Based on some of the failure modes posted for their controllers, they ignore a number of mechanical issues, and/or have less than perfect QC. :/
Yamaha YZ450F
- Thread starter j bjork
- Start date
Been making the wiring, and needed a little electronics:
There is a relay for the high voltage Vin on the controller and dc dc converter, also a fuse for the dc dc and ntc inrush limiter to the vin. (It burnt the relay on the other bike if I didn't have it)
There is also a filtering cap and a pull up resistor for the reverse input, also lesson learnt from the other bike
It seems that Hackey has a script for a 3speed switch that uses the sin cos inputs, pull high to activate.
So I hope I can get that script this time (I was supposed to get it years ago for the other bike) and I added pull down resistors for those inputs that might be useful..
The box for the electronics and on/off switch, also on/off button for the bms..
Seems like a good idea to turn off that as soon as I am not riding, now when I don't have a contactor
It should be hard to break those I hope
It is getting close now
I need 2 connectors to finish the wiring at the handlebars.
Then there is the scary part, connect the power to the controller, and hope it doesn't explode
There is a relay for the high voltage Vin on the controller and dc dc converter, also a fuse for the dc dc and ntc inrush limiter to the vin. (It burnt the relay on the other bike if I didn't have it)
There is also a filtering cap and a pull up resistor for the reverse input, also lesson learnt from the other bike
It seems that Hackey has a script for a 3speed switch that uses the sin cos inputs, pull high to activate.
So I hope I can get that script this time (I was supposed to get it years ago for the other bike) and I added pull down resistors for those inputs that might be useful..
The box for the electronics and on/off switch, also on/off button for the bms..
Seems like a good idea to turn off that as soon as I am not riding, now when I don't have a contactor
It should be hard to break those I hope
It is getting close now
I need 2 connectors to finish the wiring at the handlebars.
Then there is the scary part, connect the power to the controller, and hope it doesn't explode
Hey! That's a new LH brake pump! Specs please, piston diameter and where to get it. I need to do something about my rear brake, it's almost nonexistent..
It's a formula brake pump and hose for stark varg. I don't know specs, I just took a chance thinking it is probably close to what I want.
I planned to get a brembo, but I got this one for cheap from an owner that changed to brembo.
Those are supposed to be better, but as I rarely use the mechanical rear brake it is probably good enough for me.
I planned to get a brembo, but I got this one for cheap from an owner that changed to brembo.
Those are supposed to be better, but as I rarely use the mechanical rear brake it is probably good enough for me.
I don't have an obvious place to put the connectors on this bike, but I decided this had to be it:
I had some stiff alu that I made a bracket of.
Time to finish the bike with handguards and stuff:
I went for these expensive cycra this time.
They sure are another level than the ones I have used before
I hope they will be hard to bend and break..
I have also bought these aliexpress ones:
They sure aren't the same, I thought they might come from the same factory..
They seem very nice anyway though, could be an alternative to cheaper ones at least.
I bought the cycras when they were on sale, and these were maybe half the sale price..
I had some stiff alu that I made a bracket of.
Time to finish the bike with handguards and stuff:
I went for these expensive cycra this time.
They sure are another level than the ones I have used before
I hope they will be hard to bend and break..
I have also bought these aliexpress ones:
They sure aren't the same, I thought they might come from the same factory..
They seem very nice anyway though, could be an alternative to cheaper ones at least.
I bought the cycras when they were on sale, and these were maybe half the sale price..
I made a mistake in the wiring and connected the horn to the light switch instead of the horn button.
When I turned on the bike the horn was constantly on
That revealed another problem, when there was a load on the 12v circuit when it turned on the relay got welded so I could not turn off the bike.
I probably wont turn on the bike with the horn on again, but it is very possible that I will turn on with lights on.
I changed the relay and added a ntc resistor to that line too. I don't know if it is the right way, but it seems to work so far
I got connection:
The display looks promising:
I can change profiles on the buttons, no more need to connect with the phone and pushing on the screen
Now I don't have any connection to the controller though, I think I need 6.05 firmware first.
Testing stuff, the water pump doesn't work. Alright, there are two aux outputs. In the vesc tool you seem to only control the one that I didn't connect to. Moving wires, it still doesn't work. Everything seems ok, so I suppose it is the relay that doesn't turn on.
I had a 24v relay that I borrowed from the ventilation, but it turned on when I tried it on a 12v battery. I now found a 12v relay in the heating system I could borrow..
It was not the same of course:
The one to the right is the 12v.
It also turns out that it doesn't fit in the hole spacing in the pcb, so I have to drill new holes
Well, now I have a working water pump at least
Now it is time to take everything apart and put extra grease in all the bearings:
Finished up the fastener for the battery cover too:
When I turned on the bike the horn was constantly on
That revealed another problem, when there was a load on the 12v circuit when it turned on the relay got welded so I could not turn off the bike.
I probably wont turn on the bike with the horn on again, but it is very possible that I will turn on with lights on.
I changed the relay and added a ntc resistor to that line too. I don't know if it is the right way, but it seems to work so far
I got connection:
The display looks promising:
I can change profiles on the buttons, no more need to connect with the phone and pushing on the screen
Now I don't have any connection to the controller though, I think I need 6.05 firmware first.
Testing stuff, the water pump doesn't work. Alright, there are two aux outputs. In the vesc tool you seem to only control the one that I didn't connect to. Moving wires, it still doesn't work. Everything seems ok, so I suppose it is the relay that doesn't turn on.
I had a 24v relay that I borrowed from the ventilation, but it turned on when I tried it on a 12v battery. I now found a 12v relay in the heating system I could borrow..
It was not the same of course:
The one to the right is the 12v.
It also turns out that it doesn't fit in the hole spacing in the pcb, so I have to drill new holes
Well, now I have a working water pump at least
Now it is time to take everything apart and put extra grease in all the bearings:
Finished up the fastener for the battery cover too:
If you don't use your rear disc brake do you simply rely on passive regen like engine braking on a 4t bike ? If so how much regen do you run ? Otherwise do you have a lever for regen braking ? A friend of mine did that on his Talaria and he loved it and was using it more than his normal brake.
Can the fuse fall out on heavy bumps?
I have a thumb throttle for regen, just like I have on the other bike.
I only use the mechanical rear brake to keep the bike stationary uphill or in hard enduro when going slow down steep downhill slopes and things like that. Well, on the other bike anyway. I don't think it will be different on this bike.
It seems very unlikely that the fuse would fall out, it is very light and held firmly in place. I think it takes a screwdriver or something to get it out.
I only use the mechanical rear brake to keep the bike stationary uphill or in hard enduro when going slow down steep downhill slopes and things like that. Well, on the other bike anyway. I don't think it will be different on this bike.
It seems very unlikely that the fuse would fall out, it is very light and held firmly in place. I think it takes a screwdriver or something to get it out.
I like to salvage 12v relays from scrap microwaves, they're not too big will still being sufficiently overpowered for all my e-motorcycle accessories
They are not expensive to buy, I just didn't have any and I haven't found anywhere locally to get them.
I will order some soon. And I don't have any scrap microwaves around unfortunately
I have car relays, but I wanted for pcb mount.
This is pretty much it I think:
Finished prototype wire protector:
Making one in tpu now, with another orientation on the print bed to avoid the ugly damage
I will order some soon. And I don't have any scrap microwaves around unfortunately
I have car relays, but I wanted for pcb mount.
This is pretty much it I think:
Finished prototype wire protector:
Making one in tpu now, with another orientation on the print bed to avoid the ugly damage
FWIW, a relay that's rated for more current than you'll ever draw from it *and* more voltage than you'll ever use it for, *should* gracefully handle the situation.
At first glance it looks like it is rated for 16A, but it seems like it is just for AC..
I managed to print the wire protector in tpu eventually:
The outside turned out alright, the inside not so much:
Most of it doesn't really matter, but the mounting surfaces could have been better
Anyway, with sleeves in the mounting holes and mounted on the bike it feels very stable.
I managed to print the wire protector in tpu eventually:
The outside turned out alright, the inside not so much:
Most of it doesn't really matter, but the mounting surfaces could have been better
Anyway, with sleeves in the mounting holes and mounted on the bike it feels very stable.
It's actually a specified as a DC current relay, according to that. However, the voltages for the contacts are specified as AC, which means they may not be far enough apart at break to actually break a high current DC flow since there's no zero crossing.
The contact break current is only 16A, and it's possible for a horn to draw more than that.
They list the coil voltage as 110VDC, at 28kohms; are you using the main pack voltage to turn it on?
Probably not the case (would likely see heat damage to the case or contacts) but if using only low voltage for the coil, maybe the coil is not fully pulling the contacts in so they're higher resistance and preheating up so that when you try to break the contact with the current flowing, the resulting arc is enough to weld the contacts together. I doubt this is what happened (but I have seen a relay fail from this type of event--it just left obvious signs of longterm overheating everywhere which is how I found the coil drive problem).
Wow, that thing turned out great! Nice work, it looks really clean and professional.
Personally, I also think it looks better now that you've used your radiator covers (since you actually have radiators now), compared to your other bike.
Always cool to keep following your project!
Personally, I also think it looks better now that you've used your radiator covers (since you actually have radiators now), compared to your other bike.
Always cool to keep following your project!
Amberwolf: Yes, I use pack voltage for the relay. It is the only voltage available before the controller and dc-dc converter is on.
It is controlling input for the controller and dc-dc, also full pack voltage, so the current should be a lot less. I think the fuse is 3A for the dc-dc. I am using the same relay on the other bike, that is where I learned to use the ntc resistor on the input to the controller..
Maybe I should have been more careful in choosing relays instead
Mikemx: Thanks
I'm not totally happy with the end of the radiator covers where they meet the battery cover, but I don't think I'll get it very much better if I don't make my own radiator covers.
It also bothers me a little to have radiators on the sides, things that sticks out easily brakes off
I think the other bike would look better if the battery would stick up less, more like this bike.
I got hold of Hackey to tune the bike, I decided to only test throttles turn the wheel by hand and get erpm, motor temp etc.
And let him do the setups that has higher risk of controller failure..
So far I have only tested a little on the street with 900pA. It is very peppy, it wheelies or wheel spin easy but runs out of steam rather early:
The peaks seem similar, 36kw and in this case 4700rpm (I think that was similar too)
I was expecting this motor to hold out to higher rpm, I think it has something like 80kv (need to check my notes).
But on the other hand the motor is smaller and closer to its max output, so max power ends up closer to half max rpm
Oh, well. Time will tell. I have fw to play with if necessary, and gearing. It is a good place to be to gear up
Bigger front an smaller rear gear is a good thing, if it is available and you have room for it that is.
It seems too nervous now anyway, so there is probably room to gear up without loosing too much "punch".
Killed my display though, I could have done without that
I couldn't make it work, didn't get any connection from the controller.
I connected vesc tool to the display with usb, seemed fine.
I then dropped the usb wire so it touched the bikes frame, that was very bad.
Sparks flew and the display went black.
I took it apart thinking I could probably see something, but no.
When measuring the inputs I realized that I had switched can high and low
Well, I just went and ordered a new one right away
It is controlling input for the controller and dc-dc, also full pack voltage, so the current should be a lot less. I think the fuse is 3A for the dc-dc. I am using the same relay on the other bike, that is where I learned to use the ntc resistor on the input to the controller..
Maybe I should have been more careful in choosing relays instead
Mikemx: Thanks
I'm not totally happy with the end of the radiator covers where they meet the battery cover, but I don't think I'll get it very much better if I don't make my own radiator covers.
It also bothers me a little to have radiators on the sides, things that sticks out easily brakes off
I think the other bike would look better if the battery would stick up less, more like this bike.
I got hold of Hackey to tune the bike, I decided to only test throttles turn the wheel by hand and get erpm, motor temp etc.
And let him do the setups that has higher risk of controller failure..
So far I have only tested a little on the street with 900pA. It is very peppy, it wheelies or wheel spin easy but runs out of steam rather early:
The peaks seem similar, 36kw and in this case 4700rpm (I think that was similar too)
I was expecting this motor to hold out to higher rpm, I think it has something like 80kv (need to check my notes).
But on the other hand the motor is smaller and closer to its max output, so max power ends up closer to half max rpm
Oh, well. Time will tell. I have fw to play with if necessary, and gearing. It is a good place to be to gear up
Bigger front an smaller rear gear is a good thing, if it is available and you have room for it that is.
It seems too nervous now anyway, so there is probably room to gear up without loosing too much "punch".
Killed my display though, I could have done without that
I couldn't make it work, didn't get any connection from the controller.
I connected vesc tool to the display with usb, seemed fine.
I then dropped the usb wire so it touched the bikes frame, that was very bad.
Sparks flew and the display went black.
I took it apart thinking I could probably see something, but no.
When measuring the inputs I realized that I had switched can high and low
Well, I just went and ordered a new one right away
Did a proper testdrive today on a small mx track. I have been trying to evaluate the battery to see what I should do about it.
I want to glue it together and ride the bike, but I don't think I can do that..
I knew about higher self discharge in cell group 14 and 30.
Here are 3 pictures after riding, first right after getting off the bike. Then some time later, and after some more time.
So you can see group 14 is weakest by far, then 7 and 30 equal, 9, 28, 20.
Later 14 is still low, 7 also. But most bounce back pretty good.
This is where I find it weird. This is charging where the bms turns off, and then after it has settled a little.
Sure, it is the same cell groups. But 7 is worse on charging, and it is not that the current are flowing and it has higher ir.
I have made a screen record during discharge, and 14 sags the most.
Here it is by the way. (Edit, that didn't want to show up. Oh well, not a big deal)
I want to glue it together and ride the bike, but I don't think I can do that..
I knew about higher self discharge in cell group 14 and 30.
Here are 3 pictures after riding, first right after getting off the bike. Then some time later, and after some more time.
So you can see group 14 is weakest by far, then 7 and 30 equal, 9, 28, 20.
Later 14 is still low, 7 also. But most bounce back pretty good.
This is where I find it weird. This is charging where the bms turns off, and then after it has settled a little.
Sure, it is the same cell groups. But 7 is worse on charging, and it is not that the current are flowing and it has higher ir.
I have made a screen record during discharge, and 14 sags the most.
Here it is by the way. (Edit, that didn't want to show up. Oh well, not a big deal)
I also logged pretty much of the riding. The results are a little surprising.
I felt it lacks "punch" compared to the other bike. Here you can casually hit full throttle (briefly) it's not a big deal.
On the other bike it still is.. You just don't do that without some planning ahead
Unfortunately I couldn't do any adjustments and see what happens, I have a special vesc tool 6.02 on my phone, and it seems I cant also have 6.05. It just wants to update the old one when I try to install the new one.
I cant change settings with the old, but I can log. I only had it set to 800pA
This is surprising, I have several peaks 35-41kw in the logs. I am back at maybe I need to go over the gearing a little as it seems to happen at rather low rpm. But there is another problem:
It gets hot.. This is the first log, when I had gotten used to it and was a little harder on the throttle it went up even faster.
Thing is, it was thermal limiting almost all the time I rode, probably at least an hour. Still the motor wasn't even warm on the outside. (radiators was more or less cold too)
It was set to start already at 85 degrees,-15% to allow full braking when warm, so already at 72 degrees.
Probably why it tapers off a lot over 70..
I think that if it is the water flow that is too bad, the motor would get warm on the outside.
It seems like the thermal passage between the windings and coolant is just not good enough.
Hackey also said it is a common problem. I asked if qs138 90h was better in that regard, but haven't got any answer.
It was a pretty hard test track though, a small mx track in a sand pit. Slightly wet sand everywhere
I felt it lacks "punch" compared to the other bike. Here you can casually hit full throttle (briefly) it's not a big deal.
On the other bike it still is.. You just don't do that without some planning ahead
Unfortunately I couldn't do any adjustments and see what happens, I have a special vesc tool 6.02 on my phone, and it seems I cant also have 6.05. It just wants to update the old one when I try to install the new one.
I cant change settings with the old, but I can log. I only had it set to 800pA
This is surprising, I have several peaks 35-41kw in the logs. I am back at maybe I need to go over the gearing a little as it seems to happen at rather low rpm. But there is another problem:
It gets hot.. This is the first log, when I had gotten used to it and was a little harder on the throttle it went up even faster.
Thing is, it was thermal limiting almost all the time I rode, probably at least an hour. Still the motor wasn't even warm on the outside. (radiators was more or less cold too)
It was set to start already at 85 degrees,-15% to allow full braking when warm, so already at 72 degrees.
Probably why it tapers off a lot over 70..
I think that if it is the water flow that is too bad, the motor would get warm on the outside.
It seems like the thermal passage between the windings and coolant is just not good enough.
Hackey also said it is a common problem. I asked if qs138 90h was better in that regard, but haven't got any answer.
It was a pretty hard test track though, a small mx track in a sand pit. Slightly wet sand everywhere
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I was at a slow, technical "rocks and roots" enduro track today.
I was going to log pretty much, but only got a part of the first lap.
Then it the phone wanted to pair again, and wanted the code that I didn't have with me
Running on rather low power, during that time the motor doesn't get very warm at least:
But it is still rising.
Does anyone know how I can have 2 vesc tools on the phone? (android)
I already have a modified 6.02 on the phone for the other bike.
When I try to install 6.05 I can only choose "update" or "abort"
It is very annoying not being able to do changes to the settings at the tracks.
Here you can see again after today's ride, 7 is not that bad during discharge
I was going to log pretty much, but only got a part of the first lap.
Then it the phone wanted to pair again, and wanted the code that I didn't have with me
Running on rather low power, during that time the motor doesn't get very warm at least:
But it is still rising.
Does anyone know how I can have 2 vesc tools on the phone? (android)
I already have a modified 6.02 on the phone for the other bike.
When I try to install 6.05 I can only choose "update" or "abort"
It is very annoying not being able to do changes to the settings at the tracks.
Here you can see again after today's ride, 7 is not that bad during discharge
I decided to finish the cell block for the second battery and simply change them for now:
It seems like this was the only picture I got from it
Charged it, cell voltages are all over the place here too:
The second picture is after riding, it seems like it is the same cells that are high and low both charged and discharged.
So that is a good sign, I guess it will take until next weekend before the battery is balanced so I can see how it looks properly.
I did some changes to the temp regulation and bumped 100pA to 900.
Then I did a testdrive on the same track as last week.
It felt a lot better, not under powered like last time.
I hit some big power at the beginning:
I think that was before the motor started to get warm. It seemed to often stay around 70-85 degreesC, the top seems to be one ride where I hit 90 degrees:
It seems like this was the only picture I got from it
Charged it, cell voltages are all over the place here too:
The second picture is after riding, it seems like it is the same cells that are high and low both charged and discharged.
So that is a good sign, I guess it will take until next weekend before the battery is balanced so I can see how it looks properly.
I did some changes to the temp regulation and bumped 100pA to 900.
Then I did a testdrive on the same track as last week.
It felt a lot better, not under powered like last time.
I hit some big power at the beginning:
I think that was before the motor started to get warm. It seemed to often stay around 70-85 degreesC, the top seems to be one ride where I hit 90 degrees:
scianiac
10 kW
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2018
- Messages
- 936
I assume the motor cooling is windings > stator > cooling jacket so you figure the heat has to travel from the windings which may be varnished or not, most likely not potted or anything so just kinda touching each other and then to the stator which conducts heat just sorta OK, then to the case and water. I can see why a lot of EV motors include oil sprayers inside the motor to spray the windings with oil or pass oil directly through the stator or various other interesting cooling methods.
I've always wondered how feasible it would be improve motor cooling. I've seen people pot the windings with thermally conductive potting to improve cooling which you would think could help quite a bit with a water cooled motor. Adding an oil or coolant sprayer system inside the motor also sounds interesting. I also though about an alcohol sprayer system where you get the alcohol evaporate and then condense in a radiator, so a forced phase change vapor cooling system.
I've always wondered how feasible it would be improve motor cooling. I've seen people pot the windings with thermally conductive potting to improve cooling which you would think could help quite a bit with a water cooled motor. Adding an oil or coolant sprayer system inside the motor also sounds interesting. I also though about an alcohol sprayer system where you get the alcohol evaporate and then condense in a radiator, so a forced phase change vapor cooling system.
I have seen cooled rotors in ev motors, but not oil spray on the windings.
I have been considering potting or just pour a little oil in the motor and let it do it's own spraying
Oil would be easy, and would find its way everywhere I suppose.
I guess potting would be effective on the end turns, but would it help the stator or the windings in the stator?
I have been considering potting or just pour a little oil in the motor and let it do it's own spraying
Oil would be easy, and would find its way everywhere I suppose.
I guess potting would be effective on the end turns, but would it help the stator or the windings in the stator?
scianiac
10 kW
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2018
- Messages
- 936
If you watch enough Munro motor tear downs you see all sorts of interesting EV motor cooling systems, as per usual Lucid seems to have the most (over?) engineered version, interesting watch if you have a few min to spare.I have seen cooled rotors in ev motors, but not oil spray on the windings.
I have been considering potting or just pour a little oil in the motor and let it do it's own spraying
Oil would be easy, and would find its way everywhere I suppose.
I guess potting would be effective on the end turns, but would it help the stator or the windings in the stator?
I think the reason for the sprayers and dry sump sorta pump out system is too much oil means viscous drag. So like if you put in enough oil so the level doesn't touch or just barely touches the rotor obviously it will cool the parts under oil well and in a road vehicle maybe not much else but on a dirtbike you figure there is going to be some splashing onto the rotor which will be flung onto the stator instantly and some oil will always stay in the windings from capillary action to help them conduct to each other and to the stator. But critically the oil once stay between the rotor and stator generating viscous drag and even more heat. I've always thought DOT 5 brake fluid would be an good choice, it's just silicone oil so pretty inert and it's very very thin viscosity wise. Also probably decent material compatibility.
I think potting would help the windings in the slots more than the end turns, unless the winding is already heavily varnished, which is kinda like topical potting. All those round wires just touch each other here and there but filled with potting you replace all that air with something vastly more thermally conductive. I think ideally this is done with very very thin potting compound and/or under vacuum to get all the bubbles out and fully saturate it.
Another thought that may buy you just a degree or two is a coolant additive, I kinda recall seeing some tests of them and them working but probably work much better in an ICE engine due to larger temperature gradients.
If you fill in oil to cool this engine, then there seems to be one contradiction.
On the one hand, yes - the temperature from the stator windings will be transferred to the rotor by spraying with oil and the rotor will take part of the stator temperature, but! The varnish stator winding can withstand a higher temperature than the neodymium magnets of the rotor, hence the question - do we need to heat the magnets so much, because it is better to transfer the temperature from the stator to the external environment, but not the internal one?
And in this case, it is better to fill the stator windings with a heat-conducting compound so that the windings give off the temperature to the finned motor body.
scianiac
10 kW
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2018
- Messages
- 936
I don't think it will really work like this, first, the idea is to fling the oil off the rotor so the rotor will only get as warm as the oil that's picked up, heat won't conduct from the windings to the rotor. Second the rotor is already as hot as that anyway since it's inside with no way to conduct heat other than through the air (ok technically some small amount though the shaft I guess) which is doing the same thing as the oil but worse at moving heat to the water cooled case. And 3rd the rotor is also being heated by magnetic forces and you can overheat the magnets just from that so in some cases that oil may be cooling the rotor. And forth of course removing heat more efficiently in total will keep everything cooler since inside of the motor is more or less one thermal system.
Now will the potting compound also work well, yes and maybe better or worse than oil, no idea. So far I think I haven't seen any EV motors that are potted, some are exterior cooled like the QS we are talking about here and some have oil sprayer systems. Now why is that I don't know, maybe the oil spray works better since they can remove and cool the oil directly, many also use square hairpin windings so the copper is really packed in there and has a lot of contact with everything. Probably also since they can spray the end turns which have a lot of surface area they can suck a lot of heat out. With a wire wound motor though I bet the oil also helps to fill those wire gaps inside the stator better when compared to a hairpin motor.
I think though if you could ensure everything in the motor is compatible with silicone oil, which is probably the most compatible oil anyway and can be found in extremely low viscosities and is highly temperature stable (don't want it getting thick at low temps) may be fairly safe to try. If there is like too much viscous losses or something you could remove the oil, like even if you just got most of it out it would solve the viscous drag issue and the left over would only help conduct heat or you could probably wash it out if you absolutely needed.
Potting on the other hand seems much much higher risk, you mess it up and the motor is done. Really heavily varnishing the windings is the middle ground, a tried and true idea, I've never seen it go wrong and you probably get a fair amount of the gains from the potting by basically gluing all the windings into a block so they can conduct heat to each other and to the stator with no air getting in the way. I did this on my Leaf motor with just a million coats, the stuff is so thin is just soaks right into the windings but you have to repeat the application about a 100 times to get any real buildup.
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