12 kw rc motor
- Thread starter markobetti
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markobetti
10 kW
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- Jul 16, 2009
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Okay then .. great price , really good price..Arlo i still need to send you small Colossus. They are finished..PM me when you can.
markobetti
10 kW
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Arlo1 said:I will be down to see luke On the 17-19th and we will try to get a game plan togetther!markobetti said:
GREAAAT ... Just put everything on the video ..You know Luke loves his face online ... so give him that pleasure as he explains how he will blow Colossus with his new fets
well done arlo1 on getting it up and running so sweet, 0 to 8000rpm real quick and heaps lower amp draw, golden.
but i have to ask... wtf? -how did you fly on by our trouble spot at 4700rpm, what controller is it? (and who built/set it up) and if it is infineon based then what do you mean by this:
"And the second video I try to show 11.2 amps on the 45% speed setting
14.1 amps on the 75%
and 17.3 on the 120% setting (advanced timing)"
if theres an adjustment to get advanced timing on infinions then please share this with the rest of us as you may not have noticed our desperation?
and splinter who was it who built/set up your controller (that we were running on Saturday) and how is it different to arlos and i wonder if he could she any light on the massive difference between arlos 17amps and our 55+amps ? :?
but i have to ask... wtf? -how did you fly on by our trouble spot at 4700rpm, what controller is it? (and who built/set it up) and if it is infineon based then what do you mean by this:
"And the second video I try to show 11.2 amps on the 45% speed setting
14.1 amps on the 75%
and 17.3 on the 120% setting (advanced timing)"
if theres an adjustment to get advanced timing on infinions then please share this with the rest of us as you may not have noticed our desperation?
and splinter who was it who built/set up your controller (that we were running on Saturday) and how is it different to arlos and i wonder if he could she any light on the massive difference between arlos 17amps and our 55+amps ? :?
SplinterOz
1 kW
As promised here is some of the Hall and Phase timing we got from the Colossus when we first turned it (not running just sensing) to determine the phase wires and Hall sensor wires.
Phase 1 perfect out of the box by Splinter, on Flickr
Phase 2 very poor out of the box by Splinter, on Flickr
Phase 2 corrected by Splinter, on Flickr
Phase 3 good out of the box by Splinter, on Flickr
@Arlo1 Great to see yours running so well. Any tricks that might help us? Infineon settings etc?
Thanks
Phase 1 perfect out of the box by Splinter, on Flickr
Phase 2 very poor out of the box by Splinter, on Flickr
Phase 2 corrected by Splinter, on Flickr
Phase 3 good out of the box by Splinter, on Flickr
@Arlo1 Great to see yours running so well. Any tricks that might help us? Infineon settings etc?
Thanks
I will use my oscillospope for the next test. But 8000 rpm is an educated guess. It would be 7500 with 100 volts on the 100% speed setting.toolman2 said:
I set my controler up Its a infineon 18 fet built by me I bought from methods. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13638
I had no idea this stuff was such a big deal I just wanted a fast bmx so I bought the controler kit with the highest numbers and used the best chemistry of batteries!
There is programible speed settings for the switch seen in one of my videos! I dont have the crystilyte controler though I got one of his infineons!
bigmoose
1 MW
Splinter if your signals are DC coupled, why is the hall sensor voltage drooping over 4ms?
I have a funny start up but I will try reflashing my controller when I get my new bearings. And see if 120 phase setting will help I have a feeling it will make the startup better.SplinterOz said:
As for the rest CRANK ALL THE SETTINGS
ok, thanks arlo, but what did you mean here: "and 17.3 on the 120% setting (advanced timing)"
-what does the advanced timing bit mean and how did you adjust it?
splinter -maby we should try my 18fet infinion, as it did a fine job on my turnigy to 11000 rpm. we could just have a dud 24 fet controller? -or just a wrong setting went into it?
-what does the advanced timing bit mean and how did you adjust it?
splinter -maby we should try my 18fet infinion, as it did a fine job on my turnigy to 11000 rpm. we could just have a dud 24 fet controller? -or just a wrong setting went into it?
17.3 was the no load amps on the 120% speed setting in the Infineon programing. It advances the timing as the rpm gets up to ~1/2 and you are at full throttle. I can feel it kick in ~50 km/h on my bmx.toolman2 said:
I edited the post to read amps.
If you use 100% it will allow normal operation to full speed if you use 110% it advances the timing a touch and 120% is alot of advance but the motor will be less eficent just faster. It is in the programing seen here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13638&start=0 where is says speed mode then it says speed mode 1%
speed mode 2% and speed mode 3% You set those and then the switch on my seat will select which mode so I have one at 45% and one at 75% and one at 120%
Jeremy Harris
100 MW
Have you checked that setting the maximum speed to greater than 100% actually advances the timing? When I looked at it a while ago all that seemed to happen at 120% was that the controller switched to block commutation a bit earlier - I didn't spot any timing shift on the phase outputs relative to the Hall signals.
I may be wrong about this, as it's around a year ago that I last played with these settings, but if one of you has a scope hooked up and would like to check it would add to the knowledge pool.
Jeremy
I may be wrong about this, as it's around a year ago that I last played with these settings, but if one of you has a scope hooked up and would like to check it would add to the knowledge pool.
Jeremy
What do you meen switched a bit earlier? I was just told it advances the timeing but I do know on my bmx I gained a good amount in top speed I can find the numbers in a previous post but it was ~8 km/h higher top speed. If it was going to switch to block commutation on both setting 120 would not give a higher speed.Jeremy Harris said:
I was told most people cant use it because of the hall sensor timeing in the different wheels.
You are a smart guy jeremy and I do trust you know what you are talking about.
Unfortunatly my scope is just a one channel.
Jeremy Harris
100 MW
I didn't really spend much time looking at it, but it was around the time that someone first discovered that you could use a number greater than 100% in the speed setting options.
From what I recall, 100% wasn't really 100%, in that the controller was still showing some signs of PWM on the phase outputs (on the trapezoidal edges only, as I recall) at full throttle when set to 100%. Going beyond 100% switched the controller to full block commutation at full throttle, but the effect was a bit odd. I tried it on two motors, one a relatively high turn, high inductance, low Kv wind and one with a lower Kv. 120% produced a clean trapezoidal drive synced to the Halls as normal on the high inductance motor (as I recall, I wasn't specifically looking for a timing shift, but if there was one it wasn't obvious). 120% on the higher Kv motor caused the controller to trip out at full throttle - I had to reduce the maximum to around 110% to get this motor to run at full throttle.
On both motors there was a big step increase in no-load current, and a change in the sound of the motor, at around the almost full throttle point, with the 'scope trace showing a shift from a small amount of PWM on the leading/trailing edges to clean block commutation at this point.
It may well be that the controller is calculating timing on the fly and adjusting it with RPM, but I've never seen an obvious sign of this. If someone has a decent dual trace scope hooked up and can check this it would clarify just what the speed settings over 100% really do. I don't have any motors spare at the moment to do this test with, although I should have some time in the next couple of weeks. At the moment I'm not convinced they change the time, but would be happy to be proved wrong.
Jeremy
From what I recall, 100% wasn't really 100%, in that the controller was still showing some signs of PWM on the phase outputs (on the trapezoidal edges only, as I recall) at full throttle when set to 100%. Going beyond 100% switched the controller to full block commutation at full throttle, but the effect was a bit odd. I tried it on two motors, one a relatively high turn, high inductance, low Kv wind and one with a lower Kv. 120% produced a clean trapezoidal drive synced to the Halls as normal on the high inductance motor (as I recall, I wasn't specifically looking for a timing shift, but if there was one it wasn't obvious). 120% on the higher Kv motor caused the controller to trip out at full throttle - I had to reduce the maximum to around 110% to get this motor to run at full throttle.
On both motors there was a big step increase in no-load current, and a change in the sound of the motor, at around the almost full throttle point, with the 'scope trace showing a shift from a small amount of PWM on the leading/trailing edges to clean block commutation at this point.
It may well be that the controller is calculating timing on the fly and adjusting it with RPM, but I've never seen an obvious sign of this. If someone has a decent dual trace scope hooked up and can check this it would clarify just what the speed settings over 100% really do. I don't have any motors spare at the moment to do this test with, although I should have some time in the next couple of weeks. At the moment I'm not convinced they change the time, but would be happy to be proved wrong.
Jeremy
OK JeremyJeremy Harris said:
One of my old co-workers has a dual trace and I will ask to borrow it as soon as the new bearings are installed.
The way you explained it makes sense. But I am sure it waits till the rpm is up a bit to run (what ever is kicking in the higher speed)
Very cool I love this stuff!
thats all interesting stuff, thanks to all.
and a keyway will hold position really well, but mainly when another clamping force is helping like a nut bolted up tight and taper is even better.
where a keway fails is when it is left to deal with the play and chews out..
and a keyway will hold position really well, but mainly when another clamping force is helping like a nut bolted up tight and taper is even better.
where a keway fails is when it is left to deal with the play and chews out..
markobetti
10 kW
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2009
- Messages
- 620
agree with toolman...
7circle
100 W
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2008
- Messages
- 137
Can see you guys are bouncing on your ankles to burn rubber.
But while you have the motors on the bench would it be worth adding some flywheel momentum to stop the light rotor ringing back and forth as it is caught by the leading magnet opposite pole.
This "Maybe" causing much larger harmonic AC currents, causing more losses and then showing up as larger battery side current.
You should see this across the FET ON voltage. But more clearly at the 120% setting you guys are discussin. Unless you have phase shunts or other current sensing that would show you the actual phase current.
But ahh ..
would NOT want to be there if a flywheel comes loose at 10000 RPM. So make sure its contained .
Oh, great picks Arlo, finally got a good view of the magnet sizing and spacing to the stator.
But while you have the motors on the bench would it be worth adding some flywheel momentum to stop the light rotor ringing back and forth as it is caught by the leading magnet opposite pole.
This "Maybe" causing much larger harmonic AC currents, causing more losses and then showing up as larger battery side current.
You should see this across the FET ON voltage. But more clearly at the 120% setting you guys are discussin. Unless you have phase shunts or other current sensing that would show you the actual phase current.
But ahh ..
would NOT want to be there if a flywheel comes loose at 10000 RPM. So make sure its contained .Oh, great picks Arlo, finally got a good view of the magnet sizing and spacing to the stator.
No problem7circle said:Can see you guys are bouncing on your ankles to burn rubber.
But while you have the motors on the bench would it be worth adding some flywheel momentum to stop the light rotor ringing back and forth as it is caught by the leading magnet opposite pole.
This "Maybe" causing much larger harmonic AC currents, causing more losses and then showing up as larger battery side current.
You should see this across the FET ON voltage. But more clearly at the 120% setting you guys are discussin. Unless you have phase shunts or other current sensing that would show you the actual phase current.
But ahh ..
Oh, great picks Arlo, finally got a good view of the magnet sizing and spacing to the stator.
As for the flywheel I thought about it but I don't want to load my pour little 18 fet down to much. I meen I will need it to dominate the international race next year.
I also spun mine verticaly not horazontaly so I could stay out of the line of fire! I am trying to find the metal the skirt is made of and I will get a calculation of the centrifugal force on it from the magnets inside!
Gordo
100 kW
The keystock you use should be softer than the shaft, but square keystock is usually tough stuff.Arlo1 said:
I don't think you have room for a taperlock hub so you may want to just use Locktite bearing glue in the hub & key? It lets go with a little heat when you need to take things apart. The last thing you want is a MM short key held with only a grubscrew. My WAG on a key is 3/8" square, one inch long (without a taperlock) is good for 10 hp on an ICE. If you use a Dodge or LoveJoy coupling, the power pulses are buffered and you can pull more with belts.
I am concerned that this motor/shaft/key are designed for a fluid load (air), not a 220 lb "very tall fellow" doing wheelies on a chain driven scoot.
Somethings' gona break, a few times, with 28hp & chain drive. Maybe rubber block wheel drive from motorcycle to cushion the blow?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Tektronix Dual Trace is dug out and waiting if you want to see pretty pictures.
Ok so today I took the skirt bearing out and apart and as I did that I knoticed one of the windings was on the outside of the stator and the glue was holding it there so it had been like that for a while I should have noticed it last time.
This is a test run motor so I am sure the actual production motors will be better.
But I do reconmend a little glue between all the stator teath to keep the wires in their places not a lot just a little in the center of each tooth should work.
Here is pictures of the bearing and how to get it apart. The ball cage is not reuasble it is held with rivits.
The balls mesure .1866 inches excatcly so I would say the nearest fration is 3/16 so these are the ceramic balls I can find to use we just need new retainers.
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7613
This is a test run motor so I am sure the actual production motors will be better.
But I do reconmend a little glue between all the stator teath to keep the wires in their places not a lot just a little in the center of each tooth should work.
Here is pictures of the bearing and how to get it apart. The ball cage is not reuasble it is held with rivits.
The balls mesure .1866 inches excatcly so I would say the nearest fration is 3/16 so these are the ceramic balls I can find to use we just need new retainers.
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit7613
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markobetti
10 kW
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- Jul 16, 2009
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Arlo1 said:
Windings of Chinese motors has always been an issue ....Production models will probably be winded in Croatia ... That will give us option to make kv ourselves and also to use different wire...
Thats cool marko!markobetti said:
If you hand wind them you can make them more effiecnt too!
After talking to Luke about how almost any motors that are are mass produced they have their wires are looped up and slid onto the stator tooth after it makes sense a hand built motor is the way to go!
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