High speed ebikes. Why?

[LI-ghtcycle]

Wow, I should have brought some wieners to this roast, could there be a new "Safe"?

Sad when things turn from conversation to "I'm right and you're stupid" but it does provide some entertainment. :wink:

Bottom line, we either learn from each other or not, I'd rather see things through other people's eyes and be richer for it.

I do think we should add something to the "speed competitions" like the Death Race, maybe we could have a "tractor pull" E-Bike style? Of course it will be really hard for anyone to beat Dr. Bass pulling the school buss, but he'll be in the unlimited class, we need to have stock, super street and modified classes too maybe?

 

[dogman dan]

The Death Race is the annual motorized bicycle national championship. Started quite a few years ago by Spooky Tooth Cycles, it is held in Tucscon AZ, on an excellent go kart track. This year it will be April 16th. 15 bucks entry fee. This will be the first year with a significant turn out of electric bikes. Most of the competitors will run gasoline motors.

For John, My comment about off street did say, " In the USA these bikes belong on the track" etc. I don't really think riding them on the public street is inherently unsafe. But it is inherently illegal and uninsurable in the USA. It's the bust, and the uninsured accident that I think should be avoided in the USA. US law depends on the state, so legally the bike may be ok to 20 mph in one place, 30 in another. I don't see 30 mph as a problem. Above 30, cheap bikes tend to get the high speed wobbles. But a properly built high speed bike won't wobble at 50 mph. Mine doesn't.

Trying to register a bike as a motorcycle is pretty dang tough. Impossible in some States I believe. So for those that want real speed on public streets, the easiest route is going to be taking a motorcycle or scoot that has a VIN number on it, and convert it to electric. Then you have insurance and a licence plate.

A LOT will depend on the riders area. More rural, or quieter suburban areas may have streets where a 40 mph bike is not even noticed. In a more urban enviroment, you may have some issues getting your busted bones paid for when the lawyers get wind of what you were riding. Chances are it never happens. But if it does, then cops are looking at the bike and going WTF? Witnesses say he was going 50? etc. Pretty soon you better have a good lawyer because the guy that tagged you has an insurance company looking for reasons to blame you. An illegal unlicenced uninsured motorcycle is good ammo for the lawyers to beat you down with.

I'm not going to sit here and say I've never ridden illegally fast on the streets. A test of my DR bike hit 50mph on a 45 mph street the other day. I don't take that bike and ride all over town though. Other commuters I've had went 27- 30 mph. The legal limit in my state is 25 mph btw. Nowdays I'm commuting on a 20 mph bike, mostly so I can afford to look around some while riding, and have much greater range. give me 30 mph and I'll go 30, and have half the range.

 

[ev_nred]

thanks for the info. you should count your slef lucky to be able to ride 25mph. here in canada all we get is 500watt and 20mph
cheers,
jacob R

 

[dogman dan]

I get 25 mph because there is no such thing as an Ebike in the New Mexico state law. So I'm a moped, limited to 25 mph, and have to have a valid drivers licence to use it. Not that cops care localy.... They never bat an eye provided you obey speed limits and stop signs.

 

[D-Man]

Good thread. If everyone used a production type ebike or production kit that only went 20mph, this forum would be pretty boring. Everything going on in here is tinkering, projects, success, and failures. People come here to exercise their brain, communicate, and be amused. As far as enforcing any speed laws, I don't see that coming. They can't even enforce the cell phone law! I see people everywhere using cell phones while driving.

 

[ev_nred]

agreed! but the cops relly need to take care of bad drivers before even thinking about stoping electirc bikes form going over the limit just last week I saw a bus driver texting and driveing because of his idiotic act he could have not only killed himself but everyone on bored. my point is that if you crash on an ebike going 100mph you just break your own neck. but when the old women in the huge suv crashes into someone she will be safe everyone eles wont...
cheers,
ev_nred

 

[auraslip]

I want to derail this thread a second -

Why are we using bicycles? It seems we want to go FAST, and a lot of the money and time we spend is preparing our bikes for the challenges of handling xxxxx watts of power. Brakes, suspension, custom torque arms, tires, and the such.

I know motorcycles probably weigh 200-300lbs more than a bike, but wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to build motorcycles?

My neighbor has a 80's kawasaki chilling in his back yard, and every time I pass it I think, "why not?"

Insurance and licensing would be a bitch, but at least we'd have insurance. Imagine getting hit and convincing an insurance company your bike is worth $3000 in custom parts.

Efficiency would be the biggest hit, but hey, you could fit a LOT of batteries on a motorcycle.

 

[ev_nred]

I think I have got the answer. there are a few reasons for this. the main reason for this is that we as humans want to stand out in a crowed if we just convert motorcycles to electric they will not look nearly as cool. also some of as already got a motorcycle thats extremely fast and to have another one thats slower would just not fell right.
best regards,
jacob R

 

[Hillhater]

I want to derail this thread a second -

Why are we using bicycles? It seems we want to go FAST, and a lot of the money and time we spend is preparing our bikes for the challenges of handling xxxxx watts of power. Brakes, suspension, custom torque arms, tires, and the such.

I know motorcycles probably weigh 200-300lbs more than a bike, but wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to build motorcycles?

most "motorcycles " are built to handle 20+ Kw..up to 100+ kW .. and as a result are hugely over engineered for a typical Ebike set up.
however, the lighter "moped" ..50-100cc , Motobecane, Solex, Honda Cub, Raleigh "Wisp", Sach "Madass", etc etc ... type of machine is designed to handle 5 -10kW , yet be not too heavy.
They would be a much better, safe machine for electrification

 

[auraslip]

Sweet scooter. Just need to find a cheap one with room for batteries!

 

[Hillhater]

Sweet scooter. Just need to find a cheap one with room for batteries!

Batteries in the frame ...as they do with the fuel ! :wink:

 

[MadRhino]

They would be a much better, safe machine for electrification

This is not safer, nor rides better than my DH and freeride bikes.

I would not build a performance E-bike, with the handling and braking abilities of this 'thing'. This would not survive a week of my riding in the mountain, if I'd survive the first day.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

You know, I never really thought much about it, but it is true that there isn't really a power or speed regulation on anything else like there is for E-Bikes (and in some places all powered bikes) and how are they going to enforce it? I know that Germany is pretty crazy with portable dynamos and such, but I don't see that coming to the US any time soon (ok, MAYBE in the people's republic of California ).

So yes, we are more regulated than most vehicles, but we also have some pretty sweet options, how many vehicles are allowed to assume pedestrian status? And who else has special paths and lanes built just for them?

I know I am spoiled with all this nice stuff in the Portland OR area, but as I see it, we have it pretty good now, just hope that the regulation Nazis don't start taking notice too much, or we WILL be like the over-regulated areas.

I'm not sure what it's going to take to get a "moped" status for the higher powered E-Bike that I want to build eventually (something that will be taken as a motorcycle at night, i.e. have all the same signals and lights and be capable of about 45MPH) but I think that bike will only be useful to me if I can keep up with traffic and ride in the road. The biggest problem with a high powered E-Bike IMHO, is that most drivers don't EXPECT 30+ MPH out of you, so will be unintentionally cutting me off at that speed.

 

[John in CR]

20mph or less...yawn. Sure I go slow and check the scenery occasionally, but only by choice given certain circumstances. I wouldn't even ride if actually restricted to that speed. Instead I'd just get one of those mobility scooters spice it up to 20mph, mount a sun shade, and at least enjoy ez-chair comfort.

The only other vehicle subjected to such arbitrary limits is mopeds, but I think that only held up because mopeds never became popular. Ebikes will be different. 100 years from now there will still be ebikes while gas powered cars will be no more than museum relics other than a few rare antiques.

 

[ev_nred]

I dont think there will be many ebikes 20 years form now yet alone 100 years form now reasons is that mopeds are just more common and are accepted by society. but lets get back to the topic at hand.
cheers,
jacob R

 

[John in CR]

I dont think there will be many ebikes 20 years form now yet alone 100 years form now reasons is that mopeds are just more common and are accepted by society. but lets get back to the topic at hand.
cheers,
jacob R

That's like saying bicycles won't be around in 20 years. It will probably take 10 years for ebikes to be common in most of the world, and maybe 20 for growth to peak. Metropolitan areas will only become more congested, increasing the advantages of 2 wheeled transport, and the best 2 wheeled transport is the e-bike, which can only be bested by going airborne, but unfortunately personal vehicle flight is a long way off. The reason ebikes in the future it is on topic is because people will generally want higher power than currently allowed in most parts of the world. Manufacturers will eventually come to realize there is a need for something between what is currently a motorcycle or scooter and what is currently an off the shelf ebike. Many of us are already enjoying such machines. Fast ebikes weren't needed in China, because it was already congested with slow pedestrian and pedal bike traffic. The slow low power regulations were only the result of pedalists being the only organized voice of influence involved in setting the rules, and China was only building the low power stuff anyway.

Of course fast doesn't belong on paths or even bike lanes, but if you want to mix with traffic it's better to have speed and power. It converts you from being a slow moving obstacle relying on cars to avoid you, to the cars becoming the obstacles that you avoid in the manner of your choosing. You fit in the existing spaces, and cross paths with far fewer cars on each ride. It's a night and day difference in riding once you can pace traffic. Slow ebikes on the road are little different than granny on the freeway driving her car at 40mph.

At the edge of the road with no room to maneuver is certainly no place for a 2 wheeler, because there are so many more hazards and you are far less visible. That's where car doors open, where loose rocks, sand, glass, pieces of tire and other debris accumulate, not to mention poorly designed water drains, and other dangers found near the side of the road. I wouldn't want to ride a motorcycle over there, much less a bike.

Low speed ebikes are for those who want ride la-di-da on the paths with pedestrians, because that's the only place they're safe. Lump them in with cyclists whining, rightly so, about lack of infrastructure. That brings up another answer to "Why?". High speed ebikers don't need new infrastructure, since the roads are already there, and there's plenty of space for our low numbers right now.

Whether or not a high speed ebike makes sense will vary a lot by area. It sounds like where Dogman lives it wouldn't, because typical traffic is more like 60mph+ and a motorcycle is necessary. If, however, traffic is below 50 except on the highways, then an in-between vehicle like a high speed ebike is entirely appropriate. What's legal and what isn't, along with the difficulty in changing regulations is irrelevant. Once I need to register I will, even if I have to integrate the VIN# portion of a motorcycle frame to get it done. I'm just spelling out why I believe that as long as the roads are dry, ebikes capable of matching traffic speeds are the best vehicle there is, and it's quite satisfying building your own primary form of transport that is better than anything else out there in so many ways.

 

[dogman dan]

Fortunately a lot of bikers did whine in my town, so there is some infrastructure for us in the new parts of town. The bike path is worth 20 mph riding to me, so it made sense for me to build a fairly high powered, but slow commuter. I also have some decent scenery to gawk at on my slow ride too. I've been staring at the organ mts for 50 years and still love to do it.

But I do love to go 40+ mph on my race bike too. Nothing beats a good jolt of adrenaline. On another thread they are playing with flamethrowers. Nothing like being on fire to get that juice going. 8) I need that juice nearly daily, but I just want more space when I do it than I get on the street riding in traffic.

 

[John in CR]

I'm no adrenaline junkie, so no need of regular doses, and with cars around I'd wouldn't even classify my riding as fun. Focused and purposeful are better descriptions. Clear road and takeoffs gets into fun riding. Soon I'll do an acceleration upgrade to get closer to the ultimate goal of amusement park ride status, but just like in a car or on a motorcycle, max performance will be reserved for conditions permitting. Once I get my downhiller going the world becomes my road, so that should be lots of fun, and definitely not limited to low power or slow.

 

[liveforphysics]

I think I have got the answer. there are a few reasons for this. the main reason for this is that we as humans want to stand out in a crowed if we just convert motorcycles to electric they will not look nearly as cool. also some of as already got a motorcycle thats extremely fast and to have another one thats slower would just not fell right.
best regards,
jacob R

No.
No.
No.

Nothing to do with cool.
Nothing to do with looks.
Nothing to do with standing out.

I couldn't care less if I'm riding around in a dumpster with dicks and flowers painted all over it if its the most logical transpiration choice.

I own street motorcycles. I own dirtbikes. I own cars. I own bicycles. I own electric bicycles.

What motivates me to take an ebike over something that is a billion times better on roads and in traffic like my GSX-R1000 superbike?

Simple. The ebike gets all the advantages of a bicycle:
Can get places as fast or faster than a car by moving through cars in traffic.
Can ride on bike paths to avoid traffic.
Can cut through parks and shortcuts through parking lots etc.
Can zip down the sidewalks as needed.
Can lift over gates or whatever as needed.
Can blast through public places with out attracting attention or disrupting people with noise.
Does NOT require registration.
Does NOT require insurance.
Does NOT have a licence plate number (or any visual links back to me).
Does NOT require an operators licence (I have a legit licence right now, but you never know when you will get your next racing/reckless ticket.)

These are the advantages that draw me into using an Ebike. If the ebike only went 30mph, I just can't see myself using it. On an ebike that does >60mph, it becomes an exciting pleasure to use and enjoy the advantages of the above mentioned features.


If you make an electric motorcycle, first, you've thrown away the above advantages. Second, you need at least 2-3x more battery to get the same useful range (because the efficiency is crap). Third, unless you really step up the motor performance (like a UQM motor, or more than 2 agni motors, or something similar), then you're looking at something with extremely tame performance compared with gasoline bikes, and if you DO get the right $motor$ and $controller$, you end up with something drastically pushing the no-fun-anymore weight territory for motorcycles. Your larger battery/charger is still limited by what you can pull out of an outlet, so where my 1400w charger can put a useful amount of energy into my pack in the time I stop to eat lunch and continue on my way, a motorcycle doesn't get useful benefit from opertunity charging.

Also, as far as enjoyment goes, combining the lightest platforms with loads of power creates things that you can't stop smiling about. For example, you buy an Acura TSX-S, drive it around, and feel board out of your mind like you're trapped in a sensory deprivation chamber. It is not even capable of doing something that makes me smile. However... you take that same engine and transmission out of the TSX-S, and you put it in a 1987 CRX-HF (an 1880lbs car), and now that same engine that gave you depression from using it gives you thrills and makes you giggle like a retard everytime you drive it, and your cheeks hurt from smiling so much while driving. The fuel economy also changes from 20-30s to 40-50s. Why is it so fun? Because it was built to function with 67bhp, and now it's got 220-250bhp (depending on what you did when installing it). Take a bicycle that was designed around having 300w of pedal power, give it 10x more, and it becomes a blast to use. Take a motorcycle that was designed for 50bhp, put 30-40bhp into it, and you're going to end up with a very tame and lame ride.

 

[John in CR]

LFP,

100% agreement. We did leave off one really nice one, and that is pulling up next to Sam in his pride and joy twin turbo Z on something that looks more like a bike than a motorcycle, and blow his doors off leaving the stoplight.

Just imagine what we'll be able to do with only a 3-5X improvement in battery energy and power density that is almost assured in the not too distant future.

 

[sk8norcal]

They would be a much better, safe machine for electrification

This is not safer, nor rides better than my DH and freeride bikes.

I would not build a performance E-bike, with the handling and braking abilities of this 'thing'. This would not survive a week of my riding in the mountain, if I'd survive the first day.

I like that madass..
that madass is for on road not off...
the components can always be upgraded...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUxOQg9-DKU

speaking of restrictions,
I am not sure of the rules for scooters in Europe.. (or Taiwan, the scooter capital of the world)
50cc scooter is restricted to 35mph.. ?
mods illegal ?
age restriction to 125cc ..?
mopeds?


doesn't ford have a car that parents can set a "teen mode" ?

 

[sk8norcal]

[youtube]Y6o-g7YeC4Q[/youtube]

 

[jbond]

Simple. The ebike gets all the advantages of a bicycle:
Can get places as fast or faster than a car by moving through cars in traffic.
Can ride on bike paths to avoid traffic.
Can cut through parks and shortcuts through parking lots etc.
Can zip down the sidewalks as needed.
Can lift over gates or whatever as needed.
Can blast through public places with out attracting attention or disrupting people with noise.
Does NOT require registration.
Does NOT require insurance.
Does NOT have a licence plate number (or any visual links back to me).
Does NOT require an operators licence (I have a legit licence right now, but you never know when you will get your next racing/reckless ticket.)

Absolutely, I think the EU limits (250w, 25kmph max assist, pedelec only) are a bit draconian, but I'll live with them and bend the rules a bit if it means I'm invisible. I have absolutely no problem riding a bicycle in traffic, on the roads, on paths and generally ignoring (safely and not stupidly) most traffic regs. If I can do that with a bit of assist to take the sting out of the hills and push up the average speed a bit without anyone noticing then it's all good.

But I'm also interested in electric powered two wheelers that are an alternative to petrol powered motorcycles. There should be vehicle registration and testing mechanisms in the law that allow for this. And there should be manageable ways of building and running prototypes that are scaled to the usage. If you build a 30mph moped, it should be trivial to get it tested, licensed and insured. But if you build a 150mph streamliner it should have a proper safety check but without having to go through full type approval and crash testing.

What I'm not sure about is that grey space between E-Bikes and Motorcycles. If the Chinese flooded the market with dirt cheap E-bicycles that did 29mph and loads of people bought them, failed to maintain them, had stupid accidents and upset everybody in the process, there'd be an outcry in the mainstream press and the police would be forced to "Do Something". This is exactly what happened in the UK with Mini-Motos, pit bikes, small motocrossers and quads. The kids still ride them in the woods. Every once in a while they get arrested and the machines crushed. There are signs up on the main trails in the woods about non-legal motorised vehicles being banned. I really, really don't want this to spread downwards to Electric Assist Bicycles. Even though the likely hood of being caught is pretty low, I don't want the attention.

That's all for Europe. I don't really have any idea what that means for the USA.

 

[sk8norcal]

I dont think US have to worry for a long time..

the main problems I see will be the same as inconsiderate bicyclists,
riding too fast in high foot traffic area, and not behaving like a vehicle on the road..


taiwan already requires registration,
and the government also promotes ebikes..
not sure if there are many 'outlaw' ebikers in Taiwan..
or their watt limit..

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23923

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, biggest problem in my town is jackasses on pedal bikes around campus. Of course, at 19, I was the jackass pedaler around campus too. :lol:

Their complete bike messenger riding style just pisses off every car driver in town, leaving us older riders with the backlash from drivers. I work near campus, but totally avoid riding through it. It doesn't help the situation any for my ebike to get lumped in with the jackass pedalers.

As for riding in traffic, not my first choice, with the drivers all texting each other all day while driving.