Looking for hub motor for regen purposes

[Potato011]

I have a mongoose envoy cargo bike with a 52v bbshd. However, I also want to a dd a rear hub motor for regen purposes. Ideally, I want a fully built wheel with something similar to an mtx39 as the rim but the bare essentials I've narrowed it to are a 750w+ dd motor with 142mm dropout. The dropout width is really restricting my options so I'd like some recommendations on compatible motors. The controller I plan to use is some form of vesc.

tl.dr:
- need recommendation on 750w+ dd hub motor with 142mm dropout for regen

 

[Mclewis1]

Quick release or thru axle rear dropouts? How much power do you need (1000w, 1500, more)?

The most versatile motor I know of that would likely fit your requirements would be the Grin All Axle. Pick your winding speed, axle/dropout, PAS vs. Torque, and hub/cluster type. Grin also offers a complete wheel build using a few rim choices (the Alex DM24 is almost as wide as the mtx39).

The motor is fully documented so it should be a breeze to get working on a vesc.

All in all pricey but with the build choices, built in robust torque arm, documentation, support, and complete wheel build option it might be worth it to you.

Grin Rear V3 All-Axle Hub Build (make sure you're looking at USD prices)

 

[Potato011]

Quick release or thru axle rear dropouts? How much power do you need (1000w, 1500, more)?

The most versatile motor I know of that would likely fit your requirements would be the Grin All Axle. Pick your winding speed, axle/dropout, PAS vs. Torque, and hub/cluster type. Grin also offers a complete wheel build using a few rim choices (the Alex DM24 is almost as wide as the mtx39).

The motor is fully documented so it should be a breeze to get working on a vesc.

All in all pricey but with the build choices, built in robust torque arm, documentation, support, and complete wheel build option it might be worth it to you.

Grin Rear V3 All-Axle Hub Build (make sure you're looking at USD prices)

I need a quick release and a power range of around 750-1000w. Grin has always been on my radar but it's quite pricey for something that is to be used for mostly regen and an emergency back up. If there is really no other option, then I'll get that

 

[Chalo]

Leaf 1000W <—
Yescomusa
Voilamart

My thinking is that the extra weight and overhead of operational parts will outweigh whatever trifling energy recovery you get. Better to upgrade your actual brakes than use a non-brake as a brake.

If you're stuck on the latter, maybe a short length of broom handle to jam into your spokes would be a more economical alternative to do braking wrong.

 

[Potato011]

Leaf 1000W <—
Yescomusa
Voilamart

My thinking is that the extra weight and overhead of operational parts will outweigh whatever trifling energy recovery you get. Better to upgrade your actual brakes than use a non-brake as a brake.

If you're stuck on the latter, maybe a short length of broom handle to jam into your spokes would be a more economical alternative to do braking wrong.

My main goal is not to recover energy. This bike often carries loads in excess of 400 lbs (sometimes also a trailer) and the area i live in has many long down hills. The regen hub is so I stop shredding my brakes. The current setup is a magura mt5 and 203mm rotors on the front and back. I can't think of any more powerful brake options. They provide enough stopping power but I'm concerned about brake fade and having to change the pads every few months. The hub is also an intro into vesc which I want to get into. Eventually, I want to implement a regen hub on the trailer as well.

 

[Chalo]

My main goal is not to recover energy. This bike often carries loads in excess of 400 lbs (sometimes also a trailer) and the area i live in has many long down hills. The regen hub is so I stop shredding my brakes. The current setup is a magura mt5 and 203mm rotors on the front and back. I can't think of any more powerful brake options. They provide enough stopping power but I'm concerned about brake fade and having to change the pads every few months.

Doin it rong.

You will not reduce total maintenance by using a non-brake as a brake, but you will dramatically reduce the real performance of your brakes.

 

[Potato011]

Doin it rong.

You will not reduce total maintenance by using a non-brake as a brake, but you will dramatically reduce the real performance of your brakes.

Assuming I can't change the weight of the load, how would I increase braking force?

 

[99zip99]

Is the motor restricted to 750 watts ?
What battery and what BMS and what voltage are you going to use to make use of region ?

 

[99zip99]

I had a 72 volt maxis 3000 5T and a power velocity Bluetooth controller and an A123 72v battery the Bluetooth on the controller never works and it can never be programmed and if I want to use region I would go down the hill from my house to the harbor and it would hit 2200 Watts as a 123 pack 20 ah. It can handle it.
I still have that pack but it's now a 20s on the shelf it works 13 yrs old. A little tired
My point being good quality sales are needed to stuff that much region back in the battery to take advantage of your weight how much is it weighing ?
What controller ? You need something Bluetooth adjustable.

 

[Potato011]

Is the motor restricted to 750 watts ?
What battery and what BMS and what voltage are you going to use to make use of region ?

No real restiction on motor size. I just threw out 750 because that seems like a pretty common motor size. The battery is a 52v 17.5 ah pack purchased from em3ev. I'm told by their customer support it has a common port bms and they recommended no more than 20 amps regen. I intend to use a VESC controller for this motor - trampa or flipsky.

 

[99zip99]

I like to see the pedal cab because they are Italian South American and Chinese battle cabs.
I bought a Sali 72v 3,000watt kit laced disc brake rim for 350.00 shipped
The controller is some special waterproof I don't know what's inside but no regen. But at that price you can swap the controller you can come by and look at it.

 

[Potato011]

I like to see the pedal cab because they are Italian South American and Chinese battle cabs.
I bought a Sali 72v 3,000watt kit laced disc brake rim for 350.00 shipped
The controller is some special waterproof I don't know what's inside but no regen. But at that price you can swap the controller you can come by and look at it.

I will look into it. The 142mm rear dropout is the primary thing screwing over my options.

 

[Chalo]

Assuming I can't change the weight of the load, how would I increase braking force?

If you have Magura MT5 calipers and 8 inch rotors, then if you aren't getting as much braking as you need, you have contaminated pads or just super crappy aftermarket pads. Even one drop of oil can permanently ruin a pair of disc brake pads. You can't bring them back, so don't try. The pads soak up oil like it's their job.

Rim brakes are dramatically less vulnerable to being debilitated by contamination.

Also, despite Magura's bold warranty against leakage, I find that their MT series is chronically leaky and therefore self-contaminating. Good cable brakes are resistant to such nonsense. Also, good cable discs can be operated in parallel with good rim brakes using twin cable levers. Your department store bike doesn't support linear-pull brakes, but it could support long reach caliper brakes in addition to discs.

San Diego isn't wildly hilly. What are you doing (other than using self-contaminating brakes) to run short of stopping power?

 

[Chalo]

I will look into it. The 142mm rear dropout is the primary thing screwing over my options.

All you need is 3-4mm of flatted washer inboard of the dropouts on each side to make a 135mm hub into a 142mm hub. There's no magic at work here. Just add a couple of washers.

 

[Potato011]

If you have Magura MT5 calipers and 8 inch rotors, then if you aren't getting as much braking as you need, you have contaminated pads or just super crappy aftermarket pads. Even one drop of oil can permanently ruin a pair of disc brake pads. You can't bring them back, so don't try. The pads soak up oil like it's their job.

Rim brakes are dramatically less vulnerable to being debilitated by contamination.

Also, despite Magura's bold warranty against leakage, I find that their MT series is chronically leaky and therefore self-contaminating. Good cable brakes are resistant to such nonsense. Also, good cable discs can be operated in parallel with good rim brakes using twin cable levers. Your department store bike doesn't support linear-pull brakes, but it could support long reach caliper brakes in addition to discs.

San Diego isn't wildly hilly. What are you doing (other than using self-contaminating brakes) to run short of stopping power?

I would agree that my pads may be contaminated, at least based on the noise. However, even when the pads were new and I just installed the brakes, a full load brake test was still a bit sketchy. I didn't like how long the braking distance was. This bike does quite a bit of bikepacking in the santee mt laguna area in addition to mtb trails but the benchmark I usually use is genesee ave northboud between chairamont mesa blvd and the 52 freeway.

 

[Potato011]

All you need is 3-4mm of flatted washer inboard of the dropouts on each side to make a 135mm hub into a 142mm hub. There's no magic at work here. Just add a couple of washers.

dont know enough about hub motors but don't they have a piece protruding that the hangers hook onto? The skewers should only compress the frame onto the hub, not take the weight of the bike. If the hub is too short and I use spacers, the weight of the frame would be on the skewer and not the hub itself.

 

[99zip99]

I talk about the 3,000 w motor it's heavy and 45mm stator for Regen.
I reread your first post and I looked up your bike I thought you had a cargo wagon four wheels.
You can melt a 35 mm leaf motor with 2,000 w and 1500 watts of Regen as it's always working. A 28mm stator will melt without holes and stator and cooling fins.
I live at Dana point harbor or close. Yeah lots of hills or take a highway camp Pendleton , horse trails you know the type.

 

[lnanek]

dont know enough about hub motors but don't they have a piece protruding that the hangers hook onto? The skewers should only compress the frame onto the hub, not take the weight of the bike. If the hub is too short and I use spacers, the weight of the frame would be on the skewer and not the hub itself.

I've never seen a hub motor with skewers. I guess your current wheels are quick release? Most motor hubs aren't like that. The drop outs typically sit on axles. The axles are typically something like 12mm with 10mm flats. The flats are used to attach torque arms to prevent rotation.

The All Axle motor might be the only one I've heard of that could take a quick release skewer, but even for that you have to use a swappable insert I've never seen to get down to that size. So it could take a through axle too. All my hub motors have axles, though, not skewers.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I cringe at your 203mm four pot hydraulic front disc brake upgrade when I know you have QR front axle and often carry loads in excess of 400 lb (sometimes with trailer) up and down long hills.

 

[Potato011]

I've never seen a hub motor with skewers. I guess your current wheels are quick release? Most motor hubs aren't like that. The drop outs typically sit on axles. The axles are typically something like 12mm with 10mm flats. The flats are used to attach torque arms to prevent rotation.

The All Axle motor might be the only one I've heard of that could take a quick release skewer, but even for that you have to use a swappable insert I've never seen to get down to that size. So it could take a through axle too. All my hub motors have axles, though, not skewers.

I might be getting some of the terminology wrong. The frame is a mongoose envoy. What I'm concerned about is the length of this threaded portion the green arrow is pointed at. The listings that say 135mm dropout makes me think the distance from the end of one threaded portion to the end of the threaded portion on the other side of the wheel is only wide enough to fit a dropouts of 135mm. It needs to be long enough) on either side to sit on the hook part on the frame. In this case, a nut on the thread does the job the skewer would have on a regular hub

 

[Potato011]

I cringe at your 203mm four pot hydraulic front disc brake upgrade when I know you have QR front axle and often carry loads in excess of 400 lb (sometimes with trailer) up and down long hills.

It is indeed a QR on the front. haven't really had any issues with that or the back QR except when that time I was sideways on a 45 degree dirt hill with load. That's the only time when the rear QR has popped out.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I might be getting some of the terminology wrong. The frame is a mongoose envoy. What I'm concerned about is the length of this threaded portion the green arrow is pointed at. The listings that say 135mm dropout makes me think the distance from the end of one threaded portion to the end of the threaded portion on the other side of the wheel is only wide enough to fit a dropouts of 135mm. It needs to be long enough) on either side to sit on the hook part on the frame. In this case, a nut on the thread does the job the skewer would have on a regular hubView attachment 360726

The dimension you are referring is called overlocknut dimension and it is measured from one shoulder of the axle to the other shoulder of the axle. It does not include the threaded portion.

P.S. Mongoose Envoy has 141mm x 9mm for the rear:

Envoy

Transport your stuff around town with ease with the Envoy, an adult cargo bike by Mongoose. Made for riders between 5'5" and 6'2", the Envoy features alumnium frame, disc brakes, and ride racks for simple transportation. Find more details at the Mongoose site.

www.mongoose.com

 

[Potato011]

The dimension you are referring is called overlocknut dimension and it is measured from one axle shoulder to the other axle shoulder. It does not include the threaded portion

P.S. Mongoose Envoy has 141mm x 9mm for the rear:

Envoy

Transport your stuff around town with ease with the Envoy, an adult cargo bike by Mongoose. Made for riders between 5'5" and 6'2", the Envoy features alumnium frame, disc brakes, and ride racks for simple transportation. Find more details at the Mongoose site.

www.mongoose.com

Thanks, that's what I'm talking about. Even so, most of the hubs I'm looking at say 135mm so still limited options.

 

[Potato011]

The dimension you are referring is called overlocknut dimension and it is measured from one shoulder of the axle to the other shoulder of the axle. It does not include the threaded portion.

P.S. Mongoose Envoy has 141mm x 9mm for the rear:

Envoy

Transport your stuff around town with ease with the Envoy, an adult cargo bike by Mongoose. Made for riders between 5'5" and 6'2", the Envoy features alumnium frame, disc brakes, and ride racks for simple transportation. Find more details at the Mongoose site.

www.mongoose.com

View attachment 360727

I found a video of someone whti a hub motor on an envoy:

if the envoy can actually do a 135mm hub, that would be great.

 

[Potato011]

I'm thinking it over and 141 isnt really that far from 135. If the threaded portion has enough extra length and i do what Chalo said and add few spacers, it should probably be fine.