XCYC Pickup: love child of an ebike and an F-150

john61ct

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Dec 18, 2018
Messages
8,758
https://www.google.com/search?q=XCYC+Pickup&oq=XCYC+Pickup

Review: https://electrek.co/2019/09/11/xcyc-pickup-review-electric-bike-ford-f150/


Discuss.

_______
Part Two:

I would like help "crowd-source designing" and building something generally like this, but that can:

carry a 200lb load over a 2000m mountain pass in the rockies or alps, given a big enough Ah capacity bank of high-discharge rate batteries

and is suitable for rough cross country use, desert tracks, dirt/gravel roads and BLM / forestry trails


 
I love the concept, but that's $8300 canadian for 250w and 10ah @ 48v. (Before shipping or duty)

Up the power and capacity substantially, then knock 40-50% off the price and maybe we'll talk. (Also if they could base the front half on a semi recumbent, I think I might like that.)

For that kind of money I'd try to buy a haggard leaf and turn it into a ute.

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/ctd/d/burnaby-2012-nissan-leaf-electric-runs/6958618194.html (Roughly 2 grand less than that bike)

Edit:
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Kind of cool, but they don't go much into how effective the rear braking is (or if there is any). The specs say 203 mm rotors, but don't see where/how the rear rotor and caliper are mounted. I wouldn't want to rely only on that front brake if hauling a big load and travelling downhill. The dropper seatpost is an odd addition for a trike; not sure why they emphasize that in both the article and video. On the other hand, I don't have a trike, so maybe you have to change seat levels a lot.
 
Seems like it would be prone to tipping over on rough terrain. Some form of tilting or leaning suspension would be much better.
 
That actually looks well designed and useful, but the price is way too high and the electric specs are underwhelming at any price.
 
Good concept, but it's underpowered for sure. Plus those little wheels and long wheelbase are going to seriously limit it's offroad capabilities.
 
fechter said:
Seems like it would be prone to tipping over on rough terrain. Some form of tilting or leaning suspension would be much better.
Yes theirs is designed for smooth flats, why I need to upgrade the concept for rough.

But low enough speeds - say 10-12mph in the rough, could get away without tilting?
 
I just don't understand Euro ebike limits. 250 watts is ridiculously underpowered for an average person nevermind for a massive hauler. What am I missing? If you loaded that thing up with dirt like in their website pic I have serious doubts you'd make it up even a little hill. Is it supposed to be 100% flatopia riding or what?
 
john61ct said:
and is suitable for rough cross country use, desert tracks, dirt/gravel roads and BLM / forestry trails
At the least, you're gonna want much larger diameter rear wheels than that thing, preferably with fat wide tires, for that kind of terrain. You'll also want a much lower deck, because that is so high off the ground you'll end up at only a few MPH most of the time just so you don't tip while dodging road debris or holes, or making turns, etc.

Most likely, you're going to want motorcycle wheels and tires, as large a diameter as you can get, for the best ride quality you can get without full suspension, independent on each wheel.

For the larger wheels, youll either have to have a wider track, or a narrower cargo deck at least where the wheels are, and suspend the deck below the axles like my brother's Raine Trike and my best and biggest trailer.


I'd highly recommend good suspension for that kind of terrain, too, or you're gonna end up riding at walking speed or less so you don't bounce your load or brains out. ;)


As for a trike design that can haul heavy loads, there are lots of those, including my SB Cruiser and the Raine Trike I built for my brother. Either one of those designs could be modified for good suspension, though I'd use the suspended-deck Raine Trike design for the much larger wheels it can have, without having such a high deck. SB Cruiser uses smaller wheels to keep the deck lower since it's axles are below the deck, but it rides significantly worse than the Raine Trike over the same poorly maintained streets, even though the tires are much fatter.


There is also the CycleTruck that various companies, including UPS, are using. It's probably overkill for your hauling capability needs, but it might have the power to haul up the hills you're talking about. It doesn't have the suspension you need for the terrain you're needing to deal with, though. (nothing presently existing does, that can haul the cargo you need to).

john61ct said:
carry a 200lb load over a 2000m mountain pass in the rockies or alps, given a big enough Ah capacity bank of high-discharge rate batteries



I don't know how much power you'll need to haul up those mountains, without knowing the speeds at which you need to do it and the actual slopes. Probably at least several thousand watts, continuous. It's not much of a cargo load, but the trike itself will probably weigh at least twice the load, plus a rider....

That will determine how much battery you need, whcih I expect is going to be so much that it will be greater than your cargo load mass. A few dozen kWh, probably. (because the more mass you add, the more power and thus the more battery you need to move it uphill)


I think this is going to be a pretty expensive cargo trike.
 
Sounds like you want a side by side quad.

Not to discourage you, but you will find the trike has some limits. They don't make the off road trikes any more for real good reasons.

But your concept, with a very strong mid drive, can do a LOT. Dirt logging roads yes,, forest service trails built in 1935 for mules, no..

Suspension will help, even if its just old style wagon springs on the box part of the bike, so the axle and move some without lifting all the cargo.
 
Well, it does seem I need to scale my needs back a bit to get "realistic", at least for the first try prototype.

Might forget the trike idea completely, back to previous 2 wheel based off tandem frame, maybe 400# gross, less range required. . .
 
E-HP said:
The specs say 203 mm rotors, but don't see where/how the rear rotor and caliper are mounted.
If you look at the 1st video in the article, at around 1:00 it shows lower rear of the bike. Two rotors are clearly visible and at 1:05 you can see left caliper directly on top of rotor. Also it's visible that only left rear wheel is being driven. Looks like someone has cut off ~50mm right side axle.
 
They make some nice electric ATVs but they are quite large and very expensive. A cargo bike would be much more affordable.
 
My decision matrix looks about like this:

First - gotta ride one.
The most is learned from a ride.
Feel the torque
Feel the steering
Feel the braking
Feel the weight
Feel the geometry

I am a stickler for RWD and that boils down to uphill traction both on smooth surfaces as well as dirt. FWD will always result in major slip (which can be good in EXTREME hill climbing) but for most practical applications RWD is dominantly better for traction.

I am a stickler for good brakes. Disk at a minimum, hydraulic preferred. Drum brakes are garbage. V brakes and U brakes are garbage. In the light weight racing world. . . all the real players will ask you HOW FAST CAN YOU STOP THAT THING??? (never how fast will it go)

I am a stickler for large diameter wheels. I have ridden everything from a 16" up thru a 29" at 40mph thru variable terrain. The simple physics of a larger diameter wheel win out every time. Some folks get it in their head that a 20" wheel can provide more torque. . . that is only true in the absence of a properly geared setup. A 26" wheel with a low KV motor, high voltage, and high current can produce WAY MORE TORQUE than anybody really needs. ... Except for the rare case where you are stall-torquing heavy loads... in that rare case... at slow speed... I would accept smaller and smaller wheels. ... But - for anything moving over 20mph... bigger is better for wheels.

I swear by good tires. Lately a ton of bikes have been selling cheap ... say... $2500 for a turn key ebike. They are cutting cost on things like tires and it makes for a very poor user experience. The only thing between your skin and the road is a tiny patch of rubber. You want the toughest, stickiest, baddest-ass piece of rubber you can get. GOOD TIRES... like... $50 each. Worth every penny when you are leaned over at 35MPH and hit some gravel. Bike slips out, then catches, and you are back up. ... For these trikes... probably does not matter... but the giant "phat tires" - although they look cool - take up a ton of energy. Just go pedal one. They are pigs. ... If they are expensive, cool... if they are cheap, they will likely roll over on you in hard turns leaving you with a disconnected sense. If at any time you feel your tires roll on the rim, the next thing you are going to feel is excruciating pain. ... I keep my tires pumped up really hard. . . but this makes for a rough ride. Some go with springy tires to try and make up for suspension... that is only good for tootling around.

I swear by Full Suspension front and rear. Pump the tires up to 65PSI. Get big, ratty, gnarly, downhill tires. Get a lot of suspension, like 7" front and rear... and this will help you survive mistakes. Ride off a curb and not even feel it. Ride UP a curb and not crash. You need suspension on a motor vehicle. YEs... Yes... I know these are not motor vehicles... but I build them sometimes and I can tell you that hitting a bump at 45mph with no springs results in... eh... ... "a requirement to be an advanced rider". If you do not wish to be an advanced rider then either go very slow or go with a forgiving setup.

Width...
Those bikes look wide. There is no room for them on a sidewalk, they will be tippy coming on and off of sidewalk.... There is already not enough room in the bike lane. I have ridden a thousand miles on a Trike and it is a death race. You either take a lane or you get pinched. If I had to pull a load I would do it with a single wheel trailer. The type you pull behind the bike. If I were going to run a trike I would make sure it goes at least 35MPH and I would TAKE LANES. In this case I would want a Tadpole configuration because ... eh... you ever go 35MPH on a trike? ...

Braking
You want a bunch of rubber in the front. Just like rear traction gets you up a hill, front traction gets you stopped. I brake so hard that I unicycle up - daily. This is how to survive... hit the brakes so hard that you literally are on nothing but the front patch. Yes... I grab front and rear... but in an emergency I tip up. ... For this reason, if you are pulling 800lbs... and all you have is a single front tire with all the weight rear loaded... you may end up washing out the front end. No amount of rear braking will make up for the lack of front braking. Even if the rear is loaded, the potential to lock them up and slide is just too high, especially on gravel or sandy surfaces. ... so... Rubber in the front (one of many reasons to go Tadpole over standard trike if you want to be on 3 wheels in a comfy chair)

Stance
I like to sit or lay down. Anything with a standard seat... that you SIT ON... is going to leave you with a sore ass in less than 10 miles. Real cyclists DO NOT sit on the seat!!! They are standing on the pedals and using the seat for stability. You will find that only some small percentage of their weight is on the seat. Remember this... because if you are looking at those trikes you are probably looking to sit. If you are looking to sit then sit in a bucket, not on a saddle.

Torque
Make sure you have gobs of it and double the battery to use it. Pulling a load hogs power super bad. You just end up in an inefficient part of the curve with all the stopping and go-ing and accelerating. Regen does not make up for this. So... in a cargo application... I want to see 3X the standard battery pack. Above I see a pack on the frame (glanced). I want to see a load of batteries under the box.

Parking
Where are you going to park the damn thing?
This is always a problem with a Trike. Cant sneak it into all the places you can sneak a bike.

TIME

-methods
 
Any time.

I am not in the ethos anymore so the best I can do is vomit up the culmination of years of testing.
That is the truth of my testing.
Bikes, Trikes, you name it.

I am 6'2 and about 185lbs
I started with no bike experience to speak of
I built apx 40 bikes
I rode until my ass was numb

Never got hurt. . . until I started with the Skate Boards. It was the small wheel diameter that took me out.

-methods
 
XCYC Pickup electric cargo bike

video review, also by Micah @electrek

https://youtu.be/_W_YWJ0uabk

this is a repeat link to the full text version
https://electrek.co/2019/09/11/xcyc-pickup-review-electric-bike-ford-f150/
 
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