Phase wire connectors overheating

[shorza]

Here are the phase connectors between my 9c motor and Lyen 12FET controller.


Obviously, my controller settings of 43amps (120amp phase) is too high. I have now adjusted the phase current to 100amps.
The plugs are making a good connection, but are there better connectors that I could use?

 

[DAND214]

Most use Anderson power pole.

Some hard wire but that's hard if you get a flat.

I'm using 4mm bullets from HobbyKing.

Dan

 

[Philistine]

Really common problem. In fact I get the same problem on Anderson 45s if I run more than 40amps battery (my 5303 draws a constant high amp, and tends to stress connectors as a result). The Andersons get mishappen and don't connect properly. Personally I think you should only ever run bullets on phase wires, and I run 6mm bullets myself: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5281

But most people run 4mm ones http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__67__4mm_Gold_Connectors_10_pairs_20pc_.html without issue.

Since I moved to bullets I haven't had a single issue.

 

[shorza]

Thanks guys, I have a heap of 4mm connectors, i'll just use those.

 

[Alan B]

Do you think those wires are adequate for 100 amps?

Much of the cooling for the connector comes from the wires conducting heat away. Those wires don't appear to be 100 amp (the thin wires on the side of the connector that overheated).

 

[dogman dan]

All of the above.
I've been suprised that Lyens builds those high power controllers, and then still uses cheap bullets. I've cut em off every one of my lyens controllers immediately, event the tiny 9 fet. Using at most 4000w for a burst, and mostly 2000w or less, Iv'e been able to just use 45 amp powerpoles. I'd go to bullets if I was runnning 8 or 10 guage phase wires though.

 

[Ypedal]

I slapped a set of Deans on my neighbor's 9C running at 100 amps batt current, i soldered the wires across both legs of the deans to double things up !! :wink:

 

[sn0wchyld]

Here are the phase connectors between my 9c motor and Lyen 12FET controller.


Obviously, my controller settings of 43amps (120amp phase) is too high. I have now adjusted the phase current to 100amps.
The plugs are making a good connection, but are there better connectors that I could use?

bugger. Maybe I should check mine...

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

Those connectors are absolutely garbage, and often simply crimped. They barely take 20A, and never should be used. My friend cooked a controller as a result of one of those having a intermittent connection, even with it being visibly connected.

45A Anderson Power Poles are what I would recommend. 4mm and up bullet connectors would work, but are substantially inferior to PP's if you ask me.

 

[Ykick]

All of the above.
I've been suprised that Lyens builds those high power controllers, and then still uses cheap bullets. I've cut em off every one of my lyens controllers immediately, event the tiny 9 fet. Using at most 4000w for a burst, and mostly 2000w or less, Iv'e been able to just use 45 amp powerpoles. I'd go to bullets if I was runnning 8 or 10 guage phase wires though.

Yes, I was surprised to find my little 9 FET Lyen connectors showing mild insulation melting last time I had 'em exposed. Nothing as severe as the pic here but I'm only running 15S Lipo and barely peaking 2200W hot off the charger.

I thought these would handle more than the 45A pp's but maybe I better do the switch?

 

[cassschr1]

Looks like the heat is being created in the crimp area, were they soldered also?

 

[dnmun]

you need to spread out the phase wires so they don't touch and so they get more air but they are overloaded since the insulation has melted further back than the connector, imo.

if you soldered the connection would there be enuff slack to get the wheel off for a flat?

 

[itchynackers]

Dont use Andersons unless they are the 75A or more. The 45's are complete garbage for this application. 4mm's are good. XT150's are good.

 

[Ypedal]

For the record.. i use PP45's on everything i own including an X5 with 12fet Lyen, RC bike at 48v 100 amps, daily driver 100v 40 amps.. etc etc etc... zero problems !

 

[wojtek]

Dont use Andersons unless they are the 75A or more. The 45's are complete garbage for this application. 4mm's are good. XT150's are good.

totally agree!!!

I am using now XT150 - they are one of the best connectors i ever used. with black and red housing for good protection and avoiding any mistakes. They stay firm together.

IF you want something stronger than 4mm bullets, there are also 6mm bullets.

Let me know if you need any- i still have some connectors to get rid of together with the wires.

 

[Beavinator]

I use the 75 amp Powerpoles on my connections. They are a bit big but you don`t see them because I have the connections right at the controller.

 

[kifukarider]

This is an important thread. The phase wires may carry over 2.5 times the input battery amperage. The connectors on my Lyen controller experienced the same effect as yours, but to a lesser extent since I noticed it early. The Lyen controllers ship with inadequate phase wire connectors. This is an issue for the GNG controllers as well, and I suspect many controllers. The GNG uses a yellow junction box with ring connectors which gets quite hot, though I've have not experienced a failure with the yellow box.

I upgraded to 6.5mm bullet connectors on the phase wires. I don't see a point in going smaller since you can fold thinner gauge wire to fill the cup or use more solder. I triple heat shrinked the connectors. For 6.5mm, the first layer was 1/4" heat shrink, the next two layers were 3/8". I also added heat shrink to the wire joint for added reinforcement. I've gone on a long ride with serious hills and high sustained amp draw and the connectors only get mildly warm at 100 phase amps. There are also great tutorials on youtube for soldering the bullet connectors. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=soldering+bullet+connectors

 

[John in CR]

The only reason to use connectors at all is if you must park your bike in a location where you have to remove major components to feel secure. The comment above about flats is erroneous, because a proper drip loop give you sufficient slack to remove a wheel.

The main problem of the OP is controller settings which are just wasting battery capacity. I don't know what wind the motor is, but unless it's a 5 turn, which almost no one uses, it can't handle those phase currents. Justin tested a 9x7 and it saturated at phase amps of 70A, so even that high is really too high. Running your phase current limits anywhere near stator saturation creates tremendous amounts of heat, and is the primary reason people burn up motors, halls, or wiring.

 

[kifukarider]

The only reason to use connectors at all is if you must park your bike in a location where you have to remove major components to feel secure. The comment above about flats is erroneous, because a proper drip loop give you sufficient slack to remove a wheel.

I agree that you shouldn't need to disconnect to fix a flat, but connectors are useful during assembly, major maintenance, and of course swapping/testing components.

The main problem of the OP is controller settings which are just wasting battery capacity. I don't know what wind the motor is, but unless it's a 5 turn, which almost no one uses, it can't handle those phase currents. Justin tested a 9x7 and it saturated at phase amps of 70A, so even that high is really too high. Running your phase current limits anywhere near stator saturation creates tremendous amounts of heat, and is the primary reason people burn up motors, halls, or wiring.

How does someone test for stator saturation amperage? I've read battery amps times 2.5 = max phase amps as a good estimate. The default configuration files provided by Lyen for the 12FET and 18FET specify 30 battery amps and 80 phase amps. Regardless of motor, the Lyen controllers default config are capable of more amps than the provided phase connectors can handle.

In any case, I'm genuinely interested in your insight as far as stator saturation and controller configuration.

 

[alsmith]

Add me to the list of problems at those connectors. For me it was just on one phase, but it had burned the plastic insulation away exposing the metal of the connector. Lucky- if it had been 2 or 3 of those phase connections there could easily have been a short. My choice is between the 75A powerpoles and the 4mm connectors.

 

[migueralliart]

I've never had an issue with wires melting like that .. but then again I always change my connectors to andersons.

Lately I've been thinking about using bullets for phases since that is easier to then wrap around braided sleeving but we'll see.

 

[cal3thousand]

Another vote for genuine Andersons here. Genuine is important for these things; Don't cheap out!

 

[alsmith]

Here's my 'incident' with a spade connector on one phase line.

 

[John in CR]

I agree that you shouldn't need to disconnect to fix a flat, but connectors are useful during assembly, major maintenance, and of course swapping/testing components.

Soldering 2 wires together is easier than soldering connectors to each. You obviously don't hard wire until the end and you're sure the wiring is correct. What major maintenance, since ebikes shouldn't require maintenance of the drive system?...You'd need to plan future removal more than twice (twice is easy to just cut and resolder), before you come out ahead with connectors.

... I've read battery amps times 2.5 = max phase amps as a good estimate. The default configuration files provided by Lyen for the 12FET and 18FET specify 30 battery amps and 80 phase amps.

That ebike myth was started by someone too lazy or too stupid to experiment with enough different setting to realize how incorrect it is. Then he shared it on the forum and as a direct result many people have burned up controllers and motors unnecessarily. Motor/controller combinations are different and no single setting or relationship can be good for all.

MWKeefer shared his insights regarding the battery/phase current limit relationship years ago in a thread about Block Time, and since I started following it I haven't looked back. Using his method I was able to tune a 3.5kw rated hubbie to 30kw with battery current limited to 425A and phase current 550A. I also haven't burned a controller since adopting MWKeefer's methodology, and I run hubmotors at higher power than anyone I know of.

 

[kifukarider]

Soldering 2 wires together is easier than soldering connectors to each. You obviously don't hard wire until the end and you're sure the wiring is correct. What major maintenance, since ebikes shouldn't require maintenance of the drive system?...You'd need to plan future removal more than twice (twice is easy to just cut and resolder), before you come out ahead with connectors.

So far I've disconnected the motor/controller to: do cable management improvements, test out a new controller, swap out controllers, and swap motors. I've never crossed my wires, but that would be another immediate benefit of having connectors. I'm glad your system works for you though.

MWKeefer shared his insights regarding the battery/phase current limit relationship years ago in a thread about Block Time, and since I started following it I haven't looked back. Using his method I was able to tune a 3.5kw rated hubbie to 30kw with battery current limited to 425A and phase current 550A. I also haven't burned a controller since adopting MWKeefer's methodology, and I run hubmotors at higher power than anyone I know of.

This post looks like valuable information http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18675#p272438. For everyone's convenience, here are all of MWKeefer's posts regarding block time http://endless-sphere.com/forums/se...&sr=posts&keywords=block+time&author_id=12847 and what I believe is the full thread referenced http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18675.

So far the votes are:

• DAND214 4mm bullets
• Philistine 6mm bullets
• shorza 4mm bullets
• dogman 45A Anderson Powerpoles
• Ypedal 45A Anderson Powerpoles
• ZOMGVTEK 45A Anderson Powerpoles
• itchynackers >=75A Anderson Powerpoles
• wojtek XT150
• Beavinator 75A Anderson Powerpoles
• kifukarider 6.5mm bullets
• John in CR solder the wires (no connectors)
• alsmith 75A Anderson Powerpole or 4mm bullets
• migueralliart Anderson Powerpole
• cal3thousand Anderson Powerpole

Summary:

• 8 Anderson Powerpole
  • 5 45A
  • 3 75A
• 5 Bullet connectors
  • 3 4mm
  • 1 6mm
  • 1 6.5mm
• 1 XT150
• 1 Solder the wires