1969 Raleigh Sports Restoration/ Ebike Build

[amberwolf]

Somehow I missed this build adventure entirely...sorry about that.

Do you think that battery died because of too much discharge? It was only three months old. I think the bouncing hurt it. It just quit suddenly, no fade out.

It's possible one of the terminals is broken inside the battery, cracked at the post/plate connection. It might've begun arcing during the stuttering period, and burned away whatever little connection was left, making it suddenly 0V. That might actually be fixable, if you were willing to cut into the casing of the battery to find the spot (probably at the corner where the terminal is; it might even be obvious which one if there is any damage or cracking nearby).

I've had SLA fall off of CrazyBike2 during a couple of experiments, and was lucky that neither was damaged, but on older experiments with DayGlo Avenger, I did drop one on concrete and it cracked the outer casing. Still worked for a long while, but it was doomed.

I was kicking around the idea of an idler with a friend. He was wondering if a duel set of sprockets pinching from above and below, just floating on the chain, would work? I'll see if I can make a sketch...

It might work; there is another tensioner method that's similar, called a ghost sprocket, used on some tandems and the like. It uses a single large chainring in between the two directions of chain, inside the loop.


BTW, as far as "most frugal person you ever met" goes...I'll dispute that and nominate myself.

But my builds will never look as nice as yours.


Oh, regarding the turn signals and such, here in Phoenix I not only haven't had any issues with that, but have actually been thanked by the police for having the "proper" lighting.

I just still assume I'm invisible regardless, but at least having the same visual language as everyone else on the road for communicating traffic intentions to all around me (including pedestrians) helps immensely. So few people (including police and other cyclists!) seem to know what hand-signals are anymore, but everyone knows what turn signals and brake lights mean, even if they themselves don't use them.

 

[Ornery]

Wow, a reply after so long, I'm thrilled! Didn't want to bother updating this and bringing it to the top, because this is probably old news to everybody here, and I've contributed nothing to the rest of the forum. I certainly have been reading though!

I think I'll start with the battery. I now know why it died. The leather brief has a handle on top, which is secured by a metal strip under the leather. You see where this is going, eh? The inside has a thin satin material covering the strip. The material wore through over the terminals and the rest is history. If I knew that at first, I never would have complained to the reseller, or manufacturer. Complaining to the manufacturer got me a Free "Sample" replacement. I really ought to reimburse them for that!



The tensioner: I actually built one like I asked about. Pinched the chain from both sides, and it worked! But, as you hit the throttle, it would ride up the chain, and when you let off, it rode down. It was hilarious. But, I managed to use the assembly to make a more traditional idler. It's now still a temporary setup, but it works great. I wish somebody would have smacked me long ago and said, "Use an idler, you dolt!" It's been heaven. It routinely lifts the front wheel off the ground without skipping.



Frugal is over. I want this thing working right, and I'm buying whatever it needs. One of which was the $100.00 front carrier. Another was the $100 seat. Bought a nice Combo U-Lock. Got a rear kickstand, that works great. The two legged stand was ridiculous. It was always balanced precariously, and tipped over a few times. No more. The rear stand cost much less and works much better.



The stupid Schwinn 6S wheel has been swapped back to the original Raleigh wheel that got destroyed when the battery rack ripped out a dozen spokes. I threw it up on the bench, loosened all the spokes, and beat it round with a four pound rubber dead blow hammer. Re tightened the spokes and she runs nice and vibration free. That wheel is about 3/4" smaller, so I lost some top end with that. The Schwinn wheel was spindly, and kept getting flats. In hind sight, I think they were pinch flats. Hind sight is too late, because I already invested in new heavy duty, Thorn-Resistant tubes, and tire liners. Got a new replacement tire on order for the original Raleigh rim as well. Oh, and I believe I found a fix for the lack of braking when it rains. Apparently, steel rims can be made to stop when wet, if the pads are lined with leather. I have a 3/16" leather drive belt I put to use:


Yeah, slightly frugal there

The one way bearing on the gearbox output kept crapping out, so I replaced that with a sprocket without a bearing. Just cinched it tight with three set screws. So, if I have to peddle this monster, I'll also be spinning the motor via the gearbox. Not pleasant! The new sprocket is also smaller, so I lost some top end again. It's down to 25MPH top speed now, which I'm not happy about, but it's all working more reliably. The cheap $20.00 freewheel no longer skips. Saves me buying the heavy duty $70.00 unit from Sick Bikes. Someday I'd like to use a double freewheel down there. Next build...

Frugal? No more. Bought a couple half helmets on Ebay. One used black Cyber, and a new Bell chrome. For foul weather I bought a nice red Columbia Watertight coat and black pants. A pair of Tingley Workbrut Over Shoes is on order. In the market for some proper Raleigh Sports fenders too. A couple "Robin Hood" fenders are available on Ebay for $40.00 shipped, but I want the original style, which have molded reflector holder, and heavy stays, instead of wire. I found a whole Raleigh LTD local on Craigslist, complete with proper fenders for only $75.00, so I went to look at it today. Bike was in rough shape, so I passed, but I met the nicest guy. He turned out to be a big shot in suped up Moped circles. His name is Don Pflueger, his handle is DonP, and he rides a Tomos LX, suped up of course. Had a very nice visit with him and his many, many bikes, none of which were motorized, electric or gas. You meet the nicest people in the biking hobby, present company included!

 

[amberwolf]

Didn't want to bother updating this and bringing it to the top, because this is probably old news to everybody here, and I've contributed nothing to the rest of the forum.

If it were me, I'd still update the thread with any new developments as they happen, no matter how old it is. Always good to see how a particular build worked out, when someone is considering something similar. Always disappointing to find a build thread that starts but then doesn't resolve itself, or report how the bike worked out over time.

This thread is a good enough contribution--it's a type of build different from many others, and a DIY build instead of kit. Makes it much more interesting.

I think I'll start with the battery. I now know why it died. The leather brief has a handle on top, which is secured by a metal strip under the leather. You see where this is going, eh? The inside has a thin satin material covering the strip. The material wore through over the terminals and the rest is history.

Yowch. That musta done some damage to the strip and/or case, too, from the heat as current flowed thru it--that could be well over 100A for seconds at a time, at minimum (I saw peaks of at least 135A on CrazyBike2 with similar SLA from an old UPS, when I had a derailed chain jam and cause other destruction that locked the motor up).

If it helps, old thinner teflon cutting boards for kitchens would work great for insulating the top of the bags, and are often found for less than a dollar at thrift stores. Thick ones work too but take up more space in the bag.

For a free solution, you can check with any retail store that uses "clip strips" of products on the aisles. Many of them are disposable plastic ones, and the slick white-ish translucent ones make great insulators. Most places will give you the old empty strips if you ask, especially if you are there on stocking day when they are putting new stuff up. I wrapped my NiMH packs in them and some tape to hold them on, to keep the NiMH from shorting on CrazyBike2's frame. Worked fine for the entire several months I had them on there (before changing to a different pack).

The tensioner: I actually built one like I asked about. Pinched the chain from both sides, and it worked! But, as you hit the throttle, it would ride up the chain, and when you let off, it rode down. It was hilarious.

That sounds strange; I wonder why it does that? Did it cause problems when it did that? Got any video?

But, I managed to use the assembly to make a more traditional idler. It's now still a temporary setup, but it works great. I wish somebody would have smacked me long ago and said, "Use an idler, you dolt!"

I probably would've suggested the idler if I'd seen your thread in time. I tried a couple of idlers on my chain setups to keep from derailing, but i had other problems liek frame twisting from torque that negated the idler's help.

Got a rear kickstand, that works great. The two legged stand was ridiculous. It was always balanced precariously, and tipped over a few times.

I've had problems with all kinds of stands, especially with DayGlo Avenger--the weight is always too far overcenter, and the stand won't hold it up, or the stand begins to bend it's leg or the hinge point breaks, etc.

I keep planning to do a "cane" stand, which would connect to the seatpost just under the seat itself, and have it's foot out to the left (or right), for the bike to lean on. Since it's pivot is above all of teh bike's weight, it *can't* just overcenter itself and fall, even if bumped, especially if one or both of the wheels has a parking brake on it. So far I haven't had time when I had the parts to do it and knew where they were.

Oh, and I believe I found a fix for the lack of braking when it rains. Apparently, steel rims can be made to stop when wet, if the pads are lined with leather. I have a 3/16" leather drive belt I put to use:
http://www.ornery.net/images/DSC04284t.jpg
Yeah, slightly frugal there

I like that. did you just hole-punch the leather dots out, and drill out the pads to friction-fit the leather into them?

I've always had trouble with steel-rim brakes regardless of what shoes were on them, even in dry weather, but I never tried leather.

 

[Ornery]

My wife had to rescue me at 6:30AM. Just got a third pinch flat today, but this time on my old Raleigh rim. Too much weight on that 26" 1-3/8" tire. I've got it at 55lb, which is max for the tire. Wonder if I should take it on up to 65lb or so? I''m picking up a nice new tire on the way home, and it will be assembled with the thorn resistant tube and tire liner. None of that will save me from a pinch flat, though.

The larger holes in that material are from me stretching the fabric to cut the ends of the metal strip, so they won't short anymore.

No video of the wondrous "pinch tensioner", but it was a hoot.

Sounds me me like you could benefit from a Moped type kickstand. Or, a longer, motorcycle kickstand. Seems to me, if a several hundred pound bike can lean on one, yours should be able to.

Buy a leather sewing machine drive belt. They're 3/16" round. Drill a #3 (.213") hole in the pads right down to the backing plate. Put a little glue in, and push the belt in to the bottom. Cut it off and sand it down level. Haven't tried mine in the rain yet, but dry braking is already improved.

Sorry this is so short & curt, but I have to spend the balance of my half hour lunch bumming a ride to get home...

Edit 08-31-11:

Got a pedestrian's eye view of my daily commute yesterday. Sucked! But, that inspired me to get it back together in good order. In the process of replacing the tire & tube, I swapped the old rear sprocket for a smaller one. OMG, this thing flys now! And, with the added benefit of actually being able to peddle along without my legs churning at several hundred RPM. Got a new rear tire on order that can handle 85lbs of pressure, so I think this will cure the pinch flats issue.

Edit 09-01-11:

Rode in a downpour today. New Columbia coat & pants worked great. Tingley boots as well. Braking was marginally improved. Still on the hunt for wet brakes for the steel rims. Salmon in my future? Also, range greatly reduced by the new higher top end. At the end of 12 miles or so, the voltage is noticably reduced. Probably buy a mid size rear sprocket...

 

[amberwolf]

Didn't know there were any updates to the thread, since you added them as edits to your post instead of new posts, so it didn't show any updates in my subscribed threads. (hint hint )

I'd meant to reply to your orignal version fo the last post, but got distracted. Only rememberd (and found your updates) because I wanted to link to your leather pad additons for someone else.

Anyway, you're probably right about the kickstand. Mostly, I have gottne used to just leaning the thing on teh cargo pods, which works well enough, but I would liek a two-leg stand that can easily be dropped, for raising either end off the ground for testing, as well as holding the bike level for whatever other things I need to do.

I built one that was very strong, but the pivot (a simple hinge) was not up to the task, and it broke off, long time ago. Tried a few other things, and either broke them or found they simply wouldn't do the job I needed. Considered cutting the one off the dead ICE scooter I have, and welding it to this frame, but haven't gotten round to that.


Brakes still holding up ok?


How is the power usage with the added load of the higher-geared rear sprocket? I note that it reduced your range (as I'd expect), but do you happen to know what the actual power difference is? Or at least, what difference in motor heat do you feel?

 

[Ornery]

Good Morning AW,

Distracted eh? Very, very sorry to hear about Bonnie. We love our Murphy more than some people, and can't even imagine losing him. It's gotta be hell.

Murphy and I had a close call last week. Can't be too careful I guess.

I won't be bumping this thread much, AW. My current concerns wouldn't interest anybody on this forum. Electrically, I'm up & running. Mechanically, my bike is too frail. Nobody around here would bother trying to build on an old 3-speed. The small rear sprocket has been replaced with the original. I just want this thing semi-reliable, and that's extremely difficult. Besides the heavy battery weight, the torque keeps pulling the rear wheel sideways. Tried to fix it with this:



Ultimately installed one on each side:



Rode it 10 miles this morning. By the time I got back, the axle hadn't shifted, but the chain was super tight. Just the opposite of what I expect. Loosened up the custom brackets, and I'm hoping it doesn't do it again.

Getting real tired of the constant wrenching. Anymore, I just want it to get me back & forth to work, and run an errand or two, without rattling apart. Had to make a change to the brakes, because the drilled version didn't work well enough:



It's basically like the type you would buy. Hard to make out, since it's full of grime, but it's a thin strip of leather inserted in a slot I filed out. It's not great, but at least it can stop... eventually. It's like driving on snow without snow tires, you just start braking earlier. Without the leather, it's like driving on ice without studded snows. It can't stop, no matter when you start to brake!

 

[amberwolf]

Reagarding interest in a conversion like yours, you'd be surprised. If I had one that was worth restoring, I would indeed build it up around a very small pack, and a friction or chain drive that I could stealth up to keep the whole thing looking pretty nice (or else I'd steampunk the whole thing and hide it that way).

The mechanical stuff is indeed interesting and useful, for any of us that would want to do something with an older bike. Kepler's friction drive makes it VERY easy to convert such a bike, too, while leaving it very much original.

I think Solcar might be interested, too (not sure if he has even found this thread), and there are certainly others I can't think of right now.

Re-titling the thread to be something like the name of your build might be a better way to get poeple to find it. "Should I Take the Plunge?" will only interest those that like to help with decisions, or that like to give an opinion, or jsut can't resist opening such threads.


Regarding the axleshifting problem; I've experienced that on CrazyBike2 with it's chaindrive, and had not thought of doing what you did with those plates--I think it should work.

If your chain is getting tighter with them on there, I'm not sure what is causing it. Maybe the rack with the SLA on it is shifting around pushing on the plates, making the axle shift?


I got tired of wrenching with CB2 as well, with it's chaindrive, mostly because I had so much frame flex from the power that it kept derailing and destroying things I couldn't afford to keep replacing. :lol: That's one reason it has a hubmotor now, but it's also why I am building a stiff frame for a new bike to repalce the whole CB2 system.

Regarding Bonnie...it is not any fun, and the only thing that lets me keep going is the other four dogs. If I didn't have them...I dunno.

 

[Ornery]

Morning AW,

Title changed, as you may have noticed :wink:

Talked to the local bike shop owner yesterday. He's an avid trials sponsor. I asked how he keeps his axle from shifting. He said there are a couple ways, and one is called a "snail cam". Showed it to me on his bike. Here's one on a BMX:

Snail Cam Tensioners

So, I think I'm on the right track. If my current setup fails me, I'll be buying some snail cams.

 

[amberwolf]

That's an interesting part, which I had never heard of, that gives me another option for a rear wheel tensioner on my new bike. See, this thread has been really useful at least twice to me already. :lol:

 

[gtadmin]

Reagarding interest in a conversion like yours, you'd be surprised...

Like me

...He said there are a couple ways, and one is called a "snail cam"...

That's an interesting part, which I had never heard of, that gives me another option for a rear wheel tensioner on my new bike. See, this thread has been really useful at least twice to me already. :lol:

I seem to recall they were used in the past on motorbikes, and a forerunner to eccentric cams.

GT

 

[blueb0ttle2]

Yeah, I'm using an older frame on my build, albeit with a hub motor.
I have also been wanting to use a Sturmey Archer hub for changing gears for another project. I have a fondness for planetary gears.
Your experiments are valued, my friend

 

[blueb0ttle2]

BTW if you can spare the money, you can solve much of your breaking problems by using drum brakes.
If you get at least a front drum brake you'll need one of these to secure the braking arm to the front fork.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sturmey-Arc...=260797536634&ps=63&clkid=3054805208950356184

I forgot to get one of these, and my local shop was dumb enough to use cable ties

It won't detract from the "classic image" of your bike, since Sturmey archer has had drum brakes for its bikes at least since the 30's.

 

[Ornery]

AW, I don't know about your application for the "snail cam", but the ones out of the box, are designed for rear drop outs. So, count on making adjustments if yours is otherwise.

Good tip about the hub braking, BB2. I've heard the SA 3-speeds with internal brake were abysmal (can't use one in this application anyway), but I never thought about going with a front hub brake.

Honestly, I can't wait to rip this stuff off my old Raleigh, and put it on a sturdier bike. But, I can't afford to throw any more money at upgrading this thing, let alone start over.

Today is the first day I didn't ride it to work by choice. Just too tired, and I wasn't in the mood. Up till now, it would have ruined my day if I didn't get to ride. Really addictive, but today I'm just lethargic...

 

[amberwolf]

I know the feeling.


Regarding my application, I'd have to make my own version of the cams anyway--but knowing they exist and how they work makes that easy enough.

This is the latest progress
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=464536#p464536
on that bike, to give you a very basic idea of the planned swingarm/dropouts.

 

[Ornery]

Just spent the last week shopping for dual sport motorcycles. came the conclusion it would take ten grand or more to obtain a decent one, or one worth investing in. Too much for the little I'd use it. But, I still have this Raleigh sitting in the porch, collecting dust. The SLA batteries have lost a lot of power, yet still weigh a ton. They are beating up the rear of this bike to the point where it's fragile and undependable.

I'd like to either start from scratch with a beefier bike, or just get a lithium battery and charger for this one. Haven't had time yet to catch up on where technology has progressed since this build. No idea what is the best battery and charger system to migrate to. Obviously no clue where the best prices can found either. I have a LOT of catching up to do, but if anybody can give me a head start, I'd appreciate it.

In my quick search this morning, I stumbled onto an Ebay seller: ELECTRIC BIKE FAT TIRE 48V 1000 WATT w/ 48V LITHIUM BATTERY Looks like a lot for the money. What's the catch?

 

[Whiplash]

http://www.motoped-choose-your-adventure.com/

Check these out, I just got the Pro, version and LOVE it! Goes anywhere EASILY and gets 125mpg! I got mine with a 125cc semi auto, so four speeds, no clutch! I was in your same situation wanting a nice enduro, this fills the gap nicely!!

 

[Ornery]

Wow, those are crazy machines, thanks for pointing me there! I'll research their prices when I get home.

In the meantime, to help with my battery research, the motor I'm using us 1,000 watt at 36 volts. Same with its controller. What would happen if I used a 48 Volt "LIFEPO4" (whatever that is) battery pack with it? The 36 volt units aren't much cheaper.

 

[Solcar]

Amberwolf, you were right on. I just today found this thread.

Ornery, LiFePo weigh about half as much as lead acid, but weigh about twice as much as LiPo.

Care for LiFePo is more forgiving than for LiPo though, while lead acid is easier to care for than LiFePo.

 

[Ornery]

Found out why the SLA batteries are performing so poorly. Pried the cover and caps off and found cells dry and sulfated. I figured I may as well recondition them while I wait for the replacements from China. Looks like it will take weeks to bring them back, if they can be restored at all.

Thanks Solcar, for that break down on the LiFePo vs LiPo. Exactly what I need to know!

 

[Solcar]

You're welcome Ornery, and I have read this thread with interest! Though yours looks much nicer than mine, I put my gearbox and motor in the same spot to make pedaling easier. The bike I used was also an old kinda classic one, a ca. 1980 Huffy ten speed. I used a brush motor too. (Using brush motors I can voltage-boost the battery and still try not to have things get too complicated and I don't need very much power so 12 volts was convenient battery voltage.)

 

[Ornery]

Hmmm, does that mean I could pump 48 volts into this 36 volt, 1000 watt motor with no ill effect? If so, the only concern would be the controller, but I think they're priced low enough to take the chance.

 

[Wisco]

Cool build, Raleigh Sports are fun bikes.

I love drum brakes on bikes, and have a Sturmey-Archer Dynamo drum brake in the front on my ebike. They have an unwarranted reputation for being soft, but I've always found them capable of rapid deceleration but still nearly incapable of locking up. Just be sure you have levers with the appropriate actuation. If memory serves, most drums are long-pull and your Sports levers are likely standard (short) pull. Don't quote me on that though, it's been a few years since I built that wheel.

 

[Ornery]

Thanks Wisco, but if you ever get the chance, don't do it. As beefy as these bikes are, they are NOT good for this purpose. If I had it to do over, it would be with a more substantial frame, maybe with a suspension, disc brakes and a helluva lot more power! I think the three speed hub is up to the task, and I do like that vs derailleur.

If I can't get this thing fast enough to keep up with traffic, I consider it too dangerous. That's why I was looking at the dual sport bikes. The bad thing about a bike with an engine, is you can't legally ride up on the sidewalk. Being able to pass traffic on the sidewalk is a big help for me around here. Our sidewalks are considered "bike paths", which is stupid, but works in my favor frequently. When I'm on the road, I want to stay ahead of traffic, and that's hard to do when your batteries are half dead.

 

[Solcar]

Hmmm, does that mean I could pump 48 volts into this 36 volt, 1000 watt motor with no ill effect? If so, the only concern would be the controller, but I think they're priced low enough to take the chance.

Brush motors are generally less tolerant than brushless to being pushed hard, but I like them because they tend to be easier to get to run smoothly. The controllers can be simpler since brush motors don't have those three winding phases that need separate control and monitoring with hall sensors like brushless. Its hard to get brushless to start smoothly and with a lot of torque without the hall sensoring.

So by not needing extra controller circuitry, it makes it easier to include the voltage booster circuit while still trying to limit how complicated things get. I build my own circuits from scratch using point-to-point wiring without circuit boards. Its kinda old-school I guess.

One thing that I was thinking earlier about how your throttle accidentally got engaged when the wheel was jammed is that could have stretched the chain. That could cause it to have trouble staying seated right on the sprockets.

 

[Ornery]

Cripes, you build your own controllers and I can't even figure out how these batteries work!

I'm just going to play it safe and stick with a 36 volt setup. The rig used to go a little over 30MPH when the batteries were fresh. I figure some new Lithium's will perform at least as well, plus have a lot less weight.

The chain issues all seem to be addressed. I put a tensioner on and that's that. The stupid cam thing was just replaced with a simple 7/16" nut, bolt and washers mounted in the dropout in front of the rear sprocket to keep the axel from coming forward. Put WAY too much thought in the other "solution".