16" 20" 24" 26" Which wheel size is best for you?

steveo

100 kW
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
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Location
Woodbridge, Ontario
ok..

put aside the rear brake issue with going different sizes of rim unless its disk...

Is there huge differences in acceleration between 20" & 26" or even 16" & 26"

whats the difference in amperage draw between the two different wheel sizes? ..

my bike fits a 26" rim .. i can down probably most to a 20" .. with a 100v setup or 72v setup to achieve better acceleration & put less stress on the batteries..

is it worth it for the acceleration difference .. how much will top speed be likely affected ..

thanks
Steveo
 
Hi steveo

AFAIK putting the same motor in a smaller diameter wheel should increase the acceleration & decrease the speed roughly in proportion to the change in diameter, so e.g. for 26" to 20" very roughly 26/20 or 1.3 times the peak torque,and 20/26 or 0.77 times the top speed: though the top speed may be a bit more than that in practice, the higher rolling resistance of 20" wheels over 26" may offset that difference.

Depending how efficient your motor is already, the smaller wheel should require less current to accelerate & also less at top speed, due to lower power requirements,I'd say again close to 1.3 times less (0.77 of original) i.e. again, proportional to the reduction in wheel size.

Regearing the motor by wheel size like that will certainly give you more acceleration, but at the cost of top speed. You could also increase acceleration by increasing the controller's current limit, which might also marginally ncrease top speed too, but also increase current draw too, clearly. If current limit is already high, might be best to reduce wheelsize & top speed as you say. Either that or make sure when you get a motor that its got the right balance of speed & acceleration you want :).
 
sounds like you need to follow lowell's progression in modifications to his bike... (look right back in the ebike photo and video section.

as far as i can recall he started out with a high speed x5 motor in a 26" wheel, then went for a more torquier motor and smaller wheel (same controller / batteries) and got a much better acceleration and efficiency.

This is one of the reasons i want to go to either a geared setup or eventually a smaller wheeled setup.
 
I think this is another reason why 'geared' hub motors (geared reduction) work well in low/moderate speed bikes: non-geared hubs tend to be either quite heavy or wide diameter (Bionx) to get their optimum rpm down to bike speeds and even then the high rpm of most of the crystalyte motors seem to require smaller wheels to balance torque with speed, whereas some geared motors (e.g. puma, ezee) are both lighter & can give good torque & reasonable speed at only 36V or so & in 26-28" wheels - 260rpm gives around 21-22mph, 320rpm of some pumas around 24-25mph? Larger wheels makes bigger bikes, but they do have proportionally lower rolling resistance, not that its a big factor at 20-30mph or more :wink: .
 
steveo said:
ok..
Is there huge differences in acceleration between 20" & 26" or even 16" & 26"
whats the difference in amperage draw between the two different wheel sizes? ..
snip

thanks
Steveo

Human power:
I Hate 16 inch wheels on anything for me. They just bury themselves too deep in the potholes around here. I have 26 inch wheels on some things, but when its time to get tractor like low gearing at a reasonable price, it gets harder on 26" wheels.

Which leaves us with 20" and 24"; I like 20's except that the chain and derailler are soo close to the ground and get dirty and banged more often.

A little problem getting higer speeds out of 20" with standard hardware. but a 52 th front and 11 rear give a 95" gear, not too bad for top end.

The differnce in 24-507 and MTB 26 actually works out to be 10% due to something about ERT0.
That 10% is good for about one lower gear for hill climbing, using the same hardware as on a 26er.
Down side of 24 is there are several common sizes in use and, not the greatest selection in tire types and values in 507 erto.

so I like 20's and 24's for the above reasons. If you are doing a 'bent, tire size and human size have a less direct relationship than on an upright DF where small tires are mainly for small ppl.

Now on the epower side.

The same single speed hub motor in a smaller wheel does what you know it will do. E-motors spinning faster on hill climbs usually draw significantly less current as there are closer to their peak efficiency point, and closer to ther max available power. For me hill climbing is what the "E" in ebike is for. And yhes, 10% speed can make a difference.

But if you go toooo far on the hillclimbing scheme, there is nothing left at even 20mph for much emotor contribution.

However, if you are using a variable ratio chain drive like a cyclone, you do get the best of all worlds for power, efficiency, low end and top end --within limits. Those limits- to get close to tractor like hill climbing you will have to use a big tooth rear end on a 26" wheel, and to get decent topend on a 20" you will need a tiny 11" rear.

On a faired bent, the emotor would pretty much be for hillclimbing, as the bike is so fast and efficient on the flat e-assist is not much needed till the speeds are over 20mph, and hill climbing on a bent can be pretty challenging without e-power.

While my favorite is a 24", as it seems to make the compromises more centered, 24's are not a very common stock size on anything but juvenile bikes.

So, Wheel size gives a person the ability to fine tune the match between human and epower systems, and the ability on hub motors, and chaindrives to a smaller degree, to fine tune the emotor itself.

And by keeping both the emotor and the human motor closer to their "happy spots" you not only increase their power, speed and range, but get more smiles per mile.

YMMV of course

my 2 watts worth

dick in colorado
 
Everything said above.. and personally .. i like the 20's, strong rims are common, tire selection is not a problem, and by upping the voltage you make up for the smaller diameter.

One thing i like with the smaller wheels is that the speed is easier maintained than on large wheels, looking carefully at a CA meter while riding, large wheels 26"/700C draw more amps while they adjust to throttle position vs smaller wheels, this has to factor in to the efficiency of the bike.

Like DD3 said, Gearing is a problem on small wheels, my Norco with a 20 " rear only allows pedal input up to 20 km/h, but at 72v ( Clyte 409 ) it happilly zips up to 40 km/h. I went single speed in the rear with the smallest 11 tooth freewheel, and have the largest diameter sproket in front that a truvativ crank will allow.

16" wheels are a PITA to lace, ( 28 holes instead of 36 ) but offer the best pulling power by leverage. Good luck finding a quality bicycle that takes 16" wheels ( other than bents and some trikes ) .

So. 20's rule in my book ! 8)
 
Changing the wheelsize for the same motor will change the acceleration/speed/current draw characteristics as said but two similar motors with different rpms should have similar acceleration/speed/current draw when 'geared' similarly in different sized wheels e.g. a 260rpm in 24" and a 320rpm in 20" (@36V - just increase voltage for proportionally higher rpm & top speed e.g. 320rpm @ 36V gives around 480rpm @ 54V)

The larger diameter wheel has less drag from rolling friction and evens out bumps better, requiring less 'chunky' tyres which also add to lower rolling resistance: even though air resistance is by far the biggest source of drag above 12mph/20km/h, the rolling resistance is still there and proportional to speed, and fatter tyres are less aerodynamic too. But larger diameter tyres are also likely to be heavier which makes them that bit harder to accelerate, added to their larger size makes them less manouevrable than the smaller wheel... so I suppose its more a question of usage: for agile ebikes go smaller (but beware the low chainline), for long distance, commuting road ebikes go larger for efficient & comfortable 'cruising' speed, while 24" makes a useful all-round compromise: its a shame 24" wheels are not widely available, though 26" is close in size due to ETRTO sizing.

So in the above example, I'd go for 320rpm in 20" for low-speed manouevrability & little or no pedal input above ~20mph/33km/h; 260rpm in 24" for roughly same top speed, acceleration & efficiency & nimble size but better gearing for pedal assist well above 20mph/33km/h - nearer 30mph/50km/h is easily doable (with higher voltage battery too); for cruising speed rather than acceleration increase wheelsize to 26" or 28" - very easy to gear for pedal assist for speeds over 30mph, but less manouevrable than the smaller wheels.

To be able to choose your wheelsize, speed & acceleration characteristics according to usage like that though, you need a selection of motor rpms and/or battery options to fit i.e. say you want around 24mph/40km/h top speed in a 26" wheel, and no more than 48V battery, you'd be ok with a motor with 333 rpm @ 48V (260rpm @ 36V) or 320 rpm @ 36V for less battery weight/capacity.
 
Wow ...

Thanks a lot for your input guys ... I've read all your posts .. and i think i will go for a 20" wheel as per alot of selection in rims.. .. i want to have the quick acceleration .. and still get the top speed... i will be looking for 100v in the future ... so i think this will be my pick .. now the problem is the braking ..i won't be able to use the brake pads .. which i want to avoid using at all costs as per i want to stick with disk .. i have to figure this out thou as per my problem .. shown here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=256&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15 ....

thanks again! ..

Steveo
 
Hi steveo
My only "ebike" experience is w/a kick scoot w/power assist... 12.5" wheels. Hope to go to 16" for next vehicle, only to get into quality rubber... But the point about the smaller diameters is that they can have a similar wheelbase, but provide for a much shorter vehicle from front to back. I found the shorter length much easier to handle through doors and indoors, up/down stairs etc. Easier to stash in a closet or inside another vehicle or vessel. In fact I bought a shoulder bag that the vehicle fits into when folded.

G'Luck
loCk
 
Hey Lock ..

I agree.. thats why I'm gonna go with the 20" in the rear.. :D .. your live in Toronto? where abouts? pics of your ride?

-steveo
 
steveo said:
Hey Lock ..
I agree.. thats why I'm gonna go with the 20" in the rear.. :D .. your live in Toronto? where abouts? pics of your ride?
-steveo
St.George&Bloor these days...
First scoot was a Currie Phat Flyer branded for Oxygen, like this, built about 8-9yrs ago in Thailand... Second scoot looks a couple of years older, made in Taiwan, but very similar.
`Been surfing smooth Toronto sidewalks, so no potholes to trap small wheels <wink>
L
 

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heheh thats an awsome little ride.. good to see some fellow T.O.'ers in the ebikin & on the forums :D

-steveo
 
another advantage to 20" rims is that they will accept 16" motorcycle tires. at least the narrow front ones anyway. it could be usefull at high speeds to use a tire meant for those speeds.

rick
 
rkosiorek said:
another advantage to 20" rims is that they will accept 16" motorcycle tires. at least the narrow front ones anyway. it could be usefull at high speeds to use a tire meant for those speeds.

rick

really? .. thats make no sence lol ...
 
I also about to buy a rear motor. Thought about changing wheel size from 26" to 24" or 20"? Concerned about pedals getting too close to the ground. Worst case scenario is when suspension travels to bottom. When ya hit a real BIG bump. Full Suspension Mountain Bike. There is 5" of travel at front and rear. Go here to see. On page 2.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2688
Look what TechBikes do.
file.php

Think he changes rear shock to be longer, so rear suspension goes lower and pedal to ground clearance goes up.
 
ok... i'm bringing this post up again .. i just had and argument with my friend on this ..

i've decided to go with a 20inch rim... this come out to be bigger then 20" say 24" with rubber

or when you guys say 20" do you get the 16" rim + rubber = 20inch with rubber ..


please help me on this one ..
 
16" rim + rubber = 20"

a motorcycle/scooter tire would take that up to 22.5" or there abouts.

bicycles use the outside diameter of the tire. everything else uses the bead diameter of the rim.

rick
 
wow ... so it is a 16" + rubber to 20"..

wow that has to be all torque ..

-steveo
 
torque is the whole point. ungeared hub motors can use this to their advantage. and get a little more hill climbing power.

rick
 
So i ordered my rim & spokes...


I ended up buying a 20" rim as apposed to 16";

as per zev at ebikes.. he said it was most likely impossible to get a 5304 in 16" rim ... he said it would be about 3 centimeters of spokes all the way around .. so this clarifies my question ... its a 20" rim + tire ... works to be 22" or a bit more ...

-steve
 
yours will end up being a 24" using bicycle sizes.

i hope Zev is wrong about that. in a couple of weeks when those 16" rims get here i will be attempting the impossible i guess. i'll report back my misadventures.

rick
 
rkosiorek said:
yours will end up being a 24" using bicycle sizes.

i hope Zev is wrong about that. in a couple of weeks when those 16" rims get here i will be attempting the impossible i guess. i'll report back my misadventures.

rick


good luck .. he said about 3mm of spoke clearance...lol
 
steveo said:
good luck .. he said about 3mm of spoke clearance...lol

Hell ... it might be easier to just block the hub housing into the center and use mig weld beads to make a solid or near-solid wheel.
 
kbarrett said:
steveo said:
good luck .. he said about 3mm of spoke clearance...lol

Hell ... it might be easier to just block the hub housing into the center and use mig weld beads to make a solid or near-solid wheel.

weight ,,, meeh ... just get a bigger rim
 
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