Build with Crystalyte 4012/409 +Headway + HomeBrewMounting

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DrInnovation
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Build with Crystalyte 4012/409 +Headway + HomeBrewMounting

Post by DrInnovation » Jun 01, 2016 12:20 pm

Just got an older used Crystalyte 4012/409 dual speed rear hub and as this is my first hub-based build I have some questions.

First some expected background:
I'm 5'9", 30" inseam and 200lb and generally carry 25lb backpack with computer and stuff. My primary goal is my daily commute which is 1.6 miles up 500ft with 8 and 10% grades. Enjoy pedaling but don't want to sweat on way to work. Range is secondary (1-2 times a month I'll take it on longer trips, and often will make 2 trips in the same day). Speed is a distance tertiary goal.
Will be running with 48v 20ah (headway) which I got the in deal for the hub. Trying to keep costs low.


So first question.. anyone with much experience on these want to share any experience? (searching found almost nothing.. I did find a few old 408/4012 thread)

Second.. the motor simulator at http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html does not have any settings for either 409 or 4012.. How different are these from 408 and 4011 (which they have)?

The motor is laced in a 24" rear wheel, so my choices seem to be: get a 24" bike, get 26" bike and ride in a 26/24 configuration, get a 26" bike and and new 24" front to ride 24/24 or lace it into a 26" wheel.
Question: which would you recommend and why?

Been reading a bit at https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=64324) so I think I could do the lacing but it also seem like a lot of work/skill, especially when there are recommends to practice on a junk wheel first. If I go that way, the spoke calculator (http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc.html) shows two Cylyte 40x.. one with an offset and one without. How do I tell which I have? (Pics below)
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hub view1
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Hub View2
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Also the 24" would have slightly better hill climbing, so is added hill ability a reason to stay@24?
If using a 26" bike with 24" wheels do I run into problems with brakes?

The controller is probably circa 200X, Its 36/48v and I'm from my reading on other threads I'm guessing 20a. ( the guy I bought it from worked in the e-bike biz and said it has the older MOSFETs if that means anything). Should I upgrade it? I was thinking of adding a pedal sensor but am not sure how those connect or if I can add them to this controller/throttle. (There is a 3 pin connector not attached to anything, hall sensor connector and battery the dual motor connectors (not show). No other connectors/ports to which I could attach?
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Throttle
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Controller Box
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Switch
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Also the owner had lost the key.. so I presume if I just open up the controller I can bypass it, correct? (I wanted to open it just to ensure its clean).


The owner also threw in a second case with a brake disk attached. Said I could replace it but that it is again and needs a torque wrench.. Anyone having done this want to comment. I presume disk brakes would make using a 26" frame easier (but those bikes are more expensive..)
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Brake Cover
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Finally questions.. I'll be mounting the headway pack (16s2p) somewhere semi-permanent, and am leaning in the triangle. But that often means no or very minimal suspension. With the added weight is which is better rear with full suspension or triangle mounting?
Attachments
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Controller end with red??
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Last edited by DrInnovation on Sep 24, 2016 5:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Previous bike was a 24v Lashout 600w with RCLipos but I kept blowing the gears. I upgraded that one to a front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

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Re: Build Questions with Crystalyte 4012/409

Post by dogman dan » Jun 02, 2016 5:27 am

409/412 will be slightly slower in top speed than the 408/411. Perhaps about 3 mph slower. Power, and torque will be the same.

409 is already a pretty slow wind, so I would tend to say you can just put it in 409 mode, and leave it there. even on your steep hill. The reason to use the even slower 411 mode would be if you want to go extremely slow, such as for towing a very heavy trailer or something. 407 was the typical wind for the 400 motor, and that went about 20 mph on 36v. I think your max speed is going to be less than 20 mph with 48v.

Just you, up that hill, no sweat at all in higher speed mode, which like I said, is already slow. I'm not sure you will even have 20 mph top speed.

Unless you do get a bike with a rear disc brake, I'd say your best bet will be to lace it into 26" You can still get spokes and a rim at grin no problem. A rear wheel has the offset. this dishes the wheel so the rim is centered.

I can't see you riding in Colorado springs with nothing but a front brake, even as a temporary thing. Do it only for a short test that it all works.

The key is a simple switch that can be replaced, or you can just connect the two wires in the switch to bypass it.

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Re: Build Questions.. headway in triangle?

Post by DrInnovation » Jun 06, 2016 4:13 pm

Working on my bike upgrade. Got a old huffy blades bike (steel frame) that I'll use the base. I also have a much nicer diamondback MTB, but it has al frame. However the rear fork has an odd inset, Its not magnetic but then neither is titanium? does not make so have a special inset of al in an al frame? Any idea what the inset might be made of? if its replaceable can I just get one in steel (and would that be good enough?)
20160604_105811.jpg
Dropout
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Could I get back with that frame and a torque arm? (Do steel frame need torque arms for a 750w motor?)


Next question.. what is the largest resonable width for a trianble pack while still being able to pedal? (I'll do test for sure but looking for others with experience).

I have 48v 20ah headway 31280 pack and want to put at least part of frame in the triangle. I am thinking I sould split in into a 10h pack for daily use in the triangle, and a cond pack for fork or rack mounting when I need the added range. This will mean that the main pack will be doign 2C pulls for 5min every day. (Which from the spec seems to be okay.. though if not I'd like to hear it). With that, I need to fit 16 cells in a 13"hx19"long triangle. I was think of 3 wide (so about 4.8" wide + housing width or about 5" thick tiangle. (My current lashout is about 4.5 so I though I could handle 5 without a problem).

With that I see 4 posslbe layouts.. any feedback on these layouts? (each cell here represents 3 deep.. so 6*3 = 18 but only need 16 so one row will have only 1 deep , 2 rows will have 2 deep).
Screen Shot 2016-06-06 at 1.58.12 PM.png
layout
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If the batteries are end-to-end in the drawing I was planning to abut them with a single screw. I've seen posts with this type of design (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 35&t=50296) but wondered about the long-term reliability.

With non-square layout, Was thinking I'd make either headway condoms (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 14&t=13233) to protect edges ( using a cutting board drilled out for support in multiple point). Is shaped support in the middle of the can important or is just a protection around the ends good enough?
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Previous bike was a 24v Lashout 600w with RCLipos but I kept blowing the gears. I upgraded that one to a front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

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Re: Build Questions with Crystalyte 4012/409

Post by DrInnovation » Jun 07, 2016 10:09 am

Well I think I've found an answer my own first question from above.. that insert is a type of derailed hanger.. which is apparently often made of even software metal than the AL in the frame
http://www.bikehugger.com/post/view/rep ... eur-hanger

so probably not good for a hub motor. But they are easily replaceable. Is this something I could use with a torque arm? or should I want to cut/grind out a replacement from steel that should be durable? (I did not find many thread discussing these and torque arms).
Last edited by DrInnovation on Jun 07, 2016 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Previous bike was a 24v Lashout 600w with RCLipos but I kept blowing the gears. I upgraded that one to a front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

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Re: Build Questions with Crystalyte 4012/409

Post by Drunkskunk » Jun 07, 2016 10:43 am

Great motor! I have the 408/412 version, and it was my favorite motor until I got a Crystalyte 5404. Very oldschool now, but nothing else is as quiet.

The motor you have has no offset. That probably makes it an 8 bolt, which should mean the disk cover will fit. I did that conversion on mine, and it works great.

That silver part is a Derailed hanger. They are designed to be destroyed if you crash, so that the frame it's self won't be damaged. The usually material is annealed aluminum.

A torque arm is a different device. It would fit on over the top of the derailleur hanger, as if the hanger wasn't there. With a Crystalyte 40X motor, I recommend one on each side.

The Key is a reverse switch. The key is just a switch, and you could easily replace it with an actual switch. But it's also a way for water to get in the controller. I removed mine and filled the hole with JB Weld epoxy on the controllers I had. Not much call for reverse on a bicycle :mrgreen:
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
Monster Bike:https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=38667

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Build question..ordering for 2 nuts per side of hub motor?

Post by DrInnovation » Jun 16, 2016 12:47 pm

Drunkskunk wrote:Great motor! I have the 408/412 version, and it was my favorite motor until I got a Crystalyte 5404. Very oldschool now, but nothing else is as quiet.

...

The Key is a reverse switch. The key is just a switch, and you could easily replace it with an actual switch. But it's also a way for water to get in the controller. I removed mine and filled the hole with JB Weld epoxy on the controllers I had. Not much call for reverse on a bicycle :mrgreen:
Thanks.. I would never have guess it was a reverse switch.. I guess for a trike (for which this low a geared motor makes sense) could find that useful.

Totally different question.. went to mount it and as you can see in the pic above there are 2 nuts on each side of the hub. So what is the ordering there both on the outside of the dropout, or one on each side?
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Previous bike was a 24v Lashout 600w with RCLipos but I kept blowing the gears. I upgraded that one to a front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

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Re: Build Questions with Crystalyte 4012/409

Post by Drunkskunk » Jun 16, 2016 3:02 pm

The skinny nut goes on the inside for a normal frame. It's a 5mm spacer, and gets taken off if your frame is narrow. all other nuts go on the outside.
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
Monster Bike:https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=38667

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Re: Build Questions with Crystalyte 4012/409

Post by DrInnovation » Jun 17, 2016 8:05 am

Drunkskunk wrote:The skinny nut goes on the inside for a normal frame. It's a 5mm spacer, and gets taken off if your frame is narrow. all other nuts go on the outside.
Thanks.. I'll have to spread the frame to get it to fit even without the smaller nut.. so double nuts on the outside... nice and tight.
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Previous bike was a 24v Lashout 600w with RCLipos but I kept blowing the gears. I upgraded that one to a front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

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Re: Build Questions with Crystalyte 4012/409

Post by DrInnovation » Jun 18, 2016 2:00 pm

Not just gotta figure out the wiring.

Most important question now.. the controller has one of those 2 pin "trailer connectors" I'll probably replace with a Dean's T (or get some anderson power poles).. but it is not labeled which pin takes positive. On a trailer the part that exposed is positive so the positive on the battery side is covered. Is that the same here?

Edit: resolved by tracking grounds around.. yes it was positive from battery was the protected.

The controller has 3 pin connector for what I presume is the brakes.. any ideas on the wiring. (The brakes I've seen seem to be sold with no connectors.. just bare wires). Any easy way to debug that wiring?


Turns out on mine the "key' is for on/off and the red button is the 'reverse.foward". I hacked up a key from an old luggage key.
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Previous bike was a 24v Lashout 600w with RCLipos but I kept blowing the gears. I upgraded that one to a front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

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Headway Battery Build and BMS FIRE

Post by DrInnovation » Jun 19, 2016 7:04 pm

Well, I'm on the the battery build... I got the Hub with a 48v20ah battery (32 cells of headway 31820). Too big for what I can fit in the triangle.. so I'm splitting it into a 48v10ah pack for daily use and a 10ah add-on pack in a rear rack pelican case) which I can add extended range.
When I got it it was non-functional with one missing cell but the owner had 2 spare cells just had not dissembled/reassembled it.

For mounting in the bike, I decided a 3 wide format would be good, so its only 4.5" wide (my current bike's battery is 4.. so I know I can live with it). Went with a 6x5x6 staggered pattern (slightly less width).
It did not have any of fancy orange plastic holder and I was not paying that much for them. .. but I had an old car-top sign triangle of some softer-type of plastic that I decided to canabilize for both the battery mounts and eventually for the bike-triage cover.
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Culling plastic from old Car-top triangle
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Measured out the spacing for the cells (offset pattern) and then drilled 3/4 holes for each of the cells. The holes are slightly larger than the metal end-pieces on each cell, but most of them fit snuggly.
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Battery holder with holes drilled..
Then it was just making the pattern to make it 16S (left and right views)
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Batteries in holder, left side
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Batteries in holder, right side)
There is a hole left on one side (6+5+5 = 16), which I might cut off to better fit in the triangle.. As you can see there are BMS balancing leads on each of the connectors. I was being a bit lazy and reusing the connectors from the 20ah build.. I cut the 4x4 plates into two pieces leaving the leads on one piece. I could not get the connector out of the BMS (it was glued), so I just left them on the BMS and started building.

During the build, however, I managed to fry the BMS.. :oops: Not sure exactly what happened, I'd guess while working on it one of the unattached leads touched both the battery stack and some part of the BMS. Not just a pop.. it was instant flames.. and took me 30seconds to put it out (well 10 those I was walking the whole array outside the garage.. glad it was not lipo's next to the flame;-)
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Fried BMS side view. (can see fried resistors... and other parts)
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Fried BMS backside. (mostly blacked from the fire)
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I've looked for thread to salvage a fried BMS but it seems unlikely to be fruitful. So as a take away for anyone else doing a build.. I suggest make sure to disconnect all BMS wires build the pack, then solder them back. Shortcuts can lead to short-circuits. :roll: :!:
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Previous bike was a 24v Lashout 600w with RCLipos but I kept blowing the gears. I upgraded that one to a front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

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Putting it all together

Post by DrInnovation » Jul 30, 2016 11:27 pm

Next steps on the build was the mounting.. and final assembly.
Built a shelf from 1.5" AL angle I had lying around, notched on end to hold better against round tube. A couple of L-bracks on the bottom, with a peice of engineer wood flooring (4" planking) for the bottom and back side.
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Bottom mounting bracket
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Back view of Mounting
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Front view with controller on downtube
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Hooked up the ebrake.. the controler has a small 3pin connector (shown in a previous post). The left two pins (when pins are on the lower part of connector) are the two brake connections. I snatched a suitable connector from an old GPU fan and wired it up.

Then I mounted controller to the downtube, and used the other sides of the plastic triangle car sign to provide sides,
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With side cover
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with a bit of foam board protecting wiring from element. The plastic sides are hinged so I can easily get to the battery/controller. Custom mounted an old mil-spec connector to attach to the charger and added a dedicated switch for the lights. ( I figured out that the controller does have a switched 12v out line, on the connector with the brakes, but I light the brigher LEDs when they run at 50+ volts).
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With siding
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Had some exciting moments when I wired the connector between battery and charger backwards and broght them close to each other. the spark was large.. when trying to diagnose it it vaporized the last 1/8" of my Digital meter's probe..

Been riding a few weeks. :D Much quieter than the Lashout, much more power. A little bit of vibration when there is high torque up the hill (which is reduced if I pedal). I presume that is normal for a hub motor... is it :?:

After less than a week, batteries, which were used, were already loosing a little bit of balance at the high end.
I hand charged to balance at 3.5 but after a day or two of riding and bulk charging, many were down at 3.35 while some were at 3.6. If I rode around the block they were all at 3.3 to 3.4. Given how little top end voltage has do to with actual capacity I was not sure how important this imbalance was but, I decided to go ahead and replace the BMS, though with a minimal ebay model. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/141771638553?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT) If nothing else figured it would provide a saver LVC and top end charger balance and make it a bit more set-forget. (Right now charger is a series of 24v chargers that I have to hand adjust every time to balance current/voltage.. but will soon have a dedicated 48v lifepo4 charger.



A week or so later my new ebay $20 BMS arrived so I rewired to put it place.
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BMS
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BMS installed, side door open
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system with BMS was working fine, though still not well balanced.. but the charger was only putting out between 54-55 so could not really get many to the balance voltage of 3.5. But things were good for another week.

New taillights came in (previous were 24v.. did not like the 48v I gave them). While I added a the new lights. Had some very weird state for a while where nothing worked. No power to controller not even the lights. Started debugging and BMS lead to controller was showing only 3.6v? Very confused. BMS battery (B-) to controller (C-) was showing -49v? I was a a loss. Worried that somehow I had fried the BMS. I disassembled things a bit, removed power to BMS and still it was wonky. Finally though maybe it was in some weird logic lockout state and wanted to test various functions to see what else was bad. I tried charging (so I could debug that part of BMS board) and then it seem to return to normal. Figured it was worth reporting as I did search here to see if people had ways to "reset the BMS" or had seen these weird inverted voltages..
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Previous bike was a 24v Lashout 600w with RCLipos but I kept blowing the gears. I upgraded that one to a front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

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Re: Build with Crystalyte 4012/409 +Headway + HomeBrewMounti

Post by markz » Oct 12, 2016 8:41 pm

@DrInnovation
- Where did you buy this 4012/409 motor?

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Re: Build with Crystalyte 4012/409 +Headway + HomeBrewMounti

Post by DrInnovation » May 06, 2017 10:01 pm

sorry for the delayed response.. been a while sinceI logged on as the new build has been relatively trouble free. Only logged on as Im looking at a used motor for a second build -- the old lashout as eaten 2 more gears when being used by a lightweight friend, so I've decided that design is just toast and will get another hub for that bike (its a decent frame and battery housing..)


I bought it used from a local seller.. its probably 8-10 years old but he said it was sitting in the workshop for years..
I've only been using it in "fast mode"..
until a few weeks ago I had never tried to ride it witout pedaling .. but did once and it pulled me up the 10% grades.. It was giving a wierd vibration but pulled me up just fine.
I don't really need the flexibility or low-end torque. Might be willing to sell/trade as long as I can get a motor to replace it.
Owner of a Crystalyte 4012/409 with 10aH 16s Headway on a old huffy frame. Its not fast but it climbs my daily commute up 8% and 10% grades nicely. Previous bike was a 24v Lashout 600w with RCLipos but I kept blowing the gears. I upgraded that one to a front-drive hub with a home-built 18650-based 20ah-36v. My bigger "E-ride" is a chevy volt.

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