My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
robwalley1963   10 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robwalley1963 » Aug 16 2019 3:00am

jeron wrote:
Aug 15 2019 5:05pm
robwalley1963 wrote:
Aug 15 2019 11:39am
jeron wrote:
Aug 14 2019 6:03pm
The throttle should work from standstill
I have a recent Frey HT1000 with the Ultra and my throttle doesn't work unless its moving either (don't have to be pedalling, just registering a speed). Checked all the settings using the config application from the PC against my BBS02 settings (apart from torque page) and seem the same, maybe a restriction because of the power??
My AM1000 is 1month old and i have full power on the throttle from a standstill.. we can compare settings from the Bafang software?
garyal1 wrote:
Aug 15 2019 8:31am
This week the Rohloff is getting installed....I would save the money and go with the stock Shimano package. then once you receive the bike upgrade it to Rohloff! :mrgreen:
Keep us posted! my next upgrade is also a Rohloff.
Throttle settings - 11,42,Current,9,By Display's Command,5 (Exactly the same as by working from stop BBS02)

barbarossa   10 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Aug 16 2019 6:49am

robwalley1963 wrote:
Aug 16 2019 3:00am
jeron wrote:
Aug 15 2019 5:05pm
robwalley1963 wrote:
Aug 15 2019 11:39am
jeron wrote:
Aug 14 2019 6:03pm
The throttle should work from standstill
I have a recent Frey HT1000 with the Ultra and my throttle doesn't work unless its moving either (don't have to be pedalling, just registering a speed). Checked all the settings using the config application from the PC against my BBS02 settings (apart from torque page) and seem the same, maybe a restriction because of the power??
My AM1000 is 1month old and i have full power on the throttle from a standstill.. we can compare settings from the Bafang software?



Keep us posted! my next upgrade is also a Rohloff.
Throttle settings - 11,42,Current,9,By Display's Command,5 (Exactly the same as by working from stop BBS02)
that is really strange. perhaps we have to combine the settings ? mmhh… i added printscreens of my settings for all tabs, which also includes (the almost complete) switchoff of Bafangs "afterburner" and better torque settings. also cutoff voltage is set for 48V battery (controller takes the voltage under load for cutoff, in my case i have more amps than normal so voltage drop is higher than normal, i took 39V=13x3V which should be ok). of course i would be interested in your settings :o
Attachments
basic.JPG
basic.JPG (78.45 KiB) Viewed 640 times
pedal assist.JPG
pedal assist.JPG (73.83 KiB) Viewed 640 times
throttle.JPG
throttle.JPG (48 KiB) Viewed 640 times
torque.JPG
torque.JPG (130.52 KiB) Viewed 640 times

barbarossa   10 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Aug 16 2019 6:59am

… with these setting the throttle works in all PAS-levels, always full power/current, also from a standstill, except for PAS level "0". older controller v1.3

robwalley1963   10 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robwalley1963 » Aug 16 2019 12:05pm

Ignore my torque settings, these are set to mimic cadence only just like the BBS range, can't do torque assist with my lung condition. Works like a charm, but not on the DPC-18 V3 display

Rest looks similar and certainly nothing to justify the lack of throttle without an active speed sensor. Hardware version is 1.5, maybe its been disabled in the firmware???

I assume the throttle is fed 5v and with throttle off it's variable resistor is set to max and as you slide or rotate, the voltage rises towards 5v, hence the low and high settings for the throttle. I might try this lower than 11, maybe 1 or 2, see if the movement range extends.

Not bothersome just yet, not been stuck in the mud though.
Attachments
Frey HT1000 Config.pdf
(267.85 KiB) Downloaded 35 times

barbarossa   10 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Aug 16 2019 12:42pm

robwalley1963 wrote:
Aug 16 2019 12:05pm
Rest looks similar and certainly nothing to justify the lack of throttle without an active speed sensor. Hardware version is 1.5, maybe its been disabled in the firmware???

I assume the throttle is fed 5v and with throttle off it's variable resistor is set to max and as you slide or rotate, the voltage rises towards 5v, hence the low and high settings for the throttle. I might try this lower than 11, maybe 1 or 2, see if the movement range extends.
yeah, that looks almost equal. so finally lack of throttle form a standstill might be the firmware/controller version.

throttle has of course a safety mechanism : 0V (or some low voltage) or 5V (short circuit, or a little lower) will do nothing, only between defined voltages throttle will start/work. chosen the low voltage too low motor will spin continuously (in theory). but i think 10 might be ok. the highest max voltage is 42 (4.2V) i think. i use a smaller range (a little smaller). I never checked voltage range of my third party throttle but it works like a charme.
Last edited by barbarossa on Aug 16 2019 1:43pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Deafcat   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Deafcat » Aug 16 2019 12:59pm

cscscs wrote:
Aug 15 2019 11:03pm
Deafcat wrote:
Aug 13 2019 11:17pm
There are actually two one-way clutches in the Ultra motor, a three-pawl freewheel for pedal input, and a one-way roller clutch or sprag clutch for the chainring output shaft. I've heard of that output clutch wearing or failing due to too large of a chainring and bad riding (too high of momentary torque loads), failure of the pedal freewheel only possible from too much pedal load as mentioned.

I've yet to damage either of them, though I'd like to replace the pedal freewheel with a sprag roller clutch to get rid of the noise... Onyx hubs on the bike so the only freewheel noise comes from motor. Maybe something I will re-engineer on next disassembly, worth it to have the parts drawn up anyway for community reference.
I've been thinking of retrofitting a sprag in replacement of the freewheel - I'll be interested in assessing the feasibility of doing that - let's collaborate on that.
Be nice to replace both the freewheel and the one way clutch with better parts. Misumi has NSK, NTN and house brand components which all look like drawn cup variety, McMaster also has some expensive options (proper sprags).

Sprags are more expensive to manufacture but obviously perform better compared to drawn cup roller clutches, which use ridges in the ID of the bearing housing to facilitate the torque transmission in one direction. In a sprag clutch, the moving elements themselves perform the torque locking, but they require both the exterior housing, and the inner shaft, to be strong hardened steel with no give... Hence the price hike.

Example part from McMaster to put into perspective, $160 USD for a sprag clutch max rated for 165 ft/lb, 16mm wide with an OD of 62mm.

jeron   10 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by jeron » Aug 16 2019 5:18pm

robwalley1963 wrote:
Aug 16 2019 12:05pm
Ignore my torque settings, these are set to mimic cadence only just like the BBS range, can't do torque assist with my lung condition. Works like a charm, but not on the DPC-18 V3 display

Rest looks similar and certainly nothing to justify the lack of throttle without an active speed sensor. Hardware version is 1.5, maybe its been disabled in the firmware???

I assume the throttle is fed 5v and with throttle off it's variable resistor is set to max and as you slide or rotate, the voltage rises towards 5v, hence the low and high settings for the throttle. I might try this lower than 11, maybe 1 or 2, see if the movement range extends.

Not bothersome just yet, not been stuck in the mud though.
I have HW v1.5 ... so no that's not the problem.

I am really curious now!!

cscscs   1 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by cscscs » Aug 16 2019 7:45pm

Deafcat wrote:
Aug 16 2019 12:59pm
cscscs wrote:
Aug 15 2019 11:03pm
Deafcat wrote:
Aug 13 2019 11:17pm
There are actually two one-way clutches in the Ultra motor, a three-pawl freewheel for pedal input, and a one-way roller clutch or sprag clutch for the chainring output shaft. I've heard of that output clutch wearing or failing due to too large of a chainring and bad riding (too high of momentary torque loads), failure of the pedal freewheel only possible from too much pedal load as mentioned.

I've yet to damage either of them, though I'd like to replace the pedal freewheel with a sprag roller clutch to get rid of the noise... Onyx hubs on the bike so the only freewheel noise comes from motor. Maybe something I will re-engineer on next disassembly, worth it to have the parts drawn up anyway for community reference.
I've been thinking of retrofitting a sprag in replacement of the freewheel - I'll be interested in assessing the feasibility of doing that - let's collaborate on that.
Be nice to replace both the freewheel and the one way clutch with better parts. Misumi has NSK, NTN and house brand components which all look like drawn cup variety, McMaster also has some expensive options (proper sprags).

Sprags are more expensive to manufacture but obviously perform better compared to drawn cup roller clutches, which use ridges in the ID of the bearing housing to facilitate the torque transmission in one direction. In a sprag clutch, the moving elements themselves perform the torque locking, but they require both the exterior housing, and the inner shaft, to be strong hardened steel with no give... Hence the price hike.

Example part from McMaster to put into perspective, $160 USD for a sprag clutch max rated for 165 ft/lb, 16mm wide with an OD of 62mm.
I for one would be willing to spend $160 on a sprag to replace the pedal-crank freewheel; but that would not likely be the only cost. I'm curious about the feasibility - I'm not sure how the ultra freewheel is assembled - I'm guessing the outer element of the freewheel is pressed into the primary gear?? If that assumption is correct, then the questions are: 1) Can the freewheel be pulled out? 2) Is there a suitable sprag available that will fit the ID of the gear and the OD of the pedal crank shaft? And last but not least, a means of locking the sprag to the inner and outer elements would need to be provided

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Sinbord1981 » Aug 17 2019 3:43am

When cleaning out the old grease from the Ultra motor did you use a solvent, petrol, paraffin etc to clean the gear wheels? How much new grease is needed to fully pack it out sufficiently? They seem to come in 380g tubes so is one enough or worth getting a couple? I’ve got the AM1000 - is it easy to drop the motor and crack it open without having to disconnect any cables? I am going to do this soon but need to make sure I’ve got all required tools and know what I’m doing first. Probably wait until I’ve got 1,000 miles on it before doing so. Thanks.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Sinbord1981 » Aug 17 2019 12:15pm

Guys I popped the plastic cover off the left-hand-side of my motor to expose the cables and found three unconnected connectors. Any idea what these are? I think the one I'm holding is the front light cable having watched one of the BackCountry motor strip videos on YouTube. I don't have the integrated front light, so that explains why that wouldn't be connected. Theother two with white cables come from the motor. Any ideas? The bike rides great, so it's not as if there are any symptoms of a problem.

Image
Last edited by Sinbord1981 on Aug 17 2019 1:05pm, edited 1 time in total.

barbarossa   10 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Aug 17 2019 1:03pm

Sinbord1981 wrote:
Aug 17 2019 12:15pm
Guys I popped the plastic cover off the left-hand-side of my motor to expose the cables and found three unconnected connectors. Any idea what these are? A couple of them (the top two in the pictutre) look like they want to be plugged together. I think these might be the rear speed senor and the other (lower) one could be the front light plug having watched one of the BackCountry motor strip videos on YouTube. If the disconnected one is the rear speed sensor what would be the likely symptoms when riding the bike as it seems pretty much perfect to me anyways.

Image
yes, blue ones are for your front light (6V) - default in case of not ordered with light option: not connected. yellow one could be rear light / battery communication cable / gear sensor - i am not sure, might be one of the 2 plugs i dont use at all, my favorite : battery communication cable. but yellow one is not your speed sensor. without speed sensor you wouldnt see your speed at the dispaly and controller would not deliver any power after a while. in addition display would also return a failure code after a while. speed sensor is "male" coming from the motor and has 3 pins (i hope i correctly remember) :wink:
Attachments
bafang_wire_diagram.JPG
bafang_wire_diagram.JPG (227.25 KiB) Viewed 515 times
Last edited by barbarossa on Aug 17 2019 1:22pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sinbord1981   10 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Sinbord1981 » Aug 17 2019 1:14pm

barbarossa wrote:
Aug 17 2019 1:03pm
yes, blue ones are for your front light (6V) - default in case of not ordered with light option: not connected. yellow one could be rear light / battery communication cable / gear sensor - i am not sure, might be one of the 2 plugs i dont use at all, my favorite : battery communictaion cable. but yellow one is not your speed sensor. without speed sensor you wouldnt see your speed at the dispaly and controller would not deliver any power after a while. in addition display would also return a failure code after a while. speed sensor is "male" coming from the motor and has 3 pins (i hope i correctly remember) :wink:
Thanks Barbarossa. Looking at the wiring schematic I think they are probably the front and rear light connectors (I have neither) and possibly the battery communication connector as battery info doesn't seem to be integrated on the display. Needless to say I won't be connected any of them together or anything to them! Speed sensor is definitely connected properly as I just traced the wires. I was only looking as I will drop the motor at some stage so I can re-grease the gears. I think I should be able to do it with the bike upside down, unbolt the motor and then just lift it a little out of the mount in order to be able to get the side plate off. It will save taking the motor out completely and disconnecting any cables.

barbarossa   10 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Aug 17 2019 2:00pm

Sinbord1981 wrote:
Aug 17 2019 1:14pm
I think I should be able to do it with the bike upside down, unbolt the motor and then just lift it a little out of the mount in order to be able to get the side plate off. It will save taking the motor out completely and disconnecting any cables.
Hi Sinbord1981 ! Unfortunately a bad idea. that might be one of the methods to really damage your motor☹️ I highly recommend to separate motor from frame. Then putting it in eg your hobby room and with enough light and calmly you can go on...

barbarossa   10 mW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by barbarossa » Aug 17 2019 2:09pm

Sinbord1981 wrote:
Aug 17 2019 3:43am
When cleaning out the old grease from the Ultra motor did you use a solvent, petrol, paraffin etc to clean the gear wheels? How much new grease is needed to fully pack it out sufficiently? They seem to come in 380g tubes so is one enough or worth getting a couple? I’ve got the AM1000 - is it easy to drop the motor and crack it open without having to disconnect any cables? I am going to do this soon but need to make sure I’ve got all required tools and know what I’m doing first. Probably wait until I’ve got 1,000 miles on it before doing so. Thanks.
380g should be enough for more than one greasing. I did not use any solvents except for some alcohol for the gasket & sealing areas at the end. anyways i waited a few hundred km until I knew everything is ok with the motor before I opened it. Warranty is of course lost - or let’s say: to be fair I would never claim for warranty after opening the motor. I highly recommend to separate motor from frame. I used some tape for all unused plugs.

FaraOn   1 µW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FaraOn » Aug 17 2019 3:43pm

barbarossa wrote:
Aug 13 2019 1:03pm
Deafcat wrote:
Aug 13 2019 11:25am
Mobilith SHC 100 is better than Mobil 28 and more readily available (Mobil28 is essentially obsolete).

It works beautifully in the Ultra motor, and will work anywhere you use lithium-synthetic grease for higher speed applications, excellent in the bearings and gears alike... Will not harm nylon or composites, pretty much a perfect all-rounder, a true supreme-performance grease.

Bafangs black moly/lithium grease on the other hand, is bottom shelf trash, often drying up and exhibiting mild corrosion on the ferrous parts... Get that junk out of there ASAP if you want performance and reliability (I spent an hour getting every last trace of it out!)


Note on Ultra motor removal for service: It's quite a bit easier to do it upside down! The wires are easier to handle this way. I still remove the spider etc while right way up, though.
cool tip… i already read a lot about Mobilith SHC 100. i will order it to complete my grease collection :thumb:

yeah, the motor reassembly. first time it took 3-4 hours. i have the additional problem that i also route rear brake line hose through the motor housing, i have an additional cable for my GPS tracker directly connected to the battery cable and a self made connection from the controller cable (5V+/ground/motor off) to the rear brake pressure sensor and my gearsensor incl. Higo plug. the gps tracker itself is mounted at the inner plastic motor cover. the backup GPS-battery 1000mAh lipo (in case of stolen battery, charged by the main battery) is between plastic cover/gps tracker and motor (but gps tracker and backup battery i can mount after mounting the motor). anyways i would say i have a little more cables than normal :shock: ... a lot of cables. the final trick was to bent all the controller cables and my addtional cables/plug into the space between the last two mounting holes (yellow in the picture) - perhaps the solution was so easy that i did not find it for around 3 hours :lol: . this is the only "large" place/space available even after mounting the motor. with that method it was smooth like butter. last reassembly took 15 minutes, GPS tracker/plastic cover included.
Nice,

I am also about to install the GPS tracker, I still didn't figure out the placement. Do you think you could share some more pictures? Does the GPS has enough signal?

Thank you in advance

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Sinbord1981 » Aug 18 2019 3:02am

I’ve ordered all tools and components to remove and strip the motor on my Frey AM1000 and will clean and re-grease with Mobil SHC100. I’ll video me doing it to get your feedback on my technique. I’ve also ordered a new KMC X11e chain as my chain checker tool shows the existing one is on the way out already (.75% drops all the way in but 1% side doesn’t yet) - and that’s with less than 400 miles on it! I have been playing with different sized alloy chainrings on the bike and I think that could be the problem as I think they might just be too soft material for the torque produced compared to the original Bafang one. I must hasten to add that I keep the whole drive train clean and well oiled. My bike came with 40T but ideally I’d like to get a Bafang OE 46T, which is steel, to replace the alloy 46T as I just don’t think it cuts it. Any idea where to get one? What chainring did everyone else’s Bafang motor come with as standard?

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Deafcat   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Deafcat » Aug 19 2019 4:26pm

Mine came with a 44T steel chainring, I swapped to a 50T Wolftooth narrow-wide (7075AL). Excellent so far... My stock chain also didn't have a very long life (1500km I tossed it at 0.75 wear), SRAM XX1 on currently, and Connex 11SX on deck for next swap. Box 11-46T casette. Currently at 3000km and no detectable wear by any measurement.

For the clean and regrease, I removed most of the old grease with scrapers and picks, then solvent where decent to use it, brass wire brush, methanol cleanup, then greased with SHC100 but I didn't use enough the first time... Opened it back up to pump it nice and full of it. I think you can (and should) be very generous with this grease since it flows so well.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Tjeska » Aug 20 2019 2:16am

Deafcat wrote:
Aug 19 2019 4:26pm
I think you can (and should) be very generous with this grease since it flows so well.
Is this grease very thin? Otherwise I would dare to try and order the SHC 220 or one with a higher viscosity than the SHC100?
How much miles have you done since your regrease?

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Sinbord1981 » Aug 20 2019 2:39am

Tjeska wrote:
Aug 20 2019 2:16am
Is this grease very thin? Otherwise I would dare to try and order the SHC 220 or one with a higher viscosity than the SHC100?
How much miles have you done since your regrease?
I think SHC 100 is the best one to go for from what I’ve read from others and what the manufacturer says in terms of applications. SHC is what I’ve ordered but I will check how it’s holding up after another 500 or 1,000 miles.

>> Mobilith SHC 100 is an antiwear and extreme pressure grease primarily recommended for higher speed applications such as electric motors, where reduced friction, low wear and long service life are required. It is an NLGI 2 Grade / ISO VG 100 grease with a synthetic base fluid. Its operating temperature range is -40º C* to 150º C.
>> Mobilith SHC 220 is a multi-purpose, NLGI 2 extreme pressure grease recommended for heavy-duty automotive and industrial applications. It uses an ISO VG 220 synthetic base fluid. Mobilith SHC 220 has a recommended operating temperature range of -40º C* to 150º C.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Tjeska » Aug 20 2019 5:38am

Sinbord1981 wrote:
Aug 20 2019 2:39am
Tjeska wrote:
Aug 20 2019 2:16am
Is this grease very thin? Otherwise I would dare to try and order the SHC 220 or one with a higher viscosity than the SHC100?
How much miles have you done since your regrease?
I think SHC 100 is the best one to go for from what I’ve read from others and what the manufacturer says in terms of applications. SHC is what I’ve ordered but I will check how it’s holding up after another 500 or 1,000 miles.
Ok thx, looking forward to thje results! :wink:

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by btslo » Aug 20 2019 7:59am

SHC100 is quite thick but flows well once installed.

https://i.imgur.com/1Mg4Z4f.png

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robwalley1963 » Aug 20 2019 12:02pm

Deafcat wrote:
Aug 19 2019 4:26pm
Mine came with a 44T steel chainring, I swapped to a 50T Wolftooth narrow-wide (7075AL). Excellent so far... My stock chain also didn't have a very long life (1500km I tossed it at 0.75 wear), SRAM XX1 on currently, and Connex 11SX on deck for next swap. Box 11-46T casette. Currently at 3000km and no detectable wear by any measurement.

For the clean and regrease, I removed most of the old grease with scrapers and picks, then solvent where decent to use it, brass wire brush, methanol cleanup, then greased with SHC100 but I didn't use enough the first time... Opened it back up to pump it nice and full of it. I think you can (and should) be very generous with this grease since it flows so well.
I have a Frey HT1000 and estimated clearance for a 50t is <1mm from the frame. Is it close on the AM1000 or is the chainstay very different on these models?

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Deafcat » Aug 20 2019 3:08pm

btslo wrote:
Aug 20 2019 7:59am
SHC100 is quite thick but flows well once installed.

https://i.imgur.com/1Mg4Z4f.png
Yep it's just the right consistency. the 220 would be too thick I suspect.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Tjeska » Aug 20 2019 3:21pm

Good to hear :wink:

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by sgillf » Aug 20 2019 8:34pm

Does anybody know of a good third party charger?

I tried to an XLR adapter with another charger, and it didn't work. My original charger started smoking when I plugged it in one day.

The guys at Grin (who sell the satiator) said that some chargers require a handshake before they start charging.

I have the 48V 20Ah Batter and My charger looks like this:
Image

Thanks!

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