposely designed to be as supple as possible but under acceleration (open throttle on a hard landing) brutally solid. Since your motor is concentric with the swing arm you are not going to have this advantage so it should be firmer and possibly more non linear to counteract bottoming the shock.

Are the swing arm bearings actually running on the motors shaft? its hard to tell from the pictures

Cheers

 

[standfast]

Good insight rogdah. The swing arm is not pivoting on the motor shaft just the tabs next to it.

 

[adriftatsea]

Fantastic build! Any updates?

I came across this build searching the archives for beefy wheel hubs for mid drives.

 

[standfast]

I am back working on it again. I got slowed up because of some other projects and I broke my back. I hope to do some test rides soon. I am building up the battery pack which is slow right now because I have to research everything because I don't know much about it since it is my first build.

 

[CVillalobos]

Having the motor shaft set in-line with the swing arm pivot is genius! That idea solves so many problems with the build I was thinking of doing. Thanks for sharing!

CV

 

[standfast]

I wired up the motor and controller and bench tested it out. All seems to be working well. Got the seat subframe built out of aluminum and powder coated it. I have plenty of room to mount the controller in the frame but I figured it will like a little more airflow so I stuck it under the seat. Finished a bunch of detail work on the frame and coated it as well. Now it's on to final assembly and chasing down all the little bits and pieces that I need. I am going to make a bash plate for the motor on the bottom and frame cover plates tomorrow. Getting closer!

 

[standfast]

Nearing completion. I have a handful of little details to sort out like the cover panels, lights, and a few wiring bits. I have put about 40 miles or so on it and it's a lot of fun! Much more torque than I was expecting. For a second I was questioning the larger moto tire and was wondering if I should have used bicycle stuff. Now I am glad I didn't because that control of the bigger tire is valuable because most of the terrain I will be riding is off-road and sometimes sandy. That gets a little sketchy on a bike tire when you are going fast! The bike weighs in at 98lbs with the current 15AH 20S pack thats in it. The moto tires are quite heavy in comparison to a bicycle tire but I sure glad I have them now. I have no doubts about washing the front end when turning in on the dirt trails.

Charging setup is pretty simple. Just plug in the one 26 pin connector and I have a view of all the cells through 3 celllogs and individual cell monitoring from the Bestek BMS and charging leads take up 2 each of the 7.5A rated pins which is over 4X the rated amps of the charger I am currently using which is 3.5A.

Someone asked about how I adapted my sprocket to the motor. I am using high strength #35 chain because it is so readily available here in the US. I used a 13T sprocket from Mcmaster-Carr part number 2500T15 with a 5/8" keyed bore. I took apart the motor and turned the second shoulder down to 5/8" and milled a 3/16" keyway into it. It was very simple and now I have $15 sprocket with hardened teeth that I can get in a single day (I love MCM!) in any tooth count I want.

 

[nutnspecial]

Wow, I love your build- I would be so curious of how it handles. I know my lighter bike suspension and tires/wheels wouldn't compare. From doing plenty of mx'ing in the past, I can say my bike has stayed in the bike realm in terms of riding. A more mx ride with only 30 more lbs would be so worth the build!
I will be so looking forward to see how you like it!

Two questions off-the-bat:
On the shaft mod, I am assuming the only way to achieve it is a mill? What would be a reasonable $ to pay for turning and keying? I'm thinking 100/ for an hour job?
I almost tried myself, but in the end just tacked the sprocket to it till some later date lol.

Have you gotten into any motor cooling yet? Maybe I should turn my amps down (70/160) but I'm heatin it up fairly quick when running it like a nut.
Oil cool. Fan on shaft. Seperate forced air. Venting. Larger heatsink. Lots of possibilites, but all kindof of different directions.

 

[standfast]

It has a MX feel to it but is still very nimble like a bike. I backed off some of the fork rake that I had in the initial design to make it better suited for tight technical riding. I didn't care to go 50+ MPH on it. Most of the trails I want to do will keep me closer to 30mph max maybe a hair more. Right now I think it will go a little over 40mph. That said, I may want to gear it a little deeper because it goes faster than I need it to right now.

$100 is a reasonable price for modifying the shaft. It is a lathe/mill job but the setups are easy. It took less than an hour to do.

I don't know how much a heat problem I really have with the motor. I don't have a temp gauge on it yet. I have it running 100% of the amps that my Kelly controller will do which I believe is 130A boost for 10 seconds and 55A continuous. I haven't been babying it at all. The motor gets warm but not to where I can't hold my hand on it without pulling away. So I would guess the external case is around 140F after repeated low speed wheelie attempts for 5 minutes. When just trail riding the motor stays much cooler than that. Might be because of the air flow from where I have it mounted. The knobby tires have a fanning effect when I spun it up on the stand. For now I am just going to continue running it until it becomes a problem I guess. How hot does yours get nut?

 

[nutnspecial]

No doubt your bike is way more nimble than even an 80cc mx, and probably pretty close in handling the heavy stuff at the speeds you are running, unlike mine.
I *can* run from 30-40, but that speed exceeds safe handling in rougher terrain for me. I feel most comfortable offroad with the controller limiting speed to about 30mph. And that excludes any real 'air time'- never got the hang of that stuff.
I find I can burn an ah in a few minutes and the motor gets noticably warm. I'd guess about 140 as well. By the time it would be too hot to touch I'm guessing damage might be occuring. Problem is I don't know what it would take to overheat it and don't wanna find out the hard way lol. A thermister is something that's not a bad idea.
The slow speed/high draw stuff not only doesn't have as much natural air cooling, but when geared for 40mph, repeated highdraws under 20mph is gonna be making alot more heat too.
It's way more than adequate for trail riding, but I'm still thinking of improvement for really long climbs and slowspeed trials stuff. Either active cooling or reducing top speed for greater efficiency. I'm really curious of how evolution's venting worked out.

Best,
Jay

Ps wow 130a for 10sec should take you to full speed r e a l l y quick! What phase amps? I'm planning to attempt timing myself from 0- 30/40mph for shts and giggles. It feels like 2.5/4.5 seconds on the 70a max draw, but that's gotta be liberal lol. Edit, just tried counting and I think it's 3sec from 5-30. I think the 5v lipo sag @80v is hurting though. 5.8ah 25/30c doesn't like 16-17c draws very much :x yet another reason to drop speed and amps for my build.

 

[litespeed]

What a great build and a great shop. I miss the off road stuff. I had a Honda Odyssey, Honda Pilot and a Drakart Formula Cross and Polaris RZR-S.....the good old days!

Tom

 

[standfast]

I installed a CA on the bike and got a few more details done. Next up is some lights and switches for them. I also have to integrate a reed switch into my brake lever for brake light and maybe regen. I have been riding the bike quite a bit. I just passed 100 miles on it. Most of it is offroad riding averaging around 20mph on some curvy trails. I ride on a dirt trail (below) to work for about 5-6 miles and do another 2-3 on paved roads. I can't get enough of it. So much fun going to and coming from work now. Charging system seems to be working well and couldn't be easier to hook up. Just one plug and turn it on. Balance, bulk, check each cell on celllogs, whatever is required. Simple and easy. My normal round trip is about 15 miles and I go from about 83.5V to about 77V so recharging for the next day is much quicker than I anticipated because I don't take the battery as deep as I thought I would. Only takes 1.5-2hours.

 

[nutnspecial]

Hi brother, that's really looking great- I love the charge/balance port!
Custom bracket for the ca I assume?

I am attempted a more hd ride, and have an 888rc to use. Really like the solidness of the barmount and fork, plus the thru axle. Have to dig up some info on it, I'm wondering how low the stanctions can be set for ride height w/o bottoming out.
Also, what rake and w/base did you settle on for the bike?

I read up on greentime controllers, and from what I understand their high amp 'burst' setting is similar to phase amp setting on infineon. Can you/have you tried turning it up? You might really like the acceleration up towards 60/180?

 

[standfast]

I just used the bracket that the CA came with and opened the hole up a little bit to mount to the fork stem screw after I locked the fork triples down. Puts it in the perfect place for me.

There is marks on the fork that show you the minimum height. I have them basically at the maximum.

I settled on 69 degrees and 50.5" WB.

I believe I have the controller turned all the way up. I have seen a max of 80 battery amps on the CA. I think the controller is rated for 130A for 10 seconds but that is phase amps. I have the motor current at 100% and the battery current can only be set as high as 50%. I wonder what current others have seen with the kelly KBS? I am pretty sure I have it maxed out though.

 

[bzhwindtalker]

I have seen up to 170a peak battery side with this controller and motor