12V DIY battery cases, can't get 12v?

pishta

10 µW
Joined
Sep 27, 2023
Messages
5
Location
Tustin, California, USA
I bought a few cheap 12V battery cases that are the size of 12v 7.2A (UPS or alarm size) sealed batteries. They take 21 18650 batteries in a 3S7P matrix and comes with a 3S 40A BMS. I want to hook 2 in series to make a 24V pack for a Razor E350 with an upgraded 500W motor. Ive charged each 18650 battery to 4.2V before assembling the packs (spot welder and supplied nickle strips) and now I can only get 11.8V out of it. Shouldn't I see 12.6V or does the BMS take a little? I put 3 packs n series and used a 36V scooter charger @ 42.3V output to charge them and even after a day on the charger, I still have under 12V per pack. Is the scooter charger freaking out because its trying to charge through 3 BMS's or are the BMS in series preventing a full 12.6 charge across the 3 packs? These were just convenient for the original installation but I may just build a 6S7P 24V with a single BMS to operate this. The 500W motor is out of a lawnmower and runs almost 2x the RPM of the original 2650 RPM 250W motor

1746677595324.png
 
A working BMS with no cells outside it's limits shouldn't drop any voltage across the FETs except when current flow is high enough for that FET's internal resistance to do so via ohm's law. You can measure votlage across the FETs' source and drain pins to see if this is happening and if hte voltage dropped there plus your measured pack output voltage adds up to the total cell block voltage.


What voltage are each of the cells *now*?

What happens if you place a load on the output of a pack that reads low, while measuring it?

If it drops to nothing, the BMS turned off the output to protect the cells against a fault; you'd have to verify wiring, voltages, balance, etc., to see which thing is outside the BMS limits and correct that.

If it stays at the present voltage, then the BMS output is not turned off, but it could have tried to and failed:


Are the BMSes common-port or separate-port? (CP uses only one connection for charge and discharge)

The former requires the packs to be separated at the second set of ports whenever the first are being used, and vice-versa, so the BMS can actually protect the cells.


Are your BMSes designed to operate at the full system voltage? Or only at the individual pack voltage? If the latter, the FETs may be damaged by the full system voltage placed across them whenever they turn off the output or input for any reason. There are ways to work around that with diodes, posted by Fechter in the many various threads about seriesing battery packs, but if they are already damaged you'd have to replace the BMSes first with working ones. When damaged, usually the FETs fail stuck on (shorted) and the BMS can no longer protect the cells by turning off the output or input (depending on which set failed).



Other notes:

A 3s pack won't be high enough voltage when full for a typical "12v" range, which would normally be 13.6-14.4v for lead-acid SLA replacements. So the system may not have as much power/torque or go as fast as it did with the SLA at full charge. (A 4s pack is too high a voltage when full; some 12v systems will be damaged by the 16.8v full voltage of this).

A controller with an LVC designed for SLA should turn off around 10v minimum, might turn off as high as 11-12v. So a 3s pack will still have a lot of energy in it when the controller shuts off.

(if your controller has no LVC, then the last doesn't matter, but you're depending on the BMS to protect the cells, and that should be the second line of defense, not the first--running a pack to BMS LVC every time is hard on the cells and means that if the BMS can't turn off the output for any reason, you'll overdischarge the cells because you won't know it's empty until too late. )


Normally LiFePO4 cells are used in 4s for SLA replacements, because they pretty closely match the voltage range, and eliminate the above issues (except for the very last one; that depends on the controller having a working LVC above the BMS LVC).
 
You plugged 3x 3s batteries (9s) into a charger meant for 10s. It sounds like the BMSs might be working properly, since you didn't mention a fire.
 
You plugged 3x 3s batteries (9s) into a charger meant for 10s. It sounds like the BMSs might be working properly, since you didn't mention a fire.
Ah, good point! The charger is for a 36V rated Segway Ninebot but the charge output is 42v. Ill look into this. Thanks!

Amberwolf, these cells were harvested from a small 12v battery backup for a phone system, 4S2P. Perhaps the 3S is not going to deliver the 12V I need after all no matter how many in parallel I have. I believe a proper 24V pack build is on my weekend list. These will be used for some other project or will be reconfigured internally for a 4S5P with a new BMS.
 
Last edited:
7s of regular Li-Ion (non-lifepo4) is often used for 24v. You can check to see if the cells you're using have the right charge / discharge range for your controller if you look up their spec sheet (most are about 4.2v full, and safe to shut off at 3.1-3.3v.

Most BMS don't shut off till 2.8v, but this is an emergency "stop now" to prevent cell damage, not an everyday shutoff level. :)
 
Concerning the apparent 11.8 max charge on each battery, try charging them separately with a 12.6V charger, Also check inside each battery to make sure there isn't some systematic unbalance of the three P-groups. These 12V kits use a single port BMS, and it probably should have balance circuits. It can take a while to balance. You should be able to charge a pair of them in series with the right voltage charger. I haven't figured out how the BMS manage it, but they apparently do it,

Not unusual though for harvested cells to droop from 4.2V/cell down to 4 volts. They have probably been sitting for years at 4+ volts in the modems, and that's not good for life. Modem cells also don't usually have the high drain, low internal resistance characteristics you want when running motors. So you learn the hard way, We all have,,
 
Back
Top