22P vs 29E for BPM offroad

Antenor

100 W
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I will install a 36v and 22A electric kit, BPM motor.

My question is whether a 14A battery with 22P is enough. It is the battery that comes included in the Kit.

Will it be better to buy a separate battery with 29E cells?

It is for a mountain bike, and will be used in an area with large gradients, so it will be expected some resort to the accelerator :)

Thanks in advance for any help you can give
 
Hello,

we might need some more details about the motor, controller and battery. Are you sure it is a 22P battery? Is 14A the maximum current rating for the battery? Do you have a link?

If you will be on the throttle all the time; you can bet you will need the battery to deliver the the motor's maxim power rating.
 
This is the kit
http://www.ciclotekstore.com/b2c/producto/9822183/1/kit-bpm-lcd5-b-o-s-bateria-bs-36-v-14-5-ah-

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That kit would be ok for light trail riding, but not for serious off roading(like mountain bike trails). Climbing hills takes LOT's of power and LOT'S of battery capacity.
22 Amps on 36 Volts isn't much power, even for a BPM. There really isn't any reason to use a 36 V pack these days.
And as usual, these genaric kits don't say what the motor speed range is, a critical issue.
The really climb hills, you need aT least a 2500 Watt hub motor or a mid-drive.
 
The speed of the motor should be 260 rpm.
I know it's not very strong but I only need assist . I previously had a 36v 17a rear motor and it worked well for me. I had also a bbs02 and didn't like the way it push me instead or helping me.

The 22p battery is adequate for the kit, or should I go for a 29e or better?

A 36v battery is because is cheaper and is the one that the kit acept. Unfortunately no 48v option on the kit and I am not confidant enough to make my own build

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Antenor said:
The 22p battery is adequate for the kit, or should I go for a 29e or better?
If you can, go for a battery with Samsung 30Q cells. I'm running a 25A controller and swapped from a 29E pack to a 30Q pack. The 30Q's are way way better for performance. The voltage sag is much less and I feel 30Q's are better suited for higher powered set-ups such are yours.
 
At 36v it's for street or mainly flat trail. Dirt hills or sand or lugging an electric motor will melt the motor an or trip you batteries bms. Even steep paved hills can melt or trip bms. If in question get off your bike put your hand on the motor and take it's temp.
 
Forget both batteries. Fine for around the flat streets. Get newer cells. I'd go 30Q if getting off the beaten path.
EM3ev.com

http://em3ev.com/product/mac-kit-36v-frame-battery-900w-max/

17Ah battery! MJ1 or lower Ah 33G
 
It's a rear motor kit.

Why 36v battery is horst for the motor? If the power is lower, it will have less heat generated , right?
In severe conditions it will take long to overheat ...or am I mistaked?

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Antenor said:
It's a rear motor kit.

Why 36v battery is horst for the motor? If the power is lower, it will have less heat generated , right?
In severe conditions it will take long to overheat ...or am I mistaked?

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I run on 20A controller with very good results. I like the cell for a 36v motor. A good reliable battery. One set is in 4th season. Very reliable. I charge to 80-90%. Good value and price. I'd use againfor 15-20A controller.
 
Antenor said:
It's a rear motor kit.

Why 36v battery is horst for the motor? If the power is lower, it will have less heat generated , right?
In severe conditions it will take long to overheat ...or am I mistaked?

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You are mistaken.

The most important law concerning the heating of hub motors is;

Never allow the climbing speed fall below 1/2 of the "No-load" motor speed. This would roughly be the top over-the-road speed on level ground w/ no wind. When the climbing speed falls below 1/2 the no-load speed, more heat is being generated in the windings than is being converted into locomotion.

Although a more powerful system will have a higher top speed, and consequencly, a higher 1/2 climbing speed. it is better able to maintain a higher avg. speed up the hill, shortening the time climbing and the timethe motor is producing large amounts of heat.
 
motomech said:
You are mistaken.
The most important law concerning the heating of hub motors is;
Never allow the climbing speed fall below 1/2 of the "No-load" motor speed. This would roughly be the top over-the-road speed on level ground w/ no wind. When the climbing speed falls below 1/2 the no-load speed, more heat is being generated in the windings than is being converted into locomotion.

The above only applies when you ride at full throttle and don't pedal significantly.
The key is to use the right amount of assist and never let the motor do most of the work when things get steep.
If you pedal normally only use 100-150W power from the motor, you won't overheat the motor even at 7mph and 12% climb.
36V is the right voltage for what OP is after, no reason to go higher.
I used a 2kg front motor (Q100H 328rpm) for my recent 900km road trip.
The thing would top out at 25mph. I did several big climbs at 7-12mph and the motor never really got hot.
 
You said exactly what I was going to write :)

What the motomech said makes all the sense in a bike more motorcycle type (which will be another project that I still intend to do).
But for the current situation of this project, and taking into account that my zone has technical rails, with steep climbs, stones, roots and other obstacles to achieve great speeds to climb is not easy and is not for lack of power, it is even by type of trails.

Even in this project, I seriously thought whether I should go for a BPM or before for a lighter engine, to have less impact on the dynamics of the bike ... but since I already had a 36v 3 17A, I now wanted something with more torque (to try) .

Now as the BPM has a higher power, it was important for the battery to accompany this increase, so when using the acelerator has a proper response and do not immediately lower the battery voltage.

Although more expensive, I am inclined to Panasonic GA cells..thought to be more suitable, considering that I wanted a lightweight battery, so with less amps available.

GAs in 14A are about 2kg...what is excelent power/height ratio

The BPM is code 240, by the away


Should I make the extra investment from 29E to Ga, or 29E is good enough ?
 
miuan said:
motomech said:
You are mistaken.
The most important law concerning the heating of hub motors is;
Never allow the climbing speed fall below 1/2 of the "No-load" motor speed. This would roughly be the top over-the-road speed on level ground w/ no wind. When the climbing speed falls below 1/2 the no-load speed, more heat is being generated in the windings than is being converted into locomotion.

The above only applies when you ride at full throttle and don't pedal significantly.
The key is to use the right amount of assist and never let the motor do most of the work when things get steep.
If you pedal normally only use 100-150W power from the motor, you won't overheat the motor even at 7mph and 12% climb.
36V is the right voltage for what OP is after, no reason to go higher.
I used a 2kg front motor (Q100H 328rpm) for my recent 900km road trip.
The thing would top out at 25mph. I did several big climbs at 7-12mph and the motor never really got hot.
Having participated in various sports over my lifetime, there have been occassions when I have been able to interact w/ athletes at the highest level. It's these times that us mere mortals become greatly humbled. One thinks they are pretty good, only to realize there are people that are at a level that you didn't even realize exsited.
I would submit that, you Sir, are at such a high level of cycling, that your experiences, interesting as they are, are irrelevant in regards to the "1/2 climbing speed rule" as it applies to the vast majority of riders.
Plugging your numbers into the Ebike CA sim, we see that @ 7mph on a 12% hill, the rider would be contributing 300 Watts. How many riders here can reach 300 Watts, let alone maintain 300 Watts? Or do this during a 900 Km trip?
We already know from your history of posts that you can reach top speeds on a single mini-motor that surpass the rest of us(except maybe crossbreak)by 4 to 5 mph.
Not questioning your experiences in any way here, just saying that when the rider can approach the motor power level on a 1 to 1 basis, the rider to powered system interface is very different from what the rest of us experience.
 
Antenor said:
You said exactly what I was going to write :)

What the motomech said makes all the sense in a bike more motorcycle type (which will be another project that I still intend to do).
But for the current situation of this project, and taking into account that my zone has technical rails, with steep climbs, stones, roots and other obstacles to achieve great speeds to climb is not easy and is not for lack of power, it is even by type of trails.

Even in this project, I seriously thought whether I should go for a BPM or before for a lighter engine, to have less impact on the dynamics of the bike ... but since I already had a 36v 3 17A, I now wanted something with more torque (to try) .

Now as the BPM has a higher power, it was important for the battery to accompany this increase, so when using the acelerator has a proper response and do not immediately lower the battery voltage.

Although more expensive, I am inclined to Panasonic GA cells..thought to be more suitable, considering that I wanted a lightweight battery, so with less amps available.

GAs in 14A are about 2kg...what is excelent power/height ratio

The BPM is code 240, by the away


Should I make the extra investment from 29E to Ga, or 29E is good enough ?
I am a little reluctant to respond to your post because I think maybe we are having some language difficulties. In your first post, you wrote;
It is for a mountain bike, and will be used in an area with large gradients,....
I took this to mean climbing steep hills on a hub motor, especially since steep hills are the single biggest obstacle to serious trail riding on said hub motor. By "serious hills", I am talking about hill that are difficult to walk up without scrambling up on "all fours". Take away momentum by not being able to "get a run at it", and one is not going to get very far on 22Amps/36Volts.
All this talk of "stones, rocks and technical rails" is just dancing around the issue, for they don't stop one in his tracks, steep hills do.
What the motomech said makes all the sense in a bike more motorcycle type
At what point by adding a motor and batteries does a mountain bike starts to become more of a "motorcycle type" and less a mountain bike type? I would submit that once a 5 Kg. chunk of metal is placed in the rear whl., that point has been crossed. My experience from riding a a large geared hub motor off road, is that I rely more on the motor than my legs and the more power the better. Up to the point where traction becomes a problem, and that is where 2WD comes into play.
So you are contemplating going the inverse, using a smaller "assist motor" and letting the legs to carry the load and using the motor when needed. I have tried that, and for me at least, I found myself wanting the motor to have more input. I guess the soundness of this approach is a function of the rider's fitness level.
I may have made this way work 20 years ago, but at 66, I need to ask more of the motor.
I would also contend that anthing a hub motor can do on 36 Volts, it can do better on 48 V.
I think the bottom line here is, for serious off-roading, a mid-drive is the way to go.
 
motomech said:
Plugging your numbers into the Ebike CA sim, we see that @ 7mph on a 12% hill, the rider would be contributing 300 Watts. How many riders here can reach 300 Watts, let alone maintain 300 Watts? Or do this during a 900 Km trip?

Let me preface this by saying that my daily town ride is a 3k MXUS 4T with Sabvoton at 20S lipo. I do merely faux pedal that bike because that is how such a bike is ridden no matter how hard I try. The road bike with Q100 however is another story altogether.
I admit that I do bicycle racing locally, although I am by no means a top athlete. Most of my climbs were planned for the 1st half of each day so I was quite fresh. I didn't really have means of measuring the gradient, power or average speed, and most were under 12%, but what I mean is, at almost any speed or gradient, you can still use your tiny motor for assist as long as you don't throttle it up to the overheat zone. For a less fit rider, that would mean climbing said 12% slope at 5.6mph, getting 146W power from the motor and 170W from pedaling. For many, 170W is still a lot, but it can be done on smooth road. Less so in difficult technical terrain.
Now this simulation is made with a standard low torque Q100. Remember there is the 201 and 260rpm motor, which is geared for lower speed and more torque, so you can climb a 12% hill even with more sustainable pedaling.
 
I understand the logic and it was probably me who was not clear enough on what I intend and what are my conditions.

I am 39 years old and I am fit. Not at the level of athletes who train daily, but I have sufficient conditions to accompany them at half speed :)

I have previously had a 36v and 17A kit that the only fault I had was the low speed because it only reached 25km / h. Then I had a BBS02 36v 25A, but I never felt adapted to the kit, especially on offroad, where I felt being pulled by the kit, eventually having little control and this did not please me. It also had that characteristic of passing from PAS to the trothle with a cut of the engine that left me hanging on some climbs, ending up harming more than helping.

So, as I liked the first kit, the idea was to have something with more power without however ceasing to feel that I drive a bicycle.

In a next project I would like to go into a higher power situation using a downhill base and then the more power the better.

In this project, I have as conditioning factors the budget that I intend affordable (hence the 36v for the battery), and my lack of knowledge to make a kit to measure (from there go to situations where the complete kit already comes).

That said, I value all the contributions, since you have an experience superior to mine and are helping me in the best possible decision within what I intend and my conditioning factors.
 
Right, you are wishing for a hub motor-based off-road bike that retains as much bicycle feel as possible.
But first, let's talk Volts.
When looking at a system, either street or trail, I first look at the low-speed requirements(what hills I will encounter)and pick the motor speed range suitable. Then, I pick the Volts to attain the desired top speed.
In general, for a given top speed, a low-speed motor run on higher Volts will be more efficient than a high-speedmotor run on lower Volts.
If the bike is to be used on bike paths only and do not need to go faster than 18 mph, I would likely(and have)choose 36 Volts.
But a mini motor in general street riding, has a narrow range of speeds, so if I can make that speed range wider without paying too great a cost, I will do so.
The true cost of Volts-
I use mostly LiPoly and occassionly Li-Ion, so the monetary difference is not much. While a fixed amount of $$$ may buy more Ah capacity, the total energy (W/hr.s) is not much different.
But there are costs other than financial-
48 Volts- not much cost going from 36V to 48V. Most controllers work. More cells, BMS becomes a little more complex.
52Volts-many controller will not work.
Above 52V-heavier gauge wire, better connectors, main fuse, pre-charge circuit, even more complex BMS
For mini-motors, much above 52 Volts and the Law of Diminishing Returns start to interject. Small windings start to become saturated. And of course, smaller motor have more restrictive power handling capability. As Volts go up, Amps must come down.
For me, 48 Volts is the ideal because the 48 V controller's LVC of 42V = 3.65 Cell Voltage, perfect.
I way I see it, there are two different ways to approach a hub driven off-road bike.
1)Single larger geared rear mount
2)Two small geared motors in 2WD configuration.
Both have pluses and minuses, the major ones are;
The rider can use the single more powerful rear motor to lift the frt. of the bike to climb ledges, rocks, down trees, etc. Down-sides; Unsprung weight, wheel durability and traction.
2WD- both Dave(D8veh) and I have built 2WD's using the small Q100 201H motors and they work well. The are lite enough (2Kg. each) that they do not effect handling much. Depending on the type of power differenial control, traction can be good to outstanding. Downsides; A single motor with the same Wattage as the combined 2WD will be more powerful (faster) and, as I mentions, not being able to loft frt. of bike.
There is a third option, the 2-speed Xiongda. Interesting, but they have had some issuses and they are very wide. There is currently a thread going about them.
Anyhow, for what's it's worth, that's my take on Volts and hub motors for off-road.
If I was to to build a new "motorcycle type" off-road hubbie, I think I would spend the extra money and go with the Mac over the BPM so I could run something like 52V/40A. With that much power, the CST feature is not really needed because one will only be shifting a few gears, unless, of course, the system goes down :roll:
 
Let me correct some information:
motomech said:
low-speed motor run on higher Volts will be more efficient than a high-speedmotor run on lower Volts
This myth has been beaten to death long time ago. As long as the copper fill and total watts are the same, you end up with equal efficiency/power/torque. The only difference is that when using the same phase wiring, you may end up losing a couple watts tops with the faster motor. Influence on motor overheating is close to none because the section inside the motor is just a few inches long. This assumes that proper battery voltage and controller mosfets are used for the desired speed. In my recent road bike build I used 37V battery and changed the mosfets to IRFB3006 which are rated for 60 volts and have 2.1 mOhm RDS. Do not use a small 6fet controller with 100V fets at 36V, it will overheat easily with a fast enough motor.
Remember most producion e-bikes use 36V battery for a reason. And they do not overheat.
 
Now I have a person that does battery's and he as a good price for 52v 14a ga. Reading the posts I am thinking that maybe I should go for 48v so I don't have issues with controllers not working with 52v.
Today I went for a ride nearby and I made a 400m high diferencial . I went with a normal bike with a friend with a bbs02. Men...I missed the electric power.

Looking back to the speeds that we can achive for riding, probably 36v is enough to my bike...more than that I would need a downhill bike to use the extra speed...

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I've been playing around for a while with the ebikes.ca simulator and really, if I'm reading the results well, the 48v engine seems to be more efficient.

If you compare the BPM at 36v and 48v side by side, as soon as you accelerate less on the 48v system, for the same speed and incline, the 48v system takes longer to heat up.

Am I seeing the thing well?
 
You must be doing something wrong.
To eliminate modeling errors, set custom battery and controller. Enter voltages 36V for system A and 48V for system B. Enter currents 32A for system A and 24A for system B. Enter battery resistances to 0.03ohm for system A and 0.04ohm for system B, then enter controller resistances to 0.003ohm for system A and 0.004ohm for system B, to simulate a scenario with equally dimensioned 36 and 48V power systems.
Now enter your throttle and grade setting. You will see that both graphs are very similar, the 36V one having a very slight total system efficiency (mtr power / battery power) edge thanks to higher PWM cycle. Above 220rpm at full throttle the graphs diverge, as the 36V system transitions into block commutation due to speed limiting of motor's back EMF.
Finally, if you use different motors for each system, i.e. a 2806 for 36V and 2808 for 48V system, the graphs will be nearly identical, with just a hint of speed difference in the end, and the 48V system being a bit more efficient thanks to more copper fill (64 vs 60 strands of copper).
 
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