N.E.S.E. the no solder module

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agniusm
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N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » May 03, 2017 10:48 am

As some of you know I have been working on solder-less, weld-less design for some time, well, nearly three years with on’s and off’s, ups and downs. Recently I have finished my fourth prototype and done tests to ensure proper battery operation. The tests came out very good but I was starting to get frustrated on managing production of all the bits, logistics, purchasing bits and bobs and steps necessary to get it delivered. This all work for a single line of battery, 14S6P which would satisfy a small part of people further cut down by limited power output of 2000W.
Funny enough, after so much time spent on this design I had some eureka moment and went back to the drawing board. Now I can present my own, AMtech 18650 cell module with SNATHtech inside. I had to give it a name, N ew E ighteen S ixfifty E ncosure, NESE :).

Here we have a lineup of four modules for 3 to 6 cells in parallel. So, what’s good about that?
you don’t have to solder or weld cells anymore, that’s the key;
you can repair it on the fly;
your amp draw is theoretically limited by cell discharge power capacity.
Other points include: assembly using minimal tools (scredrivers), reusable hardware; replaceable enclosure.


I have thought of an idea to make it even better. The enclosure was designed so it was easily printable with today’s FDM technology, furthermore, because of this method of manufacturing, it was made light, yet stiff and it’s impossible to do with traditional processes, but that’s just a small part of the equation. Here it goes: i am selling all the copper/steel hardware and intellectual property. What this means, is I will be supplying all the bits that go inside the box and file that you will be printing your enclosures from on your 3D printer. If you don’t have one, perhaps a relative or friend will print them for you or in school, or in library, or through 3Dhubs and the likes. This brings several benefits.
Manufacturing cost goes way down, including logistics involved;
Shipping costs go down significally. I am talking 60% cut;
If it breaks, you print another one, no shipping cost again and it’s local;
You choose your color;
You choose the type of plastic to use;
We don’t do wasteful manufacturing where a lot of material is sculpted down, we use precisely as much material as we need by using additive decentralized manufacturing. This one fits nicely with ES spirit ;)


Also, you pay someone who’s in your country so part of the payment stays within your country and you support local guys as well. It’s a small game but never the less.
I will not bore you with tech stuff that I did on testing this method, you can find threads by me and Mr. Snath and find all relevant information there.
So here’s what you can do. You can build yourself a battery out of 18650 cells without buying different bits from China like nickel strip (and then finding out its magnetic :) ), Plastic holders, spot welders, solder, iron, all that mess. You can build whatever SERIES combination you need and choose P combination that suits most out of four available, further more you can increase P by doubling or tripling or etc. You can make it waterproof by using plastics like ABS or polycarbonate and welding the lid on with common materials like acetone(to weld ABS), silicone(to seal the terminals), methylene chloride(to weld polycarbonate). Take precautions with later stuff!!!

What’s in the box? Per one module, you get 2 x nickel plated copper tabs, one bare, one with SNATHtech. 2 x M5 nuts, 2 x M5 screw, 2 x M3 screws and chosen P printable design file. I could even arrange printable parts to be printed in your area if you are too lazy :).
I hope you will like this new approach in battery building, different take on manufacturing and encourage sustainable fabrication. I trust community here will not judge me or think that they are purchasing couple bolts and nuts, but rather a concept that I have spent countless hours and large funds to get where it is now and improve it in time that will come.
I am setting up a website to place orders without going through forums at http://www.18650.lt but at the moment, it will be available through paypal at agniusmk@gmail.com.
I would like to offer first five sets (minus printed parts, shipping and up to 14S) for people who can do unbiased video review. Forward payment and after video review is up and posted here, get full refund.

Any questions, please do not hesitate to ask!


So that’s that of my shoulders, if you have any questions please ask, would like the discussion started with good’s and bad’s. I don’t have final pricing yet.
Cheers, Agnius

P.S. I would like to credit some people, those who helped, who was inspiration and who answered random questions, perhaps stupid in times:

Snath – for the design, multiple questions answered;
Liveforphisics – for inspiration;
Doctorbass – for being a customer, helping with some answers and being a nice guy;
Circuit – for critics and being a fellow country man;
Spinningmagnets – for encouragement in not the obvious way;
Various members for involvement.


Some photos of the soon available modules:

Image

Image

Image

Tooling:

Image

Image

Some of the prototyping leftovers:

Image



Pricing. Pricing is on the website. This is how it works out:
Buying separately is full price, 6.88eur for the module hardware and 2.18eur for series bus bar. So buying components as spares to form 10S battery would cost (10×6.88)+(9×2.18)=88.42eur
Buying 10S, 12S, 13S is 10% off
Buying 14S, 16S is 15% off
Buying 20S, 22S, 24S is 20% off

If say you would want to save on 2 10S packs, you could buy 20S kit etc.
Last edited by agniusm on Jun 22, 2017 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by spinningmagnets » May 03, 2017 12:16 pm

This is brilliant! I will buy some...give me a week to do my homework.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Marin » May 03, 2017 12:29 pm

This looks great
What size would 14s 8p come out too?
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
Specialized hardrock with magic pie 4-5
Lunacycle with l/r mid drive coming soon
Kona Caldera with QS 30H (maybe), and phase runner

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » May 03, 2017 1:04 pm

The design is up to 6P Marin. You coud do 8P with two 4P modules in parallel then 14 in series.
Module size is 23x73x123 for the 6P.
14s would be 322x73x123mm for 6P.
Modules could be stacked side by side or back to back. I have 1mm nickel plated copper to connect modules in series or paralell on the way. They are 1x12x ~30mm.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » May 03, 2017 1:49 pm

Some more info on the modules:

3P module
Specifications
Capacity – 27 to 38.9Wh
356 Wh per liter
Size – 22x73x68.1mm
Power – 50A per module nominal
Volume – 0.109l
Weight – 45g (20% infill, PETG)

4P module
Specifications
Capacity – 36 to 51.8Wh
372 Wh per liter
Size – 22x73x86.4mm
Power – 50A per module nominal
Volume – 0.139l
Weight – 57g (20% infill, PETG)

5P module
Specifications
Capacity – 45 to 64.8Wh
385 Wh per liter
Size – 22x73x104.7mm
Power – 50A per module nominal
Volume – 0.168l
Weight – 69g (20% infill, PETG)

6P module
Specifications
Capacity – 54 to 77.8Wh
394 Wh per liter
Size – 22x73x123mm
Power – 50A per module nominal
Volume – 0.197l
Weight – 79g (20% infill, PETG)
Last edited by agniusm on May 03, 2017 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Marin » May 03, 2017 2:04 pm

Ok thanks
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
Specialized hardrock with magic pie 4-5
Lunacycle with l/r mid drive coming soon
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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by helno » May 03, 2017 9:29 pm

Have you got some pictures of how it all goes together?

I do a bunch of 3d printing so I would gladly do a review.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by redilast » May 04, 2017 3:25 am

The battery holders look nice, look forward to seeing more info and pricing details. Also you should post pictures and details on a full size ebike battery built with these modules.
agniusm wrote:So here’s what you can do. You can build yourself a battery out of 18650 cells without buying different bits from China like nickel strip (and then finding out its magnetic :) ),
Are you implying that pure nickel normally isn't magnetic, and that it is fake if it is magnetic? Pure Nickel is magnetic at normal room temperature. Some people incorrectly assume that nickel must be fake and nickel plated steel if it is magnetic.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » May 04, 2017 4:22 am

I have tested mine with acid when i got steel like attraction to magnet. All "nickel" strips I bought(3 different vendors on aliexpress) were nickel plated steel.
I was implying that you just never know what you get and spot welding a battery is no easy task to find out in the end that you were mislead.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » May 04, 2017 4:28 am

helno wrote:Have you got some pictures of how it all goes together?

I do a bunch of 3d printing so I would gladly do a review.
I will do a vid how to assemble one which should take around one minute. I am building 20s6p pack of these modules and the last enclosure is printing as I type.
Modules could be assembled with zip ties if you prefer quick and dirty, using SS straps (like A123) and double sided tape or placed in an enclosure.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by spinningmagnets » May 04, 2017 5:11 am

helno, what city are you in? I have money right now to pay for 3D printing from someone in the 48 states, I am in Kansas. Do you also do the CAD drawings to modify the current design? I like them just as they are right now, but I know that once I assemble a full pack? I will likely want a few minor modifications to suit my personal preferences.

Agniusm, I am very impressed by the nickel-plated copper bus strips you posted in the original development thread, what is the thickness and width of the strips in this kit? What is your estimate of the continuous and peak amps that these strips can supply without overheating? [edit: it looks like you listed all at 50A continuous]

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » May 04, 2017 5:31 am

I listed it as conservative 50A. The tabs are 0.6mm thicks 8.6mm at the narrowest and 17mm at the widest.
As with the modifications its tight. There are lots of things in design that are for a reason.
First, it has to be 3d printer friendly meaning no supports, steep overhangs. Insertion of the tabs etc etc.
I do all the stuff, CAD modeling, web site design and every bit that is involved with this module. I even had to build my light box for photoshoot so I know every detail regarding design, marketing, logistics, testing and so on. One man team :) and I have second baby coming, its a boy this time :)
To answer your question, I am open to suggestions on improving it if possible but I will not start modifying the design for each customer if its not financially viable.

P.S. I am waiting for tabs to be delivered from nickel plating. I will post more photos when I get them to show off how all comes together.
I also placed an order for tabs and terminals to do my 20s battery and 5 14s free test samples to first adopters.
All the copper stuff is fiber laser cut, deburred and nickel plated.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by emaayan » May 04, 2017 8:12 am

"if it brakes" that got my attention,

if one of those modules brakes during a ride, that could problematic..

what would you say the best material robust enough to be used here?


if i'm getting this right you offer everything but the modules themselves which i need to print, right?

can you use those to create a triangle pack?
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » May 04, 2017 12:33 pm

If it breaks, means if you get in an accident and break your battery. At that point "problematic" might be your health not the battery :)
I have listed materials that could be used: ABS, PETG, POLICARBONATE. Policarbonate being the toughest, ABS and PETG sort of at the same strength level but different properties. PETG easy to print requiring no enclosure, ABS possible to weld the lid on with acetone making modules watertight but needing enclosure to print nice. I tried printing ABS without enclosure and it came out good. Working temps of proposed thermoplastics: PETG>80C; ABS>100C, PC>130C. You should not drive your cells to reach 60C for prolonged time so designing adequate pack is important and proposed plastics are well above that temperature.
Price wise ABS should be cheapest while PC most expensive requiring temps around 300C to print in normal pace.

You got the concept of this right. I sell module hardware with enclosure software:)

Regarding triangle pack. As i mentioned to you on facebook, you can arrange given modules to whatever shape you like but in some cases supplied bolted terminals will not work in which case you will have to make your own. It is easy task and does not require special tools. 1x12mm copper strip, snips to cut it to length and hand drill with 6mm drill bit. You could also use wire with ring terminals, crimped or soldered, its your choice.

P.S. I will support customers on 3D printing as well as i do a lot of prototyping myself and have build up some knowledge in this method of manufacturing.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by emaayan » May 04, 2017 1:19 pm

thanks, actually i was thinking along the lines of small drops or shocks, or unseen fractures due to vibrations, that's one of the things that scares the most (other then bad welding), cause you can't actually see them

according to the specs of Panasonic pf, 60 degrees is what you'll get if you use 10A , i have no plans on reaching there, maybe 5A, i'll try my first battery maybe as 14S6P on 1500 watts. it should reach around 45 degrees.


since the battery should serve me years, price is not an issue, i've just recently ordered this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012U ... UTF8&psc=1
i especially like how it says it's applications are for heat/fire resistant parts, however i have no enclosure, (yet) for my tevo tarantula
your use of poron foam also gave me an idea to enclose the pack around it, as it's also listed as fire retardant, and then encase it with regular foam and then use heat shrinks as final packaging

maximum heat is not the only issue, i know that PETG can also be used in printer parts as well it's the repetitive heat and cold things that also worries me,

regarding the modules, i might out of line, but have you also considered, using rectangular and triangle shapes?


hmm can't access your site from work being blocked..i'll try again from home..
agniusm wrote:If it breaks, means if you get in an accident and break your battery. At that point "problematic" might be your health not the battery :)
I have listed materials that could be used: ABS, PETG, POLICARBONATE. Policarbonate being the toughest, ABS and PETG sort of at the same strength level but different properties. PETG easy to print requiring no enclosure, ABS possible to weld the lid on with acetone making modules watertight but needing enclosure to print nice. I tried printing ABS without enclosure and it came out good. Working temps of proposed thermoplastics: PETG>80C; ABS>100C, PC>130C. You should not drive your cells to reach 60C for prolonged time so designing adequate pack is important and proposed plastics are well above that temperature.
Price wise ABS should be cheapest while PC most expensive requiring temps around 300C to print in normal pace.

You got the concept of this right. I sell module hardware with enclosure software:)

Regarding triangle pack. As i mentioned to you on facebook, you can arrange given modules to whatever shape you like but in some cases supplied bolted terminals will not work in which case you will have to make your own. It is easy task and does not require special tools. 1x12mm copper strip, snips to cut it to length and hand drill with 6mm drill bit. You could also use wire with ring terminals, crimped or soldered, its your choice.

P.S. I will support customers on 3D printing as well as i do a lot of prototyping myself and have build up some knowledge in this method of manufacturing.
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by tomjasz » May 04, 2017 2:08 pm

PayPal account at the ready! When and where and how much!
This is VERY exciting!!!!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by macribs » May 04, 2017 2:10 pm

The idea of getting the file for printing locally is very nice. Thumbs up for you sir. I like what I see here, and it seems 2017 will be the year the no-weld packs will be taking off and hopefully become mainstream.

And so I hope is the case for 20700's batteries, that they too will be mainstream this year.
Would you offer a version for 20700 you think, with say 200 A battery current? Many here uses hi current draw motors and controllers and could really benefit from thicker nickel plated copper to allow for higher current draw.

Really like you approach, and the print locally. You are right on the money for the basic idea for 3D printing.

Look forward to see a video of a big pack being assembled with your parts and design.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by Doctorbass » May 04, 2017 3:50 pm

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by helno » May 04, 2017 8:53 pm

spinningmagnets wrote:helno, what city are you in?
I'm in Canada so I'm not much help. Look around on 3d hubs and you will find all kinds of locals who will print stuff on demand.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by riba2233 » May 06, 2017 9:31 am

Nice work! 8)


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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » May 15, 2017 10:00 am

Little update. Had a snag, but all is good and back on track. Poron compression was bowing out sides of the module. Now design revised to eliminate that error. Here are some photos with issue on the left and fixed issue on the right:

Image

Image

There will be 2 types of module enclosures, one closed and one vented. Also i have 3-6P2S modules:

Image

Image

Connecting cells in series or parallel and crude zip tie building method:

Image

Image

Image

Tab caps act as short protection and have grooves to help with keeping bolts tight.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » May 15, 2017 11:04 am

I have a fully operational 3D printer and I would love to try this out. My build envelope is only about 200mm x 200mm x 180mm though.
Last edited by StinkyGoalieGuy on May 15, 2017 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by agniusm » May 15, 2017 12:00 pm

1.5 set should fit no problem. I have printed mine this way

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Re: N.E.S.E. the no solder module

Post by eyebyesickle » May 15, 2017 5:58 pm

looking good

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