1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

[donn]

The only drawback is CA3 cruise control. The regen brake alone does not disengage CA3 cruise.

What happens? I assume it does interrupt the cruise function - maybe it's too early in the morning, but I can't picture the motor both driving ahead and braking to send current in the other direction, at the same time. And then when you release the regen control, the motor returns to cruise control? I'm not sure, I might like that.

Interesting that the Phaserunner itself apparently doesn't support cruise control, as some other controllers do. Looks like it's designed to require CA3, so full function on stuff like interaction with cruise control depends on running everything through CA3.

 

[john61ct]

I consider CAv3 pretty mandatory anyway. Pricing on easily tuned controllers with those feature sets would be pretty high?

Wouldn't it be nice if a magic add-on like CA3 helped automate the tuning process, for the likes of ASI BAC and Sevcon?

 

[donn]

I consider CAv3 pretty mandatory anyway. Pricing on easily tuned controllers with those feature sets would be pretty high?

I wish I could tell you how much I paid for my "Infineon KH6xx" controller, but it was part of a package. A fraction of what a Phaserunner will cost you, for sure. I'm not saying it has all features of a Phaserunner, and specifically it doesn't have the variable rate regen that we've been talking about. I have a CA3, and of course it doesn't supply variable rate regen either - I suppose that really has to be built into the controller. On the other hand, I don't need to plug any controls into the CA3, they're all handled by the controller - throttle, selection between three throttle ranges, ebrake activated regen, cruise control with ebrake shutoff. Cruise control just seems like kind of an odd thing to leave off ... I don't know the market so well, but isn't that kind of the top end?

 

[BlueSeas]

On the question "what happens on cruise?". The variable regen input (thumb throttle) directly connected to the Phaserunner overrides the throttle input. Regen has priority in the Phaserunner. But since the CA3 without an Ebrake input signal, it doesn't know about the stop. At a full stop on regen alone, when you stop supplying the regen command, the CA3 will immediately resume the cruise setting. I think this could and should be fixed in the CA3 programming. Either 1) by sensing the regen charge or 2) automatically deactivating cruise if speed falls below like 8 mph.

The PR/CA3 is a premium package. Designed by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. It won't be standard on $1000-1500 Ebikes anytime soon. What you get is infinite configuration possibilities and data to analyze your choices.

I'm new to this...but would argue there is no longer a cost effective reason to DIY a basic Ebike. What's the minimum cost of a decent battery/motor/controller (with a warranty and support) to install on the beater bike you have sitting around? Pretty close to a finished Ebike. The main risk is which of these company's will survive? We don't know yet. So until then, the PR/CA3 is cheap insurance. Or use a Baserunner and give up the display,

 

[500WhatsThat]

I just completed my GMAC8T / Phaserunner / Cycle Analyst 3 / PAS 14S6P system on a 21" MTB Motobecane Elite Trail.
In Cruise, applying the Regen requires an Ebrake signal to switch the throttle into Proportional Regen mode. That pull on the brake lever stops the cruise mode as programmed (any change in ebrake or throttle voltages). In practise, The system works well and does not resume cruise when the lever is released (my own humble experience). All the firmware is at sep2019 vintage in this system from GrinTech. The one "trick" is that the rider must be sure to engage the ebrake (and that the signal is read by the CA3; Lever Icon is moving) before engaging the throttle(which is now Regen) It sounds obvious, but it takes a bit to get used to. When I get the sequence wrong, I'm applying Throttle, then ebraking, which is not good. :lol:

 

[donn]

The one "trick" is that the rider must be sure to engage the ebrake (and that the signal is read by the CA3; Lever Icon is moving) before engaging the throttle(which is now Regen) It sounds obvious, but it takes a bit to get used to. When I get the sequence wrong, I'm applying Throttle, then ebraking, which is not good. :lol:

My goodness, you have it set up so forward throttle may be either forward drive or regen braking, depending on sequence of events involving the hand brake? That does sound like it would take some getting used to - I hope you will avoid any serious accidents!

 

[AHicks]

It sounds good to me. I almost always apply front and rear brakes together to stop or slow (motorcycle back ground), so that assures a brake signal. From there, that's where I would need to get used to it. I find a thumb throttle more convenient personally. I would have to get used to that modulating that rear brake rather than the lever.

Betting it's not going to take too much to get used to that. Hoping to get the chance to find out some day.

 

[500WhatsThat]

"Motorcycle background" - YES! Very important. Ride like you're invisible!
With the 9 level PAS sensor as the "master", the "throttle" lever (i didn't want the twist) is almost always just for Regen braking, so its more natural than one may think.
The Regen on the rear is smooth and strong, coordinated with the front, its a good 'motorcycle ' styled deceleration which is less wear on the 160mm mechanical disk pads.

 

[AHicks]

With the 9 level PAS sensor as the "master", the "throttle" lever (i didn't want the twist) is almost always just for Regen braking, so its more natural than one may think.

Excellent point. I don't use that throttle very often either. Mostly just to get the bike moving from a dead stop. I can see where that will very likely be a leg up on getting used to that new brake....

 

[500WhatsThat]

AHicks, "Mostly just to get the bike moving from a dead stop. ". That's an opportunity to increase Range.
We humans are good at low speed, high torque, like when starting from a dead start.
The MTB as great low gears.

My CA3 is programmed NOT to add battery current until I get the Mass Moving, then it kicks in.
This way, the battery (and motor) are spared the "worst efficiency load" of a dead start, full amperage.
I don't have numbers as to how much this helps, but it makes sense to me based on all EV surge loads.
Might be a different way of riding, fer sure. But maybe worth it for a Commuter.

 

[AHicks]

Old man here, and honestly my balance and reflexes aren't getting any better (one of the reasons I don't ride motorcycles any more). So there's that, and using maybe quarter throttle tops long enough to get the bike moving (what, 2 seconds?), well, I'm willing to take the mileage and gear wear hit for the luxury of having that ability.

Riding purely for pleasure, and not very fast, so 35 mile range for a very peppy MAC 12t equipped bike suits me fine.

I do see where a more athletic person trying to squeeze every mile possible from a charge may benefit from the practice as you describe.

More proof, different strokes..... -Al

 

[500WhatsThat]

Ahicks, I 'feel ya Man'!
I'm pushing 60 myself.
Its great that these ebikes can be configured for so many uses and personal styles.
Even with full PAS, I still get exercise, contrary to what people guessing what its like might say.
For myself, 20mins of cardio on the same bike wasn't much fun.
Now, I can spend 2 hours with an 'elevated heart rate ' and not be in cardio risk if I get caught down-wind, when I'm fatigued.
You hang in there and enjoy the ride!!

 

[Jil]

Quick feedback after 1 month 1/2 and 5-600 kms with my GMAC 8T (on 29" wheel) + Phaserunner + 14S6P battery + PAS : this setup is wonderful !

I'm able to drive at 50 kph on flat, with a power around 1200–1300W.
The Phaserunner is amazing, so much power in such a small device ! But it's not made for more than 1350-1400 W continously (at least with the 8T model, which requires higer phase current than the 10T). I've tried to use it at 1500W, after 15mn it has derated automatically to 1350W.

Average consumption on my daily ride (50% road, 50% urban) : 21Wh/km.
The motor is powerfull, smooth, reliable.
I'm using a sensor for the electronic braking, it's working well since I have found the right way to place it : https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ebrakes/tripwire-push.html

 

[500WhatsThat]

Jil - Nice Ebike!

I too went the the "top line" components of "GMAC 8T (on 29" wheel) + Phaserunner + 14S6P battery + PAS ".
My CA3 doesn't seem to repeat the motor temperature from the Phaserunner. The Temp reads -39C, LoL.
Does yours?

 

[E-HP]

Turned out great! And stealthy too. :thumb:

 

[Jil]

My CA3 doesn't seem to repeat the motor temperature from the Phaserunner. The Temp reads -39C, LoL.
Does yours?

No but I don’t have the temperature cable.
Anyways given my use (high speed and flat terrain), the motor is not the limitation. I’ve never found it to be even a bit warm after use.

 

[mexican_amigo]

How fast do you spin out with that chain ring?

 

[500WhatsThat]

My CA3 doesn't seem to repeat the motor temperature from the Phaserunner. The Temp reads -39C, LoL.
Does yours?

No but I don’t have the temperature cable.
Anyways given my use (high speed and flat terrain), the motor is not the limitation. I’ve never found it to be even a bit warm after use.

YEP! GrinTech advised me to add the temp cable, as you noted-Thanks
Instead of running another cable (I like "clean" installs) im getting a 10 conductor to carry the CA3, PAS, and Temp signals.
All are very low current, so the OD will be just about 4.5mm for all (one cable instead of three)
I made the brake sensor from a Hall Effect IC and a small set of magnets. So I could keep my Shimano all-in-one shifters.
The Regen braking is Awesome. Really saves brake wear. Road its only about 3%. On moutain trails its about 15%.
24Wh/mile commuting full speed (average with traffic 25mph, 36mph max). Mountain trails its only 14Wh/mile, and i'm getting a good work out!

 

[Jil]

How fast do you spin out with that chain ring?

I have a 40T front, I pedal at 90 rpm at 45 kph (on the small rear gear of 11T).

 

[Jil]

After 10 months, my Surly Krampus with GMAC is working well. I have made aroud 2500-3000 kms with it, without any trouble.
I have juste encountered some spoke breakages on the rear wheel, but it was due to a bad mounting (by me...)

This summer I have made a quick trip from south of France to Bardenas desert in Spain, 860 kms in 4 days
The only limit found to my eKrampus is the mountain. On high inclinations, when the speed drops around 10 kph, the GMAC efficiency is notably lower (it is also probably due to my mounting : GMAC 8T with 29" wheels). That's the only point on which I prefer my former BBS01 48V. The GMAC outpasses the BBS on all the other aspect.

 

[Jil]

Hi !

I will probably move to a mountainous area next year (French Pyrénées). I would like to be able to continue enjoying my Krampus, but my current setup for flat lands will probably not be optimal : 29 inches and GMAC 8T, with 52 V battery (and phaserunner).

In order to allow good climbing capabilities (and offroad capabilties with 2.8 or 3 inches tires), do you see a setup (motor/battery) that will fit better this 29+ frame ?
Or do I have to move to 27.5 or 26 inches frame ?
Is it worth it to replace my GMAC 8T by a 10T ?
Will another motor do better ? (I don’t want to go for a BBS, and want to keep the regen capabilities).
I plan to build a new battery pack (~ 2 kWh), what is the voltage that you would choose ?

I know, many questions

 

[donn]

You seem to know what you're doing, though. If you're looking at the Grin tech motor simulator, you might mention some of the parameters you're using (particularly grades - not many of us have had a chance to drop by your new home in the Pyrenees yet.)

 

[goatman]

id probably just raise the battery upto 60v to increase the wattage and be looking at heatsinking the phaserunner

 

[sleepy_tired]

Or do I have to move to 27.5 or 26 inches frame ?

In practical terms difference between 29 and 26 is rather unsubstantial. If things are very marginal with 29er then moving to 26 may work slightly better. But that is about it.

Is it worth it to replace my GMAC 8T by a 10T ?

A large direct drive motor with statorade will beat a gmac on hills pretty easily.

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&motor=9C212_6T_SA&motor_b=GMAC8T&wheel=29i&wheel_b=29i&grade=8&grade_b=8

It's less efficient overall, but it can sheds heat much better so it wins.

 

[Jil]

Thank you ! :thumb:

Clearly the large DD motors are a good option. RH212 or H3540 are 3 kg heavier than the GMAC and less efficient at low speed, but much less prone to overheating on hills and with similar efficiency at high speed.

Here are my simulations with 60V battery (the 8% grade is for typical high mountain passes in Pyrénées).

GMAC 8T vs Crystalite H3540 :
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=GMAC8T&batt=cust_60_0.2_30&wheel=29.53i&mass=140&hp=125&throt=54&cont=PR&cont_b=PR&motor_b=M3540_SA&batt_b=cust_60_0.2_30&wheel_b=29.53i&mass_b=140&hp_b=125&throt_b=53&bopen=true&frame_b=mountain&frame=mountain&grade=8&grade_b=8
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=GMAC8T&batt=cust_60_0.2_30&wheel=29.53i&mass=140&hp=125&throt=30&cont=PR&cont_b=PR&motor_b=M3540_SA&batt_b=cust_60_0.2_30&wheel_b=29.53i&mass_b=140&hp_b=125&throt_b=30&bopen=true&frame_b=mountain&frame=mountain&grade=0&grade_b=0

GMAC 8T vs RH212 Std :
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=GMAC8T&batt=cust_60_0.2_30&wheel=29.53i&mass=140&hp=125&throt=54&cont=PR&cont_b=PR&motor_b=9C212_7.5T_SA&batt_b=cust_60_0.2_30&wheel_b=29.53i&mass_b=140&hp_b=125&throt_b=42&bopen=true&frame_b=mountain&frame=mountain&grade=8&grade_b=8
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=GMAC8T&batt=cust_60_0.2_30&wheel=29.53i&mass=140&hp=125&throt=30&cont=PR&cont_b=PR&motor_b=9C212_7.5T_SA&batt_b=cust_60_0.2_30&wheel_b=29.53i&mass_b=140&hp_b=125&throt_b=23&bopen=true&frame_b=mountain&frame=mountain&grade=0&grade_b=0

With the RH212 or H3540, no problem anymore to climb the Col du Tourmalet 8)

So, some additional questions now :wink:
Does it make sense to build a 60V battery (16S) or even 72V, or should I stick to 14S ?
What would be your choice between RH212 and H3540 (price apart) ?
Will the Phaserunner suit well both motors ?