Simple practicle (cross)wind assist and better aero for any bike

[PaPaSteve]

And yet anybody, pro or not, can ride competently on the first try if it's a regular bike. No vastly different results there.

Not so at all.
Two quick examples.
My oldest sister never learned to ride a bike.
Our youngest daughter took longer to learn then her siblings.
Personally, there are no two wheeled vehicles I have struggled to ride.
Some versions I like better than others but none have been any trouble to learn.
Your recumbent phobia is well documented.

 

[Chalo]

Personally, there are no two wheeled vehicles I have struggled to ride.
Some versions I like better than others but none have been any trouble to learn.
Your recumbent phobia is well documented.

Phobias are irrational. I have built and ridden many mutant bikes and trikes over the years, and accumulated hundreds of thousands of kms on all kinds of pedal contraptions, so my aversion is learned with real experience and observation, trial and error.

'Bents are the province of graybeard whiteys who think they know better than 150+ years of the brightest minds and most intense iterative development in industrial history. All I can say to that is, "yessuh you rite suh."

There are plenty of good reasons that 'bents constitute a fraction of one percent of bikes, and even less than that of bike miles ridden. Some are related to livability, but many are related to vehicle dynamics.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Phobias are irrational.

Correct . . . phobias are irrational.
Show some strength and growth, correct the irrationality.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

I have yet to meet a 'bent bike that wasn't an effed-up thing to ride, even if ridden well.

Chalo, do you think this might be due to your having a well-worn set of expectations and responses laid into your nervous system due to lengthy experience with uprights?

I ride a trike now due to risks to some particular joints but I rode a Cruzbike for a while, and noticed that it was half like an upright and half like something else due to what is essentially a rider position rotated by 90 degrees - the conflict left me with some actions that were familiar and worked crossed by some actions that went way off in responses I didn't expect.

The conflicting experience was more daunting due to my ingrained expectations. Could this be true for what you are writing?

 

[amberwolf]

And yet anybody, pro or not, can ride competently on the first try if it's a regular bike.

Not me. I never rode a regular bike very well, and crashed often as a kid (less often as an adult, but mostly because I'd gotten long enough and strong enough legs to be able to push off the ground when I started to fall over).

But I'm not normal, and have many defective brain and body parts.

 

[Chalo]

The conflicting experience was more daunting due to my ingrained expectations. Could this be true for what you are writing?

I believe that is a factor. I also believe that if it were the only factor, we'd see many, many more recumbents on the streets and roads. If even 10% of bikes were recumbent layout, I'd be willing to accept that it's probably a me thing. But we're coming up on 100 years of approximately everybody saying "nah". That's not a me thing. It's a 'bents are busted thing.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

I'm not normal, and have many defective brain and body parts

Au Contraire!

That IS normal. Look at how many people drive cars.

 

[Warren]

But we're coming up on 100 years of approximately everybody saying "nah". That's not a me thing. It's a bicycles are busted thing.

Fixed that for you.

According to most recent data, only around 0.6% of adults in the United States regularly commute to work by bicycle, meaning a very small percentage of people use cycling as their primary mode of transportation to work.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Fixed that for you.

According to most recent data, only around 0.6% of adults in the United States regularly commute to work by bicycle, meaning a very small percentage of people use cycling as their primary mode of transportation to work.

Exactly . . . self propelled transportation and their cousins, E-bikes are very much a minority.
1) Just because a concept isn't embraced by the masses doesn't mean it's not valid.
2) Just because one person ( Chalo ) can't understand a concept ( feet forward - 2 wheels ) doesn't mean it's not valid.

 

[neptronix]

'Bents are the province of graybeard whiteys who think they know better than 150+ years of the brightest minds and most intense iterative development in industrial history. All I can say to that is, "yessuh you rite suh."

Sounds like we blew through your argument juice and now we're just picking up the crummy stuff at the bottom of the tank

 

[Chalo]

Fixed that for you.

According to most recent data, only around 0.6% of adults in the United States regularly commute to work by bicycle, meaning a very small percentage of people use cycling as their primary mode of transportation to work.

So, you're saying that a mode that less than one percent, of less than one percent, of people choose, is somehow better than the 100+ times more common option?

Vegetarians are in a tiny minority, but they're right. Breatharians are in a much, much tinier minority, because they don't adhere to observable reality. Socialist Americans are in a tiny minority, but they're right. Khmer Rouge Americans are in a much, much tinier minority, because they're cuckoo birds. That's the kind of team you're siding with here.

 

[Chalo]

Sounds like we blew through your argument juice and now we're just picking up the crummy stuff at the bottom of the tank

View attachment 363346

Well, you probably know I've worked in bike shops a very long time. You may not know that my honey worked in a recumbent shop doing sales and mechanicking. I'm correctly identifying the clientele, because I've observed them directly in volumes that reduce the chance of sample error. They don't hear factual information, they disregard expert advice, and they pretty neatly fit into a single age and ethnic cohort.

 

[PaPaSteve]

So, you're saying that a mode that less than one percent, of less than one percent, of people choose, is somehow better than the 100+ times more common option?

Vegetarians are in a tiny minority, but they're right. Breatharians are in a much, much tinier minority, because they don't adhere to observable reality. Socialist Americans are in a tiny minority, but they're right. Khmer Rouge Americans are in a much, much tinier minority, because they're cuckoo birds. That's the kind of team you're siding with here.

Conflicted much ?
First your argument was mass acceptance is what makes a concept correct.
Common knowledge is 99.4% of American society is choosing automobiles to commute to work so . . . they must be the correct group ?
Now your argument is micro acceptance is what makes a concept correct.

Perhaps a clear thinking mind might accept micro powered, feet forward vehicles as valid mobility ?

63% of my working life the commute was by bicycle.
Included in this is 25 years on recumbents.
The favorite designs, I found to be faster and safer than any upright models.

 

[Chalo]

Feet-first bikes have been around longer than a human lifetime now, constantly reintroduced by folks who apparently think nobody else has tried them and determined empirically that they are lacking. Yet there has never, in any place or in any time period, been broad (or even niche) adoption of them. It's not a coincidence; it's not for lack of availability; it's not for technical or industrial reasons. It's because their inherent problems outweigh their merits, by a lot.

 

[PaPaSteve]

So says the person who openly admits to fear of feet forward designs.

Evolution happens to all things including bicycles and people.
One of the museums where my bikes were included had a large display of bicycle headset badges of mostly defunct companies.
Several hundred bike brands.
While most viewers would reveled in the art of the pieces, what I saw was a graveyard full of headstones knowing full well my gravestone will be there eventually.
That's perfectly fine.
The recumbent bikes took me lots of places, museums, galleries, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio, wins at race tracks in USA and other countries, bought a house, all 4 kids went to college and 3 advanced to university.
Success comes in many forms.

Wishing you peace happiness success in your endeavors.

 

[Logic11]

Er... excuse me... now that the dust has settled...

Speaking of a spoke attached, self adjusting, small wind turbine; did anyone even notice:

For a 60 cm wheel X2, in a 9 m/s (global average) wind you get a whole 268 watts!

https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/7.0/png/unicode/64/1f632.png[/IMG]

Wind Turbine Calculator

The wind turbine calculator finds the power output, efficiency, RPM, torque, and revenue of a wind turbine (either HAVT or VAWT).

www.omnicalculator.com

Now thats heading into small E-bike motor territory!!​

Simple practicle (cross)wind assist and better aero for any bike

:) Sounds nutZ! But bear with me and look at this: https://nullwinds.com/pages/spoke-fins Now those are cheap and nasty ass looking things, but the science is legit: They make the spokes more aero and the bike less susceptible to crosswinds. Imagine a strong crosswind at 90 degrees to your...

endless-sphere.com

That's based on a turbine efficiency of 30%...?
Thoughts? (Does every 'get' the self adjusting spring loading thing??)


neptronix:
I also suggested elliptical steering gearing as a means of fixing twitchy steering at speed, while keeping the ability for sharp turns at low speeds here:

Simple practicle (cross)wind assist and better aero for any bike

:) Sounds nutZ! But bear with me and look at this: https://nullwinds.com/pages/spoke-fins Now those are cheap and nasty ass looking things, but the science is legit: They make the spokes more aero and the bike less susceptible to crosswinds. Imagine a strong crosswind at 90 degrees to your...

endless-sphere.com

Also none of that pushing the handlebars off (center) to the right to turn left clumsiness caused by having to extend them backwards to reach them.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Three streamlined bikes that have extensive mileage on public roads.
1) 40lbs
2) 45lbs
3) with electric assist, solar panels and lead batteries 55lbs.

 

[Chalo]

Man, talk about an early ride in a coffin. That's worse than a car.

Would you draft the ass of a horse because it's more aerodynamic that way?

 

[PaPaSteve]

Says the guy who doesn't believe in wearing helmets.

Wisdom suggests faster, more efficient vehicles should consider advanced safety systems.
Full body crash protection.
Vehicle 1 has a metal safety cage the rider sits inside of.
Vehicle 2 is Carbon / Kevlar / foam core composite monocoque as per modern top level racecars.
Vehicle 3 while not full enclosed does provide some side protection.
Yes . . . they have been crash tested at speed and also hit by inattentive drivers in cars, bent bikes but no hospital trips required.

Unlike an upright bike, with these designs it is virtually impossible to go over the bars.
Upper body, collar bones and head are the most common injuries for the upright cyclist.

BTW . . . my one hour is over 44 mph and 200 meter sprint is over 62 . . . the horse would be doing the drafting.

 

[neptronix]

Completely agree with that.

I really like the bottom pictured bike because it still has some ease of getting in/out and is more accessible to the average person than all about squeezing more efficiency out of the human shape. The protection looks fantastic. It's an inspiration.

What's so funny is that when riding my recumbent it's all happy waves and questions from random people out on the street, like you arrived on the bike of the future, and you are a celebrity for a moment.

Then you get around some hardcore bicyclist guys and you get this attitude:



At this point i find the polarization to be so bizarre that it's paradoxically crossed the line into being funny.

 

[Logic11]

View attachment 363378

Is that a universal cross similar to the ones in car steering columns where the steering shaft bends back towards you PaPaSteve?

I guess so? So than you have to hold the handlebars up as well as turn them??

 

[Logic11]

Man, talk about an early ride in a coffin. That's worse than a car.

Would you draft the ass of a horse because it's more aerodynamic that way?

'Would you' start an argument for the love of a good argument..?

 

[Logic11]

View attachment 363378

Oh and: If a universal cross:

Constant Velocity (CV) Joint: Working, History, Components & Importance

What is a Constant Velocity (CV) Joint? Vehicles of all types are comprised of small components that, might not get too much attention but plays a significant role in safe driving and operational p…

theengineeringblog.com

 

[PaPaSteve]

Is that a universal cross similar to the ones in car steering columns where the steering shaft bends back towards you PaPaSteve?

I guess so? So than you have to hold the handlebars up as well as turn them??

No, not a CV joint.
On a bicycle when the hand position is behind the steering pivot the movement is referred to as "tiller".
Like a small sailing boat where the rudder is in the water, the pivot axis is on the stern, the control handle that protrudes forward is called the "tiller".
To turn left the riders hands move to the right.
In this bicycle example where the fairing is mounted to the steering there is an asset of a "weather vane" effect that self stabilizes the bike in a cross wind.
This is required numerous experiments and ample patience to find the "sweet spot".

 

[Logic11]

No, not a CV joint.
On a bicycle when the hand position is behind the steering pivot the movement is referred to as "tiller".
Like a small sailing boat where the rudder is in the water, the pivot axis is on the stern, the control handle that protrudes forward is called the "tiller".
To turn left the riders hands move to the right.
In this bicycle example where the fairing is mounted to the steering there is an asset of a "weather vane" effect that self stabilizes the bike in a cross wind.
This is required numerous experiments and ample patience to find the "sweet spot".

Thx for sharing!

The fairing "weather vane" effect is something I hadn't considered. That puts a whole new light on Tiller steering.

I assume any 'get the bike out of a tight parking spot' or wherever a large steering angle is required is accomplished while off the bike??