Hill Climbing Assistance

I'll bookmark this one and find out the costs of the additional stuff. Though I have a feeling it'll cost more than a mid-drive and certainly more than the friction drive. I always appreciate your help.

Upfront costs for a hub drive setup can be higher lately, however the long term maintenance cost is going to be low due to the simplicity. Pains in the ass on the side of the road will be greatly reduced. Also, unlike a mid drive, you are not going to be eating chains and drivetrain parts. Friction drive may consume tires and rollers.

What you're looking for specifically is very low weight, which makes your entry into a hub drive more expensive because you must select specialized components.

Like right now if you had loose requirements then you could have bought a 6.5lbs geared hub motor kit for $200 shipped in the USA, then bought one of these cheap batteries & had a good time for $400 all in.

Unfortunately there are only a couple very light, lowish power addon mid drives that would be suitable for the use case you want.
 
When it comes to mid-drives on the reliability scale: Bafang, Tongsheng, and Toseven. The main drawback to Bafang is the lack of torque sensing, though posters have said you can make it a lot smoother by 'removing speed limits from PAS modes.'

Am I accurate so far?

There's nothing smooth or good about PAS no matter how well you tune it; torque sensing is the bicycle like experience you're probably looking for.
 
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It's probably a dissenting view, but I'm going to suggest "look to Europe." Most European countries have a 250w maximum and pedal assist only (no throttle rule) and Australia, where I live, follows this as well. My tourer/commuter has a front wheel kit because I wanted to preserve my "mullet" gearing at the rear (1x9, 11 to 46 teeth. I'm a weirdo, I know, it's microshift and I love it) If you're happy with whatever gearing fits, the rear wheel is better for traction, but I can still gravel climb with the front doing more than me and don't lose traction, even on a 2m 50%er I have to throw the bike at flatout at the bottom and nearly stopped at the top. (Might be a 30%er, we Aussies are given to beer talk, even when sober.)

Now, I know there are a lot of people here on EndlessSphere riding much higher power because the USA has been slower to restrict eBike power. This is good but also not so good. I mean a kilowatt will get people biking more, but I have a heart condition with a medical maximum BPM of 130, a 90 year old's MHR at 63 and 250w feels like me before before my NSTEMI (The "widowmaker" according to the local paramedic culture) That's at 20% pedal assist on the flat. Full power, all 250w, makes me feel like Cadel Evans on the Champs Elysee! Even with panniers on for a week away!

I live in Melbourne, Australia, and there are some nasty breath suckers between my place and the CBD. Short but nasty steep. These are the hills that I avoided before adding an e-kit to my beloved long hauler (not a surly, just what she's designed for, slow grinding the miles, well, kilometres here, but they look more impressive on paper 😂) I avoided these hills before my heart popped a big end.

Anyway, my nearly 2am AEDT sleepless point here is, don't fear a proper e-kit. My only regret, after resisting for years, was overestimating the battery I "needed." If you're just after a hill boost, you'll get that from 250W, you'll feel at least 20 years younger most of the time on 20% to 40% boost and you'll still get that healthy, aerobic workout without being so goddamned anaerobic on the big hills. 10Ah battery at 36v is more than enough for a commuter, probably a 7.5Ah is enough, depending on how big your hills are. There's no complication after install. Just a bike computer sized speedo and battery display, a small control box on the back of my seatpost and a motor in one of the wheels. My battery, though, yeah, 7.5Ah at 36v would have been way better than the 15 I bought. For around the city, anyway.

Wheel drivers are inefficient, can be noisy, are frankly not easier to install, looking at most of the designs and they slip badly if you get caught in the rain. They look attractive because they look like there's only one thing, not a collection of bits. If you're worried about the technicality of installing a wheel kit, talk to the bike shop that does your services, buy the kit they recommend, have them fit it. I used to work audio production, have a background in electronics AND have always serviced my own bikes. I found install a challenge, a physical one, too. But that lasts a moment, then you have a purpose built bike with an electric assist, that's as easy to use as the front gears on a 3xN derailleur setup... except you've got 5 or 6 of them, or off... easier, actually. button up, button down. Want to go? Push a pedal. Want to stop, grab the brakes. As easy as riding a bike, really.

The Europeans are killing it with eBike adoption, and pedal assist is why. It's still like riding a bicycle, just with a robot giving you a "backie" (or a "dink" as we call it in Australia)
I love my 1x9 Microshift Advent setup, too: Super Short RD, 11-38 cassette, thumb shifter (friction mode), and a raceface narrow-wide 30T. I like it so much it'll be difficult to change any of it, so that's why the friction or hub method sounds appealing.

It would be great to have a front ehub and be done with it, but my 2012 Jamis Coda Comp (chromoly frame) has a carbon fork. I've been told not put an front ehub on a carbon fork. Is that false?

Fork type: Carbon fiber unicrown with brake mounts, low-rider carrier mounts and forged dropouts with single eyeletsJamis Coda Comp (2012) Specs
Frame type: Reynolds 520 double-butted chromoly main tubes, extended head tube with reinforced collars, double tapered cromo stays, forged dropouts with eyelets.

The forks are made to mount a front rack, which is odd because I thought carbon fiber shouldn't have anything like that.
I suppose I could try to find a matching chromoly fork, but I'm unsure if that's possible, expensive, or practical.

I'm in fairly decent shape and probably don't need epic amounts of power, just like you are saying a small boost is the key to shave off a couple decades of fatique riding.

A couple of years ago, I was riding a 12-inch wheel single-speed folding bike with a 250-watt rear motor and flying up hills without being tired.

I don't mind doing everything myself, except for wheel building.
 
There's nothing smooth or good about PAS no matter how well you tune it; torque sensing is the bicycle like experience you're probably looking for.
Yeah, I hear you. Really ideally I would simply shut it off during flats and mainly use some assistance on inclines or if tired. Ideally something that doesn't resist when turned off. The Bafang mid-drive gave me a lot of resistance when I shut it off. A geared hub sounds appealing if when shut off doesn't provide much resistance. I enjoy cycling, but sometimes my 50 (ish) age is catching up to me. :( And the other reason, as I mentioned above, I love my current drivetrain setup. It would be a bummer to alter it for some other configuration if I can simply utilize it with a boosting setup.
 
Resistance of a well built geared hub motor will be imperceptable when freewheeling. There is almost a direct correlation between money spent and freewheeling ability. The most draggy, cheap, crappy geared hub motor i've tried was still plenty pedalable for me.

You don't have to apologize for your age or physical abilities. Endless Sphere is the opposite of an acoustic bicycle purist community, lol.
 
Resistance of a well built geared hub motor will be imperceptable when freewheeling. There is almost a direct correlation between money spent and freewheeling ability. The most draggy, cheap, crappy geared hub motor i've tried was still plenty pedalable for me.

You don't have to apologize for your age or physical abilities. Endless Sphere is the opposite of an acoustic bicycle purist community, lol.
I wonder if I can find an online service in the USA to build a wheel around that hub you mentioned. Local bike shops around here cater to the 'spandex warrior' crowd, as I jokingly call them, with all respect: $ 5k + road cycling riders.
 
I don't know of one. Occasionally i see these these kinds of light dual reduction geared motors spoked into a wheel.
If you are moderately serious about considering a geared hub motor i'd be happy to help you hunt one down in a wheel.

I don't know of an online motor spoker. I like to order from ebikes.ca because they will spoke the motor up into nearly any size/rim width imagineable.

In my experience, a local hipster or mountain bike shop would be the best place to go.
I'm a local-first consumer so i get a list of local shops, and call every one until someone says yes to spoking a motor for me.
Most will say no.
 
I don't know of one. Occasionally i see these these kinds of light dual reduction geared motors spoked into a wheel.
If you are moderately serious about considering a geared hub motor i'd be happy to help you hunt one down in a wheel.

I don't know of an online motor spoker. I like to order from ebikes.ca because they will spoke the motor up into nearly any size/rim width imagineable.

In my experience, a local hipster or mountain bike shop would be the best place to go.
I'm a local-first consumer so i get a list of local shops, and call every one until someone says yes to spoking a motor for me.
Most will say no.
I'm serious about the geared hub motor option you mentioned. It would save a lot of hassle, as you mentioned, and I could keep my beloved Microshift Advent drivetrain as is and healthy. :) If you find someone selling ehubs with wheels, that'd be awesome. I don't mind hunting for deals on components to build a kit. It can take a while to get good prices while piecing stuff together. I often say the most essential ingredient to building a good bike is patience. My primary bicycle is the product of an estate sale combined with eBay and various deals online, putting stuff together, but it's perfect for me.

The question is cost, of course. Even if it's not the ideal geared hub motor wheel, at least something to offer hill assist when I want to turn it on, and low resistance when off.

My rims are 700c, and I use Magura hydraulic rim brakes. The tire size limit is 32mm maximum. My front fork is carbon, so I'm assuming a front ehub is not possible.
 
My rear hub motored bike (here) has a Nine Continent RH212 rear hub motor and the same (I think) microSHIFT super-short 9-speed drivetrain you have/like. I suspect all of the HG splined-equipped hub motors can accommodate it - 11/12-speed cassettes may be hit or miss.

I've also got a mid-motor bike with the same drivetrain, here. It has held up just fine - shifted sanely, and not while under full motor power.

Another thought regarding e-bikes, especially faster ones, is that IMO they're safer when dealing with/on heavy traffic roads - particularly when negotiating must-make left turns, across very busy intersections, or other bike-unfriendly dreaded situations.

If you're a regular on-road cyclist commuter I wouldn't discount the e-bike's on-demand speed advantage - yes, while suffering the weight disadvantage. And thanks for signaling your intentions and obeying traffic laws while riding on the (for the) public roads.
 
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When it comes to mid-drives on the reliability scale: Bafang, Tongsheng, and Toseven. The main drawback to Bafang is the lack of torque sensing, though posters have said you can make it a lot smoother by 'removing speed limits from PAS modes.'

Am I accurate so far?

My guess is that it will wind up Bafang - Toseven - TSDZ2B, with perhaps TSD2B a distant third. I've watched a couple of DM02 tear downs, and from what I've seen of my TSD22/TSDZ2B, the ToSeven appears more robust. Just an opinion. I've purchased a DM02 and it's in the project queue.

Where the Toseven seems behind is in software, The factory seems bedazzled by user requests for more speed and there are myriad firmware releases, beta versions that I am not going to touch, based on user feedback in the forums I've read. The base motor has 500W and can deliver 16A w/o melting. That's all I need. My TSDZ2 peaks at 11A, I am using third party OSF firmware in my TSDZ2, but that took a couple of years to refine.
 
My guess is that it will wind up Bafang - Toseven - TSDZ2B, with perhaps TSD2B a distant third. I've watched a couple of DM02 tear downs, and from what I've seen of my TSD22/TSDZ2B, the ToSeven appears more robust. Just an opinion. I've purchased a DM02 and it's in the project queue.

Where the Toseven seems behind is in software, The factory seems bedazzled by user requests for more speed and there are myriad firmware releases, beta versions that I am not going to touch, based on user feedback in the forums I've read. The base motor has 500W and can deliver 16A w/o melting. That's all I need. My TSDZ2 peaks at 11A, I am using third party OSF firmware in my TSDZ2, but that took a couple of years to refine.
I've noticed a low inventory for the DM02. That's either high demand, or they stopped making producing because of a fault reason, which would be a concern.

Regarding price and voltage flexibility, the DM02 seems the best deal as long as it proves reliable. I've talked with a person who said theirs bricked, but it's under warranty and being replaced by the reseller. Is that a frequent problem?

Customizability isn't so much a concern for me. I prefer to set and forget. I've learned to avoid the constant adjustment rabbit hole so I can spend more time on the road vs. in the the garage. :)
 
I'm still searching. So far, the friction drive offers the most overall flexibility, despite the obvious shortcomings.
You seem to have a lot more ebike history than was first apparent. You didn't like the BBS02B conversion you owned because it was too fast. You owned a single speed electric folder that climbed hills well. They do. What happens is you run out of gearing at 16-18 mph, which is OK, You also appear to be an N+1 bike owner, mot just a two bike guy,

I'm assuming it's more about room to store bikes rather than room on the budget. Throw a few hundred bucks then at a friction drive and tell us what happens? Should be good stuff and bad stuff. For me, the bad stuff is noise. I've got a front drive I won't ride much because it's too noisy.
 
You seem to have a lot more ebike history than was first apparent. You didn't like the BBS02B conversion you owned because it was too fast. You owned a single speed electric folder that climbed hills well. They do. What happens is you run out of gearing at 16-18 mph, which is OK, You also appear to be an N+1 bike owner, mot just a two bike guy,

I'm assuming it's more about room to store bikes rather than room on the budget. Throw a few hundred bucks then at a friction drive and tell us what happens? Should be good stuff and bad stuff. For me, the bad stuff is noise. I've got a front drive I won't ride much because it's too noisy.
Yes, I've been down the customization rabbit hole a few times, and I've wasted too much money. I'd rather have a long discussion (like here) and save $$$; talk is free, and this way, I make the most well-informed decision. Translation: My spouse is tired of me recycling bicycle stuff. :)

I didn't like the BBS02B because it felt like it had to be constantly used to be effective, like a moped. Whereas I desire a solution that I will just engage as needed and disengage like on flat roads, which are about 15-20 miles from my commute that has a 5-mile hilly return. The friction drive sounds reasonable on paper, but I'm skeptical about its hill assist ability, which is being shown to be questionable, and I live in a coastal area with a lot of fog. It's often the equivalent of rain-level moisture when riding around. I have two bicycles. One is a folder for travel, and the other is my hybrid commuter. The folder is awesome for tossing in a car and going far distances, but the hybrid is for everything else.

I hope that makes my intentions more clear.
 
My rear hub motored bike (here) has a Nine Continent RH212 rear hub motor and the same (I think) microSHIFT super-short 9-speed drivetrain you have/like. I suspect all of the HG splined-equipped hub motors can accommodate it - 11/12-speed cassettes may be hit or miss.

I've also got a mid-motor bike with the same drivetrain, here. It has held up just fine - shifted sanely, and not while under full motor power.

Another thought regarding e-bikes, especially faster ones, is that IMO they're safer when dealing with/on heavy traffic roads - particularly when negotiating must-make left turns, across very busy intersections, or other bike-unfriendly dreaded situations.

If you're a regular on-road cyclist commuter I wouldn't discount the e-bike's on-demand speed advantage - yes, while suffering the weight disadvantage. And thanks for signaling your intentions and obeying traffic laws while riding on the (for the) public roads.
Very nice and clean builds!

If I went mid-drive, like the DM02, would I have to change my RaceFace 30T narrow-wide chainring? I like how it offers very low but simplistic 1x9 gearing combined with the 11-38. I'm a super slow rider, stopping at every stop sign and red light. I probably average between 10-12 mph, often slower. I learned to ride super cautiously after getting hit by cars for the 5th time.
 
Thank you for the build comment - no S.O. or dependants in my case ... Just me, my shadow, and an e-bike collection.

Trying to bolt a 30T ring onto most quiet & non-external chain reduction add-on mid drives would require a special spider, and you'd end up with a horrific chain line - at least on your current bikes. Offset chain rings that clear the secondary gear case are required for a good chain line (on a 135mm O.L.D. frame), and the smallest readily available are around 40T.

The one kinda-sorta mid-drive motor exception is the CYC Photon, with its available, but proprietary 34T ring. I had a 34T ring on this bike, initially.
 
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Thank you for the build comment - no S.O. in my case ... Just me, my shadow, and an e-bike collection.

Trying to bolt a 30T ring onto most quiet & non-external chain reduction add-on mid drives would require a special spider, and you'd end up with a horrific chain line - at least on your current bikes. Offset chain rings that clear the secondary gear case are required for a good chain line (on a 135mm O.L.D. frame), and the smallest readily available are around 40T.

The one kinda-sorta mid-drive motor exception is the CYC Photon, with its available, but proprietary 34T ring. I had a 34T ring on this bike, initially.
That makes sense. Mine is a 30T narrow wide on the middle ring area of a previous 3x9 crankset. It shifts buttery smooth, so that's my fear of making it worse. It's the best shifting I've ever experienced. If I go mid-drive, I hope I can maintain the same quality of shifting.
 
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I'm super open to all ideas and options including ingesting loads of spinach like Popeye!
OK. My suggestion is to build an ebike for the purpose of you commuting and use your other two bikes for recreational rides and/or for the occasional hard effort commute.

Why?

1) I think the friction drives are very likely to be unsatisfactory.
2) Any converted ebike is going to have some degree of deficiency in how it affects one of you two bikes in normal riding. Converting one of you existing bikes could leave you with the worst of both worlds.
3) A fresh build lets you optimize for the intended purpose. Maybe that means a mid-drive for the hills and extra racks/panniers/etc so you can haul stuff back and forth to work or stop at the store on the way home. My first ebike was optimized for long miles and moderate hills with the occasional short steep hill. So it uses a direct drive rear wheel motor and has a very large battery. My second ebike is optimized for in-town errands and the ability to haul a fair bit of stuff up hills when needed. So i's a cargo bike with a mid-drive that can climb up an 18% grade easily. And the battery on it isn't very large.

That said, I understand your attraction to the friction drive units. And maybe you would be happy with one of them.
 
OK. My suggestion is to build an ebike for the purpose of you commuting and use your other two bikes for recreational rides and/or for the occasional hard effort commute.

Why?

1) I think the friction drives are very likely to be unsatisfactory.
2) Any converted ebike is going to have some degree of deficiency in how it affects one of you two bikes in normal riding. Converting one of you existing bikes could leave you with the worst of both worlds.
3) A fresh build lets you optimize for the intended purpose. Maybe that means a mid-drive for the hills and extra racks/panniers/etc so you can haul stuff back and forth to work or stop at the store on the way home. My first ebike was optimized for long miles and moderate hills with the occasional short steep hill. So it uses a direct drive rear wheel motor and has a very large battery. My second ebike is optimized for in-town errands and the ability to haul a fair bit of stuff up hills when needed. So i's a cargo bike with a mid-drive that can climb up an 18% grade easily. And the battery on it isn't very large.

That said, I understand your attraction to the friction drive units. And maybe you would be happy with one of them.
I appreciate that advice, but I really enjoy my hybrid. I would have to replicate its exact feel just for that purpose.

I'm confident I can get it to the point where it can serve two purposes. I have the will, so there must be a way. It's just a matter of finding that right balance. Plus, for the sanity of my spouse, I'm trying to keep my collection down to two bicycles. :)

The only thing I'm trying to decide is either mid-drive, hub, or friction. I'm fairly set to do some kind of conversion. I prefer to obsessively research instead of leaping — which is what I've done in the past and regretted, hence the growing size of this thread.
 
I think the friction drive will be underwhelming at best, and may not last if the OP is commuting daily for significant distances. the geared hub is the best option, and these should last 40,000 km + if treated nicely and will never need tuning from what your bike would need anyways.

The drawback of the hubmotor is the weight of the controller/battery and finding a good mounting point. Also I don't like my ebikes to look like ebikes so the controller, lcd screen and battery need to be hidden. The latest iteration of my current build has the battery, controller and lcd screen all wired and bundled nicely and contained in a small pannier bag. when I want to ride, I need only connect the controller/battery assembly to the motor, turn on the system and ride. my small geared motor only adds 4 lb to the bike and freewheels like a cassette unpowered so I notice no difference from a hybrid with no motor. My work commute is a 30km round trip. I still get tons of exercise as I pedal hard throughout the journey. It'd take me 45+ minutes to do it unpowered but I can do it in 30 min with the assist and still get a good workout. People will day that having the weight in a pannier makes the bike harder to control. They are right, in that I need to be careful not to tip the bike too far when at stoplights, but tbf, I don't notice the imbalance when riding. I'm not trying to win the tour, so giving up a bit of geometry for a stealthy build that is easy to convert to standard bike is well worth it for me. My next build will likely be with the Q100H, which is under 3 lb and is the size of a drum brake. Drawing less than 400W means less battery and smaller controller, saving weight.
 
.... I'm trying to keep my collection down to two bicycles. :)

The only thing I'm trying to decide is either mid-drive, hub, or friction. .....
Seems that from the above, and that you also want easy on/off mounting, that a front geared hub motor would be the most logical choice. Although, that is just my opinion.

A friction drive (along with that cassette mounted drive) would be experimental. Meaning you would need to buy and try it. From the accounts I've read of friction drives they have a problem area that requires continual attention.
 
Seems that from the above, and that you also want easy on/off mounting, that a front geared hub motor would be the most logical choice. Although, that is just my opinion.

A friction drive (along with that cassette mounted drive) would be experimental. Meaning you would need to buy and try it. From the accounts I've read of friction drives they have a problem area that requires continual attention.
Yes, a front hub would be ideal, but I have a carbon fork.

"Fork type Carbon fiber unicrown with brake mounts, low-rider carrier mounts and forged dropouts with single eyelets
Frame type Reynolds 520 double-butted chromoly main tubes, extended head tube with reinforced collars, double tapered cromo stays, forged dropouts with eyelets"

Would it handle a front ehub?
 
Yeah, that might be a problem, but you should be able to replace the fork with something suitable for a modest motor.
Or you could try a friction drive and let us know how it works out.

A mid-drive is a dedicated ebike. Though the good ones pedal easy when unpowered, outside of the added weight.
My fav pavement cruiser would be a rear direct drive hub, with regen and torque sensing PAS.
 
Yeah, that might be a problem, but you should be able to replace the fork with something suitable for a modest motor.
Or you could try a friction drive and let us know how it works out.

A mid-drive is a dedicated ebike. Though the good ones pedal easy when unpowered, outside of the added weight.
My fav pavement cruiser would be a rear direct drive hub, with regen and torque sensing PAS.
I'm trying to avoid that 'try it out' method anymore. My bike rides exceptionally well. My understanding is that the carbon fork has a nicer feel than steel, but that's an option. I think I'm better off with mid-drive, rear, or friction. Though friction is losing more appeal as I hear warnings about it. I take what everyone says here seriously. I respect the expertise.

As my age progresses, I may want to hit the throttle more. I had to admit that to myself, making the rear hub or mid-drive more appealing.
 
Would [my bike's carbon fork] handle a front ehub?
I don't think this question is answerable - there's hesitation for adding motors on carbon forks/frames, I believe, mainly related to concerns about the abrupt failure mode of the material. But who knows how your fork is engineered for increased stresses, what with the low rider mounts and the like.

Just my layman's take on it.
 
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