CYC PHOTON

That would be OK if they let the local vendors stock spares and such. I can go find almost all the parts I need for my TSDz2 from any number of vendors here. Same for BBS, I believe. But if everything has to be drop shipped from Taiwan or whatever it will be a royal PITA. I have bought a few parts for my X1 Gen 2 (freewheel, chainrings, etc.) direct from CYC and it takes weeks. Which is sad. Whereas I can get TSDZ2 stuff in a couple of days.

But I can still see someone somewhere plugging in a throttle they have laying around and potentially frying something.

I think it is all done on purpose. You want replacement for broken throttle? No problem! Here is our CYC shop! Enjoy!
 
Great review. But it's a real shame they didn't use the standard throttle pinouts. I suspect someone, somewhere, sometime will mess up and use the wrong part.
Yeah, but which standard? I think there seem to be about 3 different layouts, and these predate this system.
 
I asked them VIA emial and they confirmed that you have to "Reserve" your unit Because they have only units for customers WHO already paid and waiting for shipment.
Fair enough. They must be severely cash constrained, because they could probably charge a premium for installation of in stock kits, and it is all work for them.
 
The one really bad thing from the review video is it seems CYC will not send warranty repair parts or maybe even sell repair parts and spares to end users. Damn. That is almost enough for me to cancel my order. Now, if they are bulletproof for 20,000 miles that wouldn't be a huge deal, but we don't know that yet.
That might be CYC's intention, and has the added advantage that they develop a really clear idea of issues they'll need to address, but this approach will not scale.

If the Photon is as successful as it should be, shipping back to manufacturer for maintenance is just not scalable. CYC can't even keep up with the initial supply, how are they going to keep up with units they sell returning multiple times during the products lifetime?

And there is already some information indicating that service is required at 2,000km, which seems strange to me.

Once these are out of warranty, there will be 3rd parties repairing these as best they can, which is not going to be an ideal situation.
 
Maybe CYC has a mistaken impression of how easy it is to get to a shop. My relatives in China all have a dozen bicycle/e-bike/scooter shops within walking distance. The sidewalks are filled with parked scooters and even old grandmas ride them.

I live in the SF Bay Area, supposedly a tech hub, but my nearest bicycle store is a ten minute pedal away for one that won't touch e-bike's. It's over a half hour to one that will. And scooters and ebikes and mopeds are all super rare compared to cars.
 
Maybe CYC has a mistaken impression of how easy it is to get to a shop. My relatives in China all have a dozen bicycle/e-bike/scooter shops within walking distance. The sidewalks are filled with parked scooters and even old grandmas ride them.

I live in the SF Bay Area, supposedly a tech hub, but my nearest bicycle store is a ten minute pedal away for one that won't touch e-bike's. It's over a half hour to one that will. And scooters and ebikes and mopeds are all super rare compared to cars.
My closest (and only) CYC distributor is 500km away from me. Luckily, it is on the same island :)
 
I'd agree! After looking over the internal photos in the U.S. FCC-related BT certification documents, I continue to hope that either CYC or the DIY community will be able to document DIY regreasing instructions. IMO, it doesn't look impossible - maybe a little more involved than the typical Bafang secondary gear regrease job, and perhaps easier than the Bafang primary gear regreasing.
CYC may be on shaky legal ground here - depending on the interpretation of "right to repair" in different jurisdictions.

And ethically, their approach looks even worse. The right to repair allows you to repair or modify your bike pretty much with no oversight. CYC depend on this, their market would not exist if this went away. Yet that same consideration doesn't apply to them. They need to rethink this.
 
CYC may be on shaky legal ground here - depending on the interpretation of "right to repair" in different jurisdictions.

And ethically, their approach looks even worse. The right to repair allows you to repair or modify your bike pretty much with no oversight. CYC depend on this, their market would not exist if this went away. Yet that same consideration doesn't apply to them. They need to rethink this.
is this impossible to discuss with them via facebook as it's pretty public and forces them to answer clearly and straightforward ?
 
is this impossible to discuss with them via facebook as it's pretty public and forces them to answer clearly and straightforward ?
I don't believe that this is something that should be discussed with CYC in a public forum, you'll find you get best results by not cornering some one in such a situation. Better just build the case, get widespread support and let them come to the right conclusion in their own time. They definitely follow YouTube videos, BTW and I'd assume they follow some of these forums too. So be nice :)
 
I Would also want to know when will they release improved firmware. I'm pretty sure Bugs in application (very low Wh/km and so on) may be caused by garbage data being received from controller.
 
Well, for better or worse, my Photon is on the way. UPS shipping status is "Label created". Looks like it will be on a slow truck from Utah to MD, however.

As for repairability and such, CYC had better wake up. These things are sold to DIYers... that's what we do. I haven't had a bicycle, regular or e-bike, in a shop... ever?? And I have, what... 6 or 7 bikes from DuraAce road rig to ancient 1988 Trek 8000 MTB, CYC X1 bike and TSDZ2 bike. And I don't intend to start now. If this thing becomes problematic and repairs or maintenance are too costly, slow, or impossible, that will be it for me and CYC. But I am hoping for the best.
 
Some throttle info/testing - YMMV, I made one test on one Photon motor, you're at your own risk and all of that.

In short, a generic "Bafang" throttle supplied as part of a BBSHD kit purchase seems to work just fine on/with my Photon motor.

CYC going off on their own with the throttle design and/or wiring standard made no business sense to me (no significant profit to be made or intellectual property to be protected), and I had one of those late-night thoughts that, screw it, I'll electrically compare a Bafang BBS02 bike throttle and wiring directly against the CYC equivalent. If all looked the same, then I'll plug in the typical Bafang generic throttle into the CYC Photon and give it a rip.

As I posted earlier in the thread, I've already run the "incompatible" (per CYC) 750C display on the Photon, and have been using the Bafang mechanical brake levers along with a gearsensor.com shift sensor - all without any apparent issues.

To make the electrical testing easier and somewhat short-proof, I chopped in half a short throttle extension cable. The cable wires happen to have the same color codes in the Bafang wiring diagram:

Capture.PNG
On the Bafang BBS02 bike, I verified that black pin 8 ground was 0 ohms to battery ground (just in case), then powered up the system and verified positive 5vdc (4.82vdc actual) between the ground and red pin 6 +5vdc (throttle unplugged). Then I plugged in and ran the throttle, measuring the voltage between the ground and throttle pin 7, and the voltage climbed up (between roughly 1 and 4 volts). The results were all as expected, and as reported on various forum threads as the typical throttle circuit behavior.

I repeated all of the individual steps and measurements on the Photon bike, using the CYC "compatible" Photon throttle, and got the same results. With a bit of confidence and only a slight hesitation, I plugged in the Bafang throttle, powered up, and the throttle worked. I did not go into the CYC app and run the throttle-autocalibration tool. The only difference I could detect was that the Bafang throttle is somewhat more abrupt in the range than the CYC, taking less thumb paddle throw - an ongoing complaint against this version of the Bafang throttle. I also dragged the rear brake and made sure the torque sensing still worked. No, I didn't test the bike out on the road - all measurements and tests were made on the stand.

In hindsight, there are more comparative tests I could have made (such as the pin 6 5-volt supply line current draw), but the throttle circuit design(s) are fairly simple and straightforward and I don't feel the need at this point to do so.

So, the cost appears to have been sacrificing a throttle extension cable and some wire ties to the DIY "knowledge base". My bet is that any throttle that is known to work with the Bafang BBS motors, be it thumb, twist, or whatever, will probably work just fine with the CYC Photon.
 
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Well, for better or worse, my Photon is on the way. UPS shipping status is "Label created". Looks like it will be on a slow truck from Utah to MD, however.

As for repairability and such, CYC had better wake up. These things are sold to DIYers... that's what we do. I haven't had a bicycle, regular or e-bike, in a shop... ever?? And I have, what... 6 or 7 bikes from DuraAce road rig to ancient 1988 Trek 8000 MTB, CYC X1 bike and TSDZ2 bike. And I don't intend to start now. If this thing becomes problematic and repairs or maintenance are too costly, slow, or impossible, that will be it for me and CYC. But I am hoping for the best.
I just checked on my order, and am still feeling "Unfulfilled" - but congrats anyway!

My guess/hope still is that CYC, along with the resellers will figure out the support rules balance and adjust the rules accordingly to/for the benefit of all parties and to establish good rapport into the D.I.Y. world, who after all, influence sales. And I also hope, IF CYC is communicating good info over on the closed to some Facebook world, it leaks over here.
 
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Maybe CYC has a mistaken impression of how easy it is to get to a shop. My relatives in China all have a dozen bicycle/e-bike/scooter shops within walking distance. The sidewalks are filled with parked scooters and even old grandmas ride them.

I live in the SF Bay Area, supposedly a tech hub, but my nearest bicycle store is a ten minute pedal away for one that won't touch e-bike's. It's over a half hour to one that will. And scooters and ebikes and mopeds are all super rare compared to cars.
True for me as well, for the most part. There is an e-bike specific reseller in my area now, but the service department is mostly tailored for their "brands we sell". Yeah, they'll fiddle your other or D.I.Y. bike, but with no repair success guarantees and at approx. $100/hr. Can you blame them though, with the amount of e-bike pure-T-junk out there?
 
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I don't believe that this is something that should be discussed with CYC in a public forum, you'll find you get best results by not cornering some one in such a situation. Better just build the case, get widespread support and let them come to the right conclusion in their own time. They definitely follow YouTube videos, BTW and I'd assume they follow some of these forums too. So be nice :)
i do believe it's the only way that customer can fights for his rights . especially that they operate outside eu/us regulations and basically they do as they please and customer has no leverage over them . second reason is their product is really premium and the service should reflect that ...
 
Product is not necessarily premium, at least IMO. It certainly is premium priced but it remains to be seen if it is premium in operation, reliability and service.

i do believe it's the only way that customer can fights for his rights . especially that they operate outside eu/us regulations and basically they do as they please and customer has no leverage over them . second reason is their product is really premium and the service should reflect that ...
 
Product is not necessarily premium, at least IMO. It certainly is premium priced but it remains to be seen if it is premium in operation, reliability and service.
I agree, and as I priced out in this post, where you live and your specific build requirements affect how premium the Photon is priced (or not).
 
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i do believe it's the only way that customer can fights for his rights . especially that they operate outside eu/us regulations and basically they do as they please and customer has no leverage over them . second reason is their product is really premium and the service should reflect that ...
I totally disagree; consider the context.

This is not Intel, Exxon or Nestle - juggernauts where you really only have direct action available to influence their thinking.

This appears to be just a small group of normal people with limited resources who are enthusiastic about their product and just haven't had time to work through the issues. They are probably new to this, so be nice.

Besides, I've always found just calmly making suggestions works really well. I didn't get my current bike upgraded (and it had a HUGE upgrade) to what it is by running around and having a tantrum. Same when HP upgraded my $1000 entry level TabletPC to a $5000 business class one after I raised a design issue with them. Doesn't always work, but sometimes it does.

Its all very well to fight for your rights, but getting them to the right solution is far better.
 
one does not have to raise shitstorm. it's possible to have a discussion this way . but getting it public helps avoid confusion and better treatment . it doesn't matter if they are enthusiasticor not or how many people they employ. they run business . not for week but years now . they surely know how-to market and how to manufacture. they should know by now how to scale ...considering price for motor alone ( when you know service price for Shimano/Yamaha/Bosch etc) it is surely premium motor. they definately knew it's market value and prospected sales . they should order more production time if they rent machines or they should buy more production machines. they should employ more people and so on ... they're not new to this yet they appear unprepared?? it's not fair toward their clients and going this way entire company might flop as people might get really angry...
 
According to guy who is a allegedly part of ToSeven company ,Photon requires "trained technician" because motor is glued.

Because its glued shut

 
I agree, I get a sort of amateurish vibe from CYC on the business and customer service end. One thing that torqued me off is that soon after I got my X1 Pro Gen 2, they came out with Freewheel 2.0. Yet they didn't provide them to us relatively recent buyers for free. You have to buy them. I like the fact that they continue to develop and improve their products but if something like that needs an update so soon (why, was it defective?), and considering the premium price of the kit in the first place, it should just be sent to current owners gratis or be sold to them at a significant discount.

one does not have to raise shitstorm. it's possible to have a discussion this way . but getting it public helps avoid confusion and better treatment . it doesn't matter if they are enthusiasticor not or how many people they employ. they run business . not for week but years now . they surely know how-to market and how to manufacture. they should know by now how to scale ...considering price for motor alone ( when you know service price for Shimano/Yamaha/Bosch etc) it is surely premium motor. they definately knew it's market value and prospected sales . they should order more production time if they rent machines or they should buy more production machines. they should employ more people and so on ... they're not new to this yet they appear unprepared?? it's not fair toward their clients and going this way entire company might flop as people might get really angry...
 
A heat gun and putty knife should handle that.

According to guy who is a allegedly part of ToSeven company ,Photon requires "trained technician" because motor is glued.



 
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