northernmike
10 kW
Ebikes are not fast enough yet.
They need to be MORE DANGEROUS.
Like Mopeds:
[youtube]E4aw4xBOG6o[/youtube]
They need to be MORE DANGEROUS.
Like Mopeds:
[youtube]E4aw4xBOG6o[/youtube]
High speed ebikes. Why?
- Thread starter SamTexas
- Start date
John in CR
100 TW
SamTexas said:
No it's not apples and oranges at all. It's the primary transportation for our family. It's the school bus for our 2 boys except on the days weather prevents it. My 15 year old daughter occasionally will hop on the rear rack making it four of us on the bike at once. That's 250lb me + 75lb + 45lb +100lb. How often does your Z or motorcycle carry 470lb of passengers? I do almost all the grocery shopping using my ebike, and I've even picked lumber at the hardware store. For loads that are too big, or bad weather, or piling the whole family and stuff to head to the beach, we have a minivan, but it stays parked for weeks at a time and can't be considered our primary transportation.
SamTexas said:
You better go check the statistics. You're confusing exposure or risk in the event of an accident with safety. You drive around in a twin turbo 300ZX and ride a Ninja 500R, so without a doubt and it's not even a close call, the odds of you becoming a traffic fatality or suffering a serious injury are greater than mine.
Sam, the problem here is still one of perspective. Even if you double the efficiency of your Z, it would still be an inefficient form transportation. That's because it weighs 3000lb give or take. Therein lies "the waste" using your terminology. That's why Liveforphysics' Civic is both faster and more efficient than your Z. His car has lots more power, but what makes it more efficient is that it weighs far less.
For even more perspective:
Since you brought up efficiency, my ebike gets the equivalent of 500-600mpg. What does your Z get? Don't whine about apples and oranges either because my ebike is at least as useful as your Z for basic transportation. To add insult to injury I can get across town faster, so it's more efficient in terms of time.
You really don't appreciate the performance potential of an ebike. I can make some fairly small changes to make my bike beat your Z from 0 to 60mph, and I'm talking about my cargo school taxi bike. If you care to challenge that statement, let's make it interesting. It's already what, about 20 times as efficient, but better in terms of useful acceleration would be a real slap in the face that I believe is warranted based on the attitude toward ebikes that you've demonstrated above.
After you lose the 0-60, I'll even let you go double or nothing and do a rolling start kind of thing, say 20-60mph, where my ebike would have an even greater advantage over your heavy ice wagon.
John
mdd0127
100 kW
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,084
Ypedal said:
This is an excellent point. A "safe speed" is determined by MANY aspects....which would be very difficult to cover with a single law. I frequently go 45+ mph on loose gravel roads and rocky single track on my downhill bike. It's as stable as an XR600 at those speeds and feels like it would remain stable up to terminal velocity. However, when I do this, it is on an approved one way trail, or down forest roads with my wife ahead spotting. In order to determine "safe speeds", you have to take into consideration the capability of the equipment, skill of the rider, and road conditions, traffic, etc. I would be scared to death to go over 25mph on almost every other e-bike I've seen out there, other than the stealth, regardless of conditions or laws.
To SamTexas,
Here's my logic to building a 50mph capable, pedal-able bike. I'd like people to be able to commute in cities safely on it. If you have never commuted on an efficient two wheeled vehicle in a city, regardless of type, you will have no idea what I'm talking about and should really try bike commuting for a few weeks before forming more opinions. In order to survive on a two wheeled vehicle, commuting with AUTOMOBILES, you must be able to go at least close to their speed. Otherwise you are a sitting duck with constant neck cramps from looking behind you. I commuted on various XR600's for years in different areas and keeping up with traffic is necessary until either ICE cars are slowed down or better pathways are standard, neither of which do I see happening quickly. There were a couple of times that I had mechanical issues and had to ride home at 15-20 mph and I never had so many close calls. It was very stressful. Most people are very rude and in a hurry to do nothing these days. I have also commuted on a bicycle quite a bit over the years and have experienced the same stress and frustration. If everyone lived in Portland, with it's awesome bike thoroughfares, we wouldn't be worrying about all of this but for now, if one is serious about commuting safely in most metro areas on a light electric two wheeled vehicle, they should really consider having a machine that is properly equipped and insured/registered to travel at traffic speeds. I hope that makes sense to you...
bobc
10 kW
I want the electric bike so I can enjoy a bike ride to work without needing a shower. Simple as that. I usually cycle to work inthe summer, it's great exercise and gets me 2hrs workout for the cost of 1hr of my time + I'm not feeding the car, but all the showering & carrying changes of clothing makes it unattractive for every day. For me the 15mph limit is 1mph less than my average pedalling speed, so I'll stay legal thanks; why advertise to Mr Plod that you're breaking the law? Yes I'd prefer if the limit were nearer 20mph, but they aren't going to change it for me. And I'll certainly not publish on a public forum like this that I intend to break the law every time I venture out!
It sounds as though there is a LOT more freedom in other countries - unfortunately not here. Not any more.
I sort of side with the "a bike is engineered for 20mph max" viewpoint I guess - comes from being an old git....
Bob
(14 mile commute through the cheshire countryside - roll on summer ;^)
It sounds as though there is a LOT more freedom in other countries - unfortunately not here. Not any more.
I sort of side with the "a bike is engineered for 20mph max" viewpoint I guess - comes from being an old git....
Bob
(14 mile commute through the cheshire countryside - roll on summer ;^)
bobc
10 kW
Interesting point re: efficiency - I believe the human, as a mahine, is at best 27% efficient - better than a petrol car but maybe not a diesel....
I'm sure someone on here knows the proper figures... ;^)
I'm sure someone on here knows the proper figures... ;^)
John in CR
100 TW
bobc said:
That's about the number I've read too, which puts it on par with modern ICE's, though the human will probably win out with the more efficient drive train to the wheel. When you factor in all the extra weight an ICE hauls around to move you, then the bike wins running away. Fuels cost jumps up to bite you though, because food as fuel is darn expensive, and makes the ebike the most efficient form of transportation known to man. An ebike is in the neighborhood of 60-70% overall efficiency from the electrical socket to power at the wheel, and electricity as fuel is in gasoline's ballpark in terms of price (a US gallon contains 36.6kwh of energy).
John in CR
100 TW
Regarding the whole what is legal thing. First, if you live in a place that has valid elections then anything can be changed to something that makes sense. Second, if 20mph is fine for you then great, just don't go trying to force it on everyone else. I didn't feel as safe on my first 30mph ebike as I do on my 60mph ebike, so it's more the bike itself than the speed. Plus any limits lower than the posted speed limit are just arbitrary. Sam Whittingham broke 80mph in a pedal powered velo. Pro cyclists push 40mph in sprints, and cycling has specific rules to prevent use of recumbents that are faster. It would be laughable to suddenly call any of these machines illegal. If they break the speed limit, then give them a ticket. If speed is the issue, why shouldn't an electric assisted bike be capable of these same speeds?
John in CR said:
Hell yeah. This is the most efficient form of transport, beating even walking or running.
If you think about it, with 1 horsepower an eBike can do 20mph or over. That is with a huge aerodynamic disadvantage. A velomobile, being a bit more like a car aerodynamically could do 40mph+ with the same kind of power.
And yes, food is expensive, and modern agriculture uses a lot of fossil fuels, so if you are using human energy to propel a bike, you are polluting more than an eBike...
Crazy, innit? We are untouchable
MadRhino
100 GW
What about sailing? 8)neptronix said:
OK, it can't be done everywhere, but none better free energy yet...
MadRhino
100 GW
I calculated that if I'd live on a 46th floor, I could sail to work from my balcony!neptronix said:
dogman dan
1 PW
Re changing the law, the trouble is, 1% or less ride ebikes, while the other 99% still get to vote based on information provided by the automobile lobby.
So I'm not holding my breath waiting for change, just trying to blend in.
Thank god I have some nice safe-ish bike routes in my town. Otherwise commuting would be unthinkable. For those that have to keep up with cars, I agree, you better.
So I'm not holding my breath waiting for change, just trying to blend in.
Thank god I have some nice safe-ish bike routes in my town. Otherwise commuting would be unthinkable. For those that have to keep up with cars, I agree, you better.
John in CR
100 TW
MadRhino said:
You're thinking of cost efficiency, not the machine's efficiency (power output/power input), and a sailboat is pretty darn inefficient. Put a wingsail on an ice boat and maybe you're getting somewhere near 50%, but regular sails are something like only 30% efficient if memory serves correctly, and then friction through the water will be a huge hit, putting it somewhere in the single digits in terms of efficiency. Why do you think sailboats are so slow with all that endless power? If you're thinking cost efficiency, I hope it's something like a Sunfish, because large boats are just holes in the water for pouring money into.
MadRhino
100 GW
Something is very efficient with the wind: It's not lost in usage. Unlike other forms of energy, that dissipate in heat or burn in fumes, the wind is still there to use by someone else.John in CR said:
I like the Sunfish, it goes much faster than my Min-Kota E-outboard motor on a canoe. But sailing in the sky is what I had in mind.
SamTexas
1 MW
No and no. Yes it would be a joke. I can't tell if you can differentiate between speed limit and motor assisted limit? Appears to me you attempted mix them up to cloud the issue.Ypedal said:
There no specific speed limit for bicycles. If you can pedal 30mph then good for you. People including law officers will applaud your strenght. The 20mph limit for ebike only applies to the electric motor assist. It simply means that motor assistance should stop when you reach that limit. If you can still pedal faster than that, do it, not a single person will try to discourage you.
SamTexas said:
I can too, but I can't sustain that speed for a long time. And true "on the flats" only exist in short distance before you hit some inclines or winds which will significantly lower your speed.theRealFury said:
Did you read my initial post? Why are you so defensive? And please, do not talk to me about voting politicians out of the office. People who talk big like yourself are the least likely to vote. Save your big, vulgar language for face to face conversation, you might find out that people don't like it and have a way to respond to it.number1cruncher said:Why not?
If your argument is that they are dangerous, then don't ride one. If you are concerned your local officials are going to ban all ebikes because of a few fast ones, vote the imbeciles out of office.
To assume that every creation you see on this site is being ridden on the road is short-sighted. Do you assume that all ice dirt bikes are ridden on the road? Of course not, because they are special purpose vehicles.
I am getting tired of nanny-state tactics that add no value to our society. Maybe we should make bleach illegal because it could be consumed by an idiot? Or make water illegal because we may all drown in it? Where does this nonsense stop?
Wow! Thanks for that video.northernmike said:
You carry up to 4 people on a bicycle, 3 of them are your own kids, traveling at very high speed, and you talk about better safety compared to riding a car. Sorry John! Like I said before, you're are BSing yourself. And no, I don't want to have a bet with you. In fact, I don't really want to read/hear anything about you and your sick logic anymore.John in CR said:No it's not apples and oranges at all. It's the primary transportation for our family. It's the school bus for our 2 boys except on the days weather prevents it. My 15 year old daughter occasionally will hop on the rear rack making it four of us on the bike at once. That's 250lb me + 75lb + 45lb +100lb.
....
You better go check the statistics. You're confusing exposure or risk in the event of an accident with safety.
....
You really don't appreciate the performance potential of an ebike. I can make some fairly small changes to make my bike beat your Z from 0 to 60mph, and I'm talking about my cargo school taxi bike. If you care to challenge that statement, let's make it interesting. It's already what, about 20 times as efficient, but better in terms of useful acceleration would be a real slap in the face that I believe is warranted based on the attitude toward ebikes that you've demonstrated above.
After you lose the 0-60, I'll even let you go double or nothing and do a rolling start kind of thing, say 20-60mph, where my ebike would have an even greater advantage over your heavy ice wagon.
John
oldpiper
1 kW
Back to the original question - Why?
I posted this a couple of days ago on a thread about dogman's racing bike, when the conversation had drifted to this same question - "Why?", but that one seems to have run out of steam. So, with the moderators' permission, from the other thread:
You've got to have a fantasy life somewhere, and this one is safer than dreaming about your perfect girlfriend (especially if you talk in your sleep and your wife wakes up :x ).
And, when someone gets performance with a bike at high speed, it's a good bet it'll work for you at moderate (<= 50 mph ) speed, too.
Cameron
I posted this a couple of days ago on a thread about dogman's racing bike, when the conversation had drifted to this same question - "Why?", but that one seems to have run out of steam. So, with the moderators' permission, from the other thread:
izpirkt said:
You've got to have a fantasy life somewhere, and this one is safer than dreaming about your perfect girlfriend (especially if you talk in your sleep and your wife wakes up :x ).
And, when someone gets performance with a bike at high speed, it's a good bet it'll work for you at moderate (<= 50 mph
) speed, too.Cameron
John in CR
100 TW
Where did Sam go? I issued a challenge for my ebike to race against his Twin Turbo 300ZX 0-60mph, but he disappeared. If 60 is too scary for him, I guess I could go along with making it 0-50mph instead. 8) That's more like real world use anyway.
SamTexas
1 MW
You're correct that better efficiency has NO or NEGLIGIGLE effect on the electricity cost required to recharge the battery. It makes no difference (that we care) whether it costs 1.5p or 2.0p, or 25% saving.theRealFury said:
But that 25% saving makes a tremendous difference as far as your range is concerned. 12.5 vs 10km, 25 vs 20, ....
Edit: typos corrected.
dogman dan
1 PW
Why the fast bike? To scare the crap out of yourself in the Death Race, and get to brag about how big your balls are. At a certain point, at least in the USA these bikes belong on the track, the dirt, or some kind of private property. Some urban commuters dig em to keep up with traffic, but personally I need a safe lane to ride in, or I'd rather be insured and licenced on a motorcycle.
Why not the efficient bike? Indeed why not? My bikes have ranged in speed from 12 mph to 50, and all over in between. Some have been great in dirt, some have incredible range, some have gone pretty dang fast pretty dang far. To me the sweet spot is just about where a lot of us are riding, Whatever voltage on a motor that goes about 25 mph. Reasonably fast, but not a cop magnet. Reasonably long range too.
The real thing I don't understand is why just one bike, unless you are fairly poor. But even that's a lame excuse, look at Amberworlf.
Why not the efficient bike? Indeed why not? My bikes have ranged in speed from 12 mph to 50, and all over in between. Some have been great in dirt, some have incredible range, some have gone pretty dang fast pretty dang far. To me the sweet spot is just about where a lot of us are riding, Whatever voltage on a motor that goes about 25 mph. Reasonably fast, but not a cop magnet. Reasonably long range too.
The real thing I don't understand is why just one bike, unless you are fairly poor. But even that's a lame excuse, look at Amberworlf.
John in CR
100 TW
SamTexas said:
I never said I gave the kids a ride to school at high speed, and of course I don't, I just match traffic speed with appropriate space front and back. It's almost comical how much space a tailgater gives after a dirty look from a ten year old combined with a zigzag of the bike.
You're the one who insinuated that my bike isn't useful because it only carries one person, but in fact the 90+% of the time it's not raining my bike is more useful and convenient as transportation than your car. Every time you sit behind a line of cars for whatever reason, think of me...I don't do lines. Every time you have to hunt for a parking space, or you have to walk from out in the boonies because you don't want to park near the other idiots and get your precious car dinged, think of me...I park in front by the door and never hunt for a space. Every time you're stuck at a traffic signal through more than one cycle, think of me...I'm always up front and accelerate ahead of the first car in line. I used to be a cager too. I don't ride to save the planet, or to save money, or because I lost my license. I ride my ebike because it's a more convenient form of transportation that saves time, and because it's fun in a way that can't be explained, only experienced.
Regarding being safer, it's simple logic, not sick logic. I'm far less likely to get into a serious crash, which offsets my greater risk in the event of a crash. There are quite a few factors that go into that claim, but the bottom line is that your steel cage gives you a false sense of security.
As far as you chickening out of the challenge, that makes me winner by default. I'll tell my son to add a twin turbo 300ZX to the list. He likes to keep track, so you join company with a Porsche's, Ferrari's, a Mazerati, and several other decent sports cars we see around here. You were going to be the first not handicapped by traffic, so I was going to need to do some mods, but it sure would have been fun to prove that your alligator mouth overloaded your hummingbird ass.
Ebikes rule, and I hope you see them zipping by you every day when you're stuck in traffic with all the other cagers.
John
I'd like to add my 2 cents on the mater at hand.
First of all high speed ebike's are allot safe then people going 40 mph on a track bike (no brakes) at side of the road.
secondaly why not focus on extremely bad drivers of cars before blaming the ebike r? also it a lot easier/cheaper to build a high speed MTB then it is to build a motorcycle. even a minor like myself (I am 14) could pull it off. get a cheap used MTb buy a cheap hub motor and over volt the heck out of it! and there you go! you have go yourself a bicycle that might outrun a 125cc dirt bike! to those of you that have high speed ebikes why not register them as motorcycles?
cheers,
jacob R
First of all high speed ebike's are allot safe then people going 40 mph on a track bike (no brakes) at side of the road.
secondaly why not focus on extremely bad drivers of cars before blaming the ebike r? also it a lot easier/cheaper to build a high speed MTB then it is to build a motorcycle. even a minor like myself (I am 14) could pull it off. get a cheap used MTb buy a cheap hub motor and over volt the heck out of it! and there you go! you have go yourself a bicycle that might outrun a 125cc dirt bike!
to those of you that have high speed ebikes why not register them as motorcycles?cheers,
jacob R
AussieJester
1 TW
SamTexas said:
Easily achieved Sam, if you go into your control panel you can ad Mr Costa Ricca to your foes list, his post will then not
appear in your thread.
KiM
SamTexas
1 MW
AussieJester said:
It works! Thanks KiM.
SamTexas
1 MW
dogman said:
I can't agree more with you. Yes, the track, the dirt and private property are the places for high speed ebikes. Where and when is "Death Race"? Is it an annual event?
John in CR
100 TW
SamTexas said:
Then the track, the dirt and private properly are the places for bicycles as well as motorcycles. First, it was why bother with high speed ebikes because they're inefficient, but once the difference is demonstrated in my case at the high end of consumption to be only $30/year, now without explanation or justification my bike doesn't even belong on the street. This gets more comical by the minute.
