Aero mudguards. Yes they look gastly but they do work.

amberwolf said:

You might ask Warren about fairings and whatnot, for before/after, etc.

Warren

endless-sphere.com

Click to expand...

My total personal experience with fairings was running a Zzipper fairing on a RANS V-Rex, set up with dual 26" wheels. I ran it one winter. It was great for keeping warm in frigid temps, but funneled road, and drivetrain, noise up to my ears. I was slightly faster on the flats, slower uphill, and too fast downhill. Riding in hot, humid Virginia summer wasn't comfortable. Fairings tend to work better for really strong riders, or with a motor.

PaPaSteve said:

The design parameter of a streamlined vehicle is to slip through the air with minimum drag with zero lift.
Lift means the tires no longer touch the ground . . . a dangerous situation on public roadways.
Whale Tubercles can be an advantage for wing shapes such as for lifting or power generation devices.
Not clear to me how they apply to a fuselage shape.
Perhaps you can build a demonstration model ?

Click to expand...

The velomobile can be thought of as a short bit of vertical wing...
So one would want to tubercle-ise the front and canopy bit of a velo vertically.
The pictures here should give you some idea of my idea.
Touche! on the demo model

I do NB that an aircraft fabric covered frame of the right shape should 'auto create' tubercles at speed.
It's also a very light and neat way of doing things like velomobiles, or the aircraft makers wouldn't have bothered.

All the trailing surfaces in this pic are painted fabric over a frame.


Nowadays you get pre-coloured fabrics that you pull tight over a frame and then iron to shrink them, pulling them 'as tight' and neat as the above pic.
It's discussed in detail on EcoModder
It probably deserves it's own thread now I think about!?

The Toecutter said:

I've always wondered how a practical version of LiveForPhysics' "Death Bike" would perform, with aero bits added and full suspension. You could fit a 4 kWh pack on something like this with it still being light enough to pedal.

Click to expand...

I'm glad you dropped in Toecutter.
I've always admired your velos and especially your vision for them.

The Toecutter said:

What did you use for mounts and/or where can you source them? My friend and I do not have access to his shop at the moment, so I need something that is a bolt-on fit and requires no fabrication. I want to put this type of faring on "The Rolling Firehazard". I expect a modest range increase and mostly operate it at 30-ish mph.

Click to expand...

The 'baby chairs on backward as fairings' mentioned earlier have mounting brackets that might be persuaded to work easily..?

Speaking of light (and neat): Do check out my reply to PaPaSteve above on aircraft fabric coverings for velos.

Warren said:

My total personal experience with fairings was running a Zzipper fairing on a RANS V-Rex, set up with dual 26" wheels. I ran it one winter. It was great for keeping warm in frigid temps, but funneled road, and drivetrain, noise up to my ears. I was slightly faster on the flats, slower uphill, and too fast downhill. Riding in hot, humid Virginia summer wasn't comfortable. Fairings tend to work better for really strong riders, or with a motor.

Click to expand...

Thx for popping in Warren

Motors is where we're at!
They increase top speed already, where fairings come into their own, not to mention extra range.
The 'slower uphill' is less of an issue and the weight penalty might be offset if the fairing doubles as a battery box.

I was hoping you might have some experience with aero mudguards.
Spinning cylinders act like and have been tested as wings, meaning the wind tends to lift one's wheels.
Besides the aero advantage of cutting the 2x speed squared drag, there is some talk of better grip and a more ...er grounded feel when using them..?
Anyone?

The Lightning F40 recumbent has a streamlined shape created from doped Dacron cloth stretch over light weight aluminum tube frame.
An early version set the fastest time at the 1988, 89, 90 Argus Tour, Cape Town South Africa powered by Lloyd Wright.
Wimpie van der Merwe won on a F40 in 1993.
The main bike frame(s) I welded.

Lightning F40

Cape Town Tour

Note the top covered front fender.
Picture was taken at the Napa Cherry Pie Criterium always held on presidents day weekend in February.
Won this event 8 times with various versions of this bike setting the course record.
Bike weight is under 30 pounds.

amberwolf said:

An additional 5mph at that speed is typically a fair bit of power required to accomplish. (for some things, it would take up to twice as much power).

How much power (guesstimate, anyway) does that one take to get to the 70mph?




How many wh/mile does it normally take, without the fairing?

Click to expand...

The Voodoo is rated at 18,000 watts peak output. I haven't tried to do a real precise comparison with/without the fairing, just a few top speed runs from a full charge before I put it on, and after.

Same with the range estimates. Just comparing notes I'd taken before and after, never actually running it dry, just to about the same battery level (25%). I did use the same route, though. The handlebars are about 3" lower, to allow the fairing to fit, and only one rear view mirror instead of two, as well.

The Toecutter said:

I've always wondered how a practical version of LiveForPhysics' "Death Bike" would perform, with aero bits added and full suspension. You could fit a 4 kWh pack on something like this with it still being light enough to pedal.


What did you use for mounts and/or where can you source them? My friend and I do not have access to his shop at the moment, so I need something that is a bolt-on fit and requires no fabrication. I want to put this type of faring on "The Rolling Firehazard". I expect a modest range increase and mostly operate it at 30-ish mph.

Click to expand...

On the Voodoo I used parts of old Avid cantilever brakes ( the fully adjustable ones, all billet machined) and some 1/4" threaded spacers to take screws through the original windshield mount holes on the fairing. The other parts of the brake assembly bolts to the factory rear view mirror mounts on the brake lever mounts. The bottom mounts use some aircraft turnbuckles I had, to Ebay fork clamps.

On the smaller bikes, I scrounged shifter mounts and brake mounts, made brackets to fit.

I'll post some detail pics here shortly.

Here are some pics of fairing bracketry, from three different bikes. Sorry about the background clutter.

One thing I should mention about these cafe racer fairings is that the edges are not smooth and round when they arrive... just as cast. I used 1000 grit sand paper, wet, on a firm but flexible foam block, to round the edges and smooth the curves of all parts before assembly.

Your fabrication work is swell
Can't recall seeing any motorcycles mounting the fairing on the forks.
It may be a handful in crosswinds.
My first attempt to do a fork / handlebar mounted fairing was this bike :



Originally the fairing was mounted 4" further forward and was virtually unrideable.
Moving it back 4" made all the difference.
Note how much fairing is behind the steering axis as a means to balance the effect of what's in front of the axis.

EZ Racer with zZipper fairing has a similar method where there is more fairing behind the steering axis verse in front.



Best regards

PaPaSteve said:

Your fabrication work is swell
Can't recall seeing any motorcycles mounting the fairing on the forks.
It may be a handful in crosswinds.
My first attempt to do a fork / handlebar mounted fairing was this bike :

View attachment 364651

Originally the fairing was mounted 4" further forward and was virtually unrideable.
Moving it back 4" made all the difference.
Note how much fairing is behind the steering axis as a means to balance the effect of what's in front of the axis.

EZ Racer with zZipper fairing has a similar method where there is more fairing behind the steering axis verse in front.

Best regards

Click to expand...

Thanks. I've been doing various forms of metal fabrication for half a century, starting with jewelry making as a teen. Gunsmithing, antique car restoration, decorative blacksmith work, race buggy parts, truck bodies,motorcycle racks, custom lighting...But I also have a heck of a stash of "I'll use that someday" stuff, I've started trying to use it up. I also have a local community bike store that accepts and resells old bike donations, they have bins full of bike parts I scrounge regularly.

Bikini fairings are always fork mounted, they don't seem to have much problem with side winds, they typically have large cutaways around the bars. I rode with a "Edge" fairing ( just about like this one, but less side cutaway) on a a forty mile a day bicycle commute in all weather for a couple years. The fairing made me faster (headwind or tailwind) and let me dress one layer thinner in cold or wet weather. Half the route was coastal, and almost always windy.

I think that the gyro effect of full size front wheels (especially on a motorcycle) helps damp/slow any side wind effects.

That fairing you've pictured probably has twice the side area of a typical bikini fairing.

That vintage fairing site I linked to has a category of "dustbin" fairings.Those are frame mounted, but still notorious for evil handling if center of pressure isn't balanced against C of G correctly. My understanding is that tailboxes /cones are also prone to nasty behavior in side winds. But very effective for aero improvement

Never heard of the term "Bikini Fairing"
Learn something new every day.
Thanks for explanation.
Tail box on a bicycle, It's possible to have too much overhang that causes poor handling.
Not something I've experienced though.

PaPaSteve said:

Tail box on a bicycle, It's possible to have too much overhang that causes poor handling.
Not something I've experienced though.

Click to expand...

There has been some research on... er... flappa-doo-dats that are said to create a smaller wake behind stalled wings.
That equates to less drag from a short = 'stalled' Tail Box with zero input energy rqd for the device..!

A video:

And The Paper
edit: Correction:
"...Specifically, an airfoil with the all-flap system experiences poststall ...drag reduction of up to 31%, and enhanced pitch or longitudinal stability..."

That looks like a couple of 'bit thicker than paper' vertical plastic strips with the leading edge glued to the tailbox.
It might be worth a test as it's easy to try with a temporary glue like a Pritt Stick or somesuch.

(More info and lots of videos here)

PaPaSteve said:

The Lightning F40 recumbent has a streamlined shape created from doped Dacron cloth stretch over light weight aluminum tube frame.
An early version set the fastest time at the 1988, 89, 90 Argus Tour, Cape Town South Africa powered by Lloyd Wright.
Wimpie van der Merwe won on a F40 in 1993.
The main bike frame(s) I welded.

Lightning F40

Cape Town Tour

Click to expand...

Not trying to belittle the fabric coverings PaPaSteve (and everyone), but provide the info and 'how to' to improve them:

If the aircraft fabric technique where used to cover the F40 is would be a whole lot neater (saleable) and even more aero.
NB that there are no creases or flapping in these aircraft, they look factory and that this is true at speed too.
I think when most people see a fabric skin flapping in the wind its straight up; "No. Just NO! I don't care how much more aero that might be, I WON'T be seen dead in that thing!"

ie: Had the F40 been covered in (shiny colour of your choice) Oratex Aircraft Fabric and ironed, it would look as neat and professional as similarly covered aircraft do.

I hope you/everyone finds this info useful.
I'd want to swipe these glider/sailplane fuselages if I were you!

Before the F40 there was the X-2
Several video and article links on this page
The biggest trouble with extraordinary well made light weight vehicles is the person who has enough money to own one spends their money on other things instead.
Fun to create and ride but a poor way to make income.
Thus the reason for lower cost construction methods like doped Dacron, spandex, coroplast and fiberglass instead of using Carbon, Kevlar and Nomex honeycomb.
Wood frame covered with ironed shrunk fabric falls apart when exposed to rough roadways.

Logic11 said:

Not trying to belittle the fabric coverings PaPaSteve (and everyone), but provide the info and 'how to' to improve them:

If the aircraft fabric technique where used to cover the F40 is would be a whole lot neater (saleable) and even more aero.
NB that there are no creases or flapping in these aircraft, they look factory and that this is true at speed too.
I think when most people see a fabric skin flapping in the wind its straight up; "No. Just NO! I don't care how much more aero that might be, I WON'T be seen dead in that thing!"

ie: Had the F40 been covered in (shiny colour of your choice) Oratex Aircraft Fabric and ironed, it would look as neat and professional as similarly covered aircraft do.

I hope you/everyone finds this info useful.
I'd want to swipe these glider/sailplane fuselages if I were you!

Click to expand...

A couple things tend to be forgotten when trying to apply aircraft shapes and techniques to HPVs.

With wheeled vehicle the ground you are moving across is part of the whole aerodynamic picture, there's interference drag and turbulence under the vehicle, at the very least.

The nose needs to be much fatter (to allow a crank be pedaled ) than just room for feet (unless you want to deal with the other issues that come with a linear drive)

Road vibration, shock, and punctures are much more of an issue on the road than in the air.

On the ground, there are thing to hit if the wind moves you around much. Not so much in the air.

Two wheel streamlining has to allow feet( or substitute) to be deployed as a brace at stops (not a problem with trikes)

classicalgas said:

A couple things tend to be forgotten when trying to apply aircraft shapes and techniques to HPVs.

Click to expand...

It's almost like there are lots of reasons that fully faired pedal and ultralight vehicles are vanishingly rare compared to open ones. Go figure.

Chalo said:

It's almost like there are lots of reasons that fully faired pedal and ultralight vehicles are vanishingly rare compared to open ones. Go figure.

Click to expand...

It's not like people prefer shelter from the weather when moving themselves around.

Or that vested interests with massive amounts of money would prefer we keep using two tons of metal to do that.

Or that micro cars haven't been popular when fuel costs were high in the past.

PaPaSteve said:

The Lightning F40 recumbent has a streamlined shape created from doped Dacron cloth stretch over light weight aluminum tube frame.
An early version set the fastest time at the 1988, 89, 90 Argus Tour, Cape Town South Africa powered by Lloyd Wright.
Wimpie van der Merwe won on a F40 in 1993.
The main bike frame(s) I welded.

Lightning F40

Cape Town Tour

Click to expand...

Not trying to belittle the fabric coverings PaPaSteve (and everyone), but provide the info and 'how to' to improve them:

If the aircraft fabric technique where used to cover the F40 is would be a whole lot neater (saleable) and even more aero.
NB that there are no creases or flapping in these aircraft, they look factory and that this is true at speed too.
I think when most people see a fabric skin flapping in the wind its straight up; "No. Just NO! I don't care how much more aero that might be, I WON'T be seen dead in that thing!"

ie: Had the F40 been covered in (shiny colour of your choice) Oratex Aircraft Fabric and ironed, it would look as neat and professional as similarly covered aircraft do.

I hope you/everyone finds this info useful.
I'd want to swipe these glider/sailplane fuselages if I were you!

Chalo said:

It's almost like there are lots of reasons that fully faired pedal and ultralight vehicles are vanishingly rare compared to open ones. Go figure.

Click to expand...

So... Here you are again looking for a nice fun argument to enjoy at our expense!

If you pay me; I'll be happy to argue with you.
Lets say $10 for 10 minutes?
Would you like my banking details?
Or would you prefer to just keep baiting on forums as you're sure to find someone obliging for a far better price..?

From past experience, it's people who have to play 'yes man' all day at work and get home to relationships where the spouse wears the pants and it's yet more: "yes dear. no dear. 3 bags full dear" that exhibit this... peculiar behavior.
Have you considered changing jobs and/or partners as an alternative?


Acceptance and Uptake:
People know that a pedestrian comes 2nd in a collision with a car.
So a small, light, low, pedestrian sized vehicle is instinctively (and correctly) perceived as less safe.
ie: 99.9999% of the population wants a vehicle that is sized/weighted to compete (or beat) the other vehicles on the road in a collision.
The ONLY way velo type micro cars will ever be accepted is if the world wakes up to discover that their car has mysteriously been replaced by a velo.
"But that's ok because so has everyone else's, so I stand as good a chance in a collision"

As far as practicality and ride-ability goes; no-one is arguing with you.
We agree! ok..?
These things only really work un-frighteningly when there is no (cross) wind and sadly, wont just stand there, self balancing at an intersection.
A lot of them are also not to people's taste as far as looks go.

Yet here we are; a small group, discussing how best to overcome these challenges.
Yes; an easy target for your ...'needs'. Would a list of other fringe groups be useful? Perhaps the flat earthers??

Thanks for all your great ideas.
Somehow the "Been there, Done that" message isn't getting through.
Decades of experience has yielded positive results.

PaPaSteve said:

Thanks for all your great ideas.
Somehow the "Been there, Done that" message isn't getting through.
Decades of experience has yielded positive results.

View attachment 364769View attachment 364770View attachment 364771

Click to expand...

Nice machines. Center of lift way back, if any with the doors off.
Front wheel well forward in the body.
Low COG.

I see that's a banked track..?
Could one venture forth into town an a breezy day say with confidence?
Looks pretty good too.

Logic11 said:

I see that's a banked track..?

Click to expand...

Yes, a velodrome

Logic11 said:

Could one venture forth into town an a breezy day say with confidence?

Click to expand...

Absolutely. Way more miles on the open road than at the track.

Logic11 said:

Looks pretty good too.

Click to expand...

THX

Monocoque construction, Epoxy, Carbon / Kevlar with foam and/or Nomex core.
Any welded metal parts fabricated from titanium.
35~45 pounds.

Coyote videos Short on the road videos shot with hand held camera before GoPro's were a "thing"
One hand steering, one hand filming.

PaPaSteve said:

Yes, a velodrome

Absolutely. Way more miles on the open road than at the track.

THX

Monocoque construction, Epoxy, Carbon / Kevlar with foam and/or Nomex core.
Any welded metal parts fabricated from titanium.
35~45 pounds.

Coyote videos Short on the road videos shot with hand held camera before GoPro's were a "thing"
One hand steering, one hand filming.

View attachment 364800

Click to expand...

Is Kevlar the Aramid fiber used in F1 'tubs'? (I don't recall what fiber is used)
IIRC the Kevlar? can take the very sharp bending as happens in collisions and goes inside the carbon outer shell?
Either way; your chances of surviving a collision should be vastly improved if you're strapped in?

Titanium:
OK!
There are now Send Cut Send type places that will 3D print your design for you. I can find the links in my bookmarks if you like.

So the chassis is designed as a load/weight bearing part of the structure?
Any suspension type stuff in the design?
As I recall designing such is no walk in the park and requires CAD specific to the process??

That's one high tech body, not to be tossed out at the end of the season!
Do you still have this velo?
Is it EV assisted!?

Correct, Kevlar is an Aramid.
Carbon for stiffness and Aramid to prevent the Carbon from shattering into a thousand pieces.
Suspension is a custom designed airbag seat cushion about 4" (100mm) thick.
Stress analysis was based on previous metal perimeter style (cage) recumbent frames.

Coyote has not been electrified.
Although it has been considered . . .
Adding a motor would be a bit too much weight and too fast for the brakes it has.
A cherished museum piece that sees little use these days.
Metal framed bikes are more easily motorized, fast enough to win so that's what has been used instead.

PaPaSteve said:

Correct, Kevlar is an Aramid.
Carbon for stiffness and Aramid to prevent the Carbon from shattering into a thousand pieces.
Suspension is a custom designed airbag seat cushion about 4" (100mm) thick.
Stress analysis was based on previous metal perimeter style (cage) recumbent frames.
View attachment 364821
Coyote has not been electrified.
Although it has been considered . . .
Adding a motor would be a bit too much weight and too fast for the brakes it has.
A cherished museum piece that sees little use these days.
Metal framed bikes are more easily motorized, fast enough to win so that's what has been used instead.

Click to expand...

Ye that metal frame is all: Stretch one leg of the triangle to bend it. (something few comprehend!)
And cleverly placed to serve multiple functions.

How you got from "Stress analysis" of "previous metal perimeter style (cage) recumbent frames" is my new question!?
Stress Analysis Engineering software??

Adding a motor would be a bit too much weight and too fast for the brakes it has.

Click to expand...

No it wouldn't!-No it wouldn't!
And bigger brakes + there's regen!

It's high enough and practical enough and a SAFE construction!
Perhaps a roll bar and openable side impact bars and auto 'training wheels'
It should be dusted off, modified and perhaps get some temporary experimental Styrofoam tubercles on the nose!

Clever/easy auto training wheels from 28min43: