Buying first system - Need input please.

[Recumbum]

I’ll start with the stats;

Im 62 years old and my weight fluctuates from 195 - 225lbs at my heaviest. I’m 6 foot 2 inches tall.
Retired and living full time in Mexico…..this is important as getting parts etc is difficult here.
I have an older Tech Nova Pro non suspended chromoly framed MTB with quick release hubs and Shimano XT components front to rear, with rim style wheel brakes…..NO DISK BRAKES…..triple chainrings up front and 7 speed on the rear. 26” wheels hard anodized aluminum. This was a very high quality bike in it’s day. I have it set up well and it just fits me after changing bar risers, seat posts etc. to get the egos I needed. It took a fair amount of money in components to get it right, but the bike fits me just right so I’d prefer to keep it and simply swap out a wheel with an electrified one.

Sitting here imagining how far I might commute on the bike leaves me thinking about 50km/30mi round trip with perhaps some last minute side errands to do. From what I have read my ideal battery capacity should not drop below 80% discharge to achieve this commute so as to have a little left over just in case and make it easier on the battery. This is a lake area where pretty much everything surrounds the lake shores making most of the riding fairly flat but we are surrounded by mountains so getting to and from the lake is either up or down but not too terribly steep to allow a fit person to easily pedal it with no assist on the above said MTB. Most all the side roads through the neighborhoods and residential areas are cobblestone that are really rough making the ride quite uncomfortable - if my panniers were water proof I could put my dirty clothes in them with soap and water and do my laundry washing at the same time, but the through fare roads are paved. Average annual temperature is 76 degrees F. cooler in winter and hotter in summer and at an elevation of 5000 feet. I’d like to be able to travel at a speed of not less than 20 mph without placing any real demand on the system with regard to economy of watts/km/mile. Slower could work too. I’ve ridden as fast as 42 mph downhill on this bike on a dirt road in good condition but to be honest it was not comfortable as far as feeling safe was concerned and at 30 mph I felt fine again so I think speeds of 20-30mph on the flat would be more than enough on that upper end.

Keeping in mind that I am in Mexico, the cost of shipping could be detrimental. Shipping batteries could also be detrimental due to Lithium battery shipping rules. I have an electrical background so making up my own batterie packs is an option providing I could find the components locally such as the 18650 cells which of the ones I have found through a company called Steren (like Radio Shack) but they are about 8 dollars US each.

I like components like the Cycle Analyst from Grin Technologies, and regen braking which I need a direct drive motor for which is cool because I wanted DD instead of geared anyway simply because of dependability and no moving parts…..this is the living in Mexico thing again…..It’s hard to source stuff down here and expensive to ship in. Most companies don’t want to ship into Mexico.

When I was looking into bikes in the past to now is a different world and I feel like I’m starting all over again with a huge learning curve. I just don’t know what to buy? Brands? The only things I do know about the system that I really do want is that it be direct drive and have regenerative braking. Suggestions?

 

[Tommm]

Maybe write a TLDR

 

[MikeSSS]

Your bike is ideal for conversion to electric. A front or rear hub motor should work, Grin in Canada makes really nice torque arms but you can make them yourself with a drill, hacksaw and hand files, files for sharpening chainsaws work great.

Mounting the battery in the front triangle gives better weight distribution than mounting it in a bag on the rear rack. It's better if the bike is not obviously and ebike and also important that the battery can be removed when you leave the bike for things like shopping. Rear rack battery mounting works well with a front hub motor, because of good weight distribution and ease of battery removal.

Because it is a rigid bike the ride quality will be worse when using a hub motor. Bumps launch the wheel and hub upward, your body stops that motion by absorbing the vertical energy of the wheel and hub. The heavier the hub, the more shock energy your body has to absorb. For six years I rode a rigid bike with a direct drive front hub motor, shock through the handle bars was unpleasant. A suspension seatpost, even a cheap and simple one, can reduce seat shock. Suspension stems work well too but are hard to find. The goal is to take the edge off the shock. On the other hand, a rear hub motor on an older but decent quality full suspension bike works well.

Direct drive hubs are simple and reliable, but heavier than geared hubs and so have a worse ride. Geared hubs have more power from a start and on short climbs, but overheat easier than DD hubs. Gears and the clutch are potential failure points on a geared hubs, DD hubs don't have them. If parts are a hassle to get, the DD hubs have a big advantage.

Because DD hubs have less power at the start, their throttle response is more controllable at low speeds for me.

I can't tell the difference between riding a front hub or rear hub motor during normal riding. In really slow riding with dramatic turns I can feel a difference, the rear hub being easier to ride.

20 mph is easy to get with 48v or 52v of 18650 cells but uses more battery than, say, 14 mph.

30 miles on a charge with a comfortable reserve is very doable, but requires "enough" battery. My 52 V, 20 Ah, 14s, 8p battery is big and heavy but can easily do that ride. It's really nice to have a volt meter on the handle bars so you can see how the battery is doing.

It's better if the controller and motor can continue to work if the Hall sensors fail.

If Amazon operates in Mexico you can get everything through them. I've used Amazon to get two batteries, not through Amazon I bought a hub motor from Grin, a hub motor from EM3ev, a hub motor and two batteries from Luna. All purchases went well.

I hope this information helps, there is a lot to think about. A usable ebike does not have to be complicated or expensive to work well. An optimal solution isn't needed, good enough is good enough. Better to ride good enough than to not ride the best.

 

[Recumbum]

Maybe write a TLDR

TLDR????

 

[donn]

This is a lake area where pretty much everything surrounds the lake shores making most of the riding fairly flat but we are surrounded by mountains so getting to and from the lake is either up or down but not too terribly steep to allow a fit person to easily pedal it with no assist on the above said MTB. ... I’d like to be able to travel at a speed of not less than 20 mph without placing any real demand on the system with regard to economy of watts/km/mile. Slower could work too. I’ve ridden as fast as 42 mph downhill on this bike on a dirt road in good condition but to be honest it was not comfortable as far as feeling safe was concerned and at 30 mph I felt fine again so I think speeds of 20-30mph on the flat would be more than enough on that upper end.

This is something you'd do well to have really thought through. 20-30mph sure can be done, but it's very different in terms of the experience and the power demands, especially on a mountain bike. (How come "recumbum"?) You're essentially in motorcycle territory, where the vast majority of the power is coming from the motor, and much of it is going into wind resistance. You can use the ebikes.ca simulator to get an idea of the respective Watt-hours/mile, which will factor in to how much battery you need. (Note that the advertised Amp-hours for batteries is sort of imaginary, and you can pretty much count on getting less.) And then in motorcycle territory, there are a bunch of questions about tires, brakes, lighting, protective clothing, etc. that ought to be asked.

I started with a bicycle I really liked and put a motor on it. Then I realized that I really liked it the way it was, and got another bike with suspension, which I really appreciate for riding 20mph a lot (and that's about the upper limit for me.) Your situation may be even more like that.

You know your situation with regards to getting what you need there in Mexico better than we do, I will just point out that few of us go downtown and get electric bicycle parts, it's a mail order world. (Though I did get my hub and controller locally.) There may be some things you can fabricate, but I have to wonder with the torque arms, what would you start with? I'm thinking mild steel is too soft to function well, and anything else would be rather hard to saw and file.

 

[motomech]

I'm in Baja and both my ebikes have been stolden, but I have a lot of parts left over if you are interested.
I rode ebikes in Latin America for over a decade, but I'm not building another one, just too dangerous, as the drivers have zero respect for bicycles. I rode on a rare road that actually has wide shoulders, but it turned out people would cross over both lanes to turn in frt of you and panic stops (actually getting the rear whl. off the ground) were all to common.
Anyhow, I have boxs of parts including a very nice mini motor in a 24" frt. whl. Also lot's of LiPoly batteries.

 

[motomech]

Also, you can order ebike stuff on Amazon MX.

 

[Recumbum]

(How come "recumbum"?)

I used to ride nothing but recumbents of both swb and lwb varieties.

 

[Recumbum]

I'm in Baja and both my ebikes have been stolden, but I have a lot of parts left over if you are interested.
I rode ebikes in Latin America for over a decade, but I'm not building another one, just too dangerous, as the drivers have zero respect for bicycles. I rode on a rare road that actually has wide shoulders, but it turned out people would cross over both lanes to turn in frt of you and panic stops (actually getting the rear whl. off the ground) were all to common.
Anyhow, I have boxs of parts including a very nice mini motor in a 24" frt. whl. Also lot's of LiPoly batteries.

I really want an ebike but sadly I feel my fate will end up being exactly the same as yours in being stolen. What were the circumstances in which yours were stolen? Were they locked securely to something? House broken into and taken from there? Sadly these things are common here also.

Bad drivers are just the norm here. So much so that you must drive like every minute your life is in danger for sure. I've seen and experienced them first hand.

Amazon.com.mx is only a last resort for me because of unscrupulous sellers, for example. I needed a 3 piece set of furniture scrapers that Lee Valley Tool had on for under 15.00 dollars Canadian. I looked on Amazon.com.mx and found the exact same set and it was over 4000 Mexican pesos that at the time placed them over 220.00 USD. I see that sort of thing all the time on the .mx site. People taking advantage of others not knowing what things are worth, it's sad. Some good advice and pointers coming in so I will keep my ear to the ground and keep listening to the suggestions as they come in.

 

[999zip999]

I had to ebikes Golan and southern California one was locked one was outside the store while I ran in to get a Gatorade now I go for the homeless look my bike is ugly but seven years old and 25000 miles later. It's still ugly

 

[MikeSSS]

The largest Kryptonite or OnGuard chain along with a Kryptonite New York Fahgettaboudit Mini U-lock is difficult to get through. The Mini fits easier through the OnGuard chain than through the Kr chain. A cordless angle grinder can get through almost anything but is noisy and takes time. Bolt cutters, even hydraulic and 48" types will have a difficult time with these chains and locks.

Bike geometry is mostly made for 10 to 20 mph, real racing road bikes and downhill bikes are designed for higher speeds. In my experience, 48 V and 52 V batteries are happy in the 10 to 17 mph range.

Geared hubs climb well on short climbs but don't have a good heat rejection path, so they aren't a good choice for long climbs. A Cycle Analyst V3 gives hub temp data if the hub has heat sensors and is compatible. There are some excellent threads on this, including information on heat rejection paths.

I'm pretty easy on drop outs, so mild steel works well for my torque arms. I used two layers of 3/16" steel, individually fitted and then welded together for the cassette side and one layer of 3/16' steel with a 7/16" pinch bolt on the other side. The material came from Lowes, Mexican steel had more curve from rolling than the steel I bought. The two steel choices came in different lengths. The welder was a flux wire, wire feed, inverter machine with the Century brand on it. It did a good job. Before welding, the joints were tensioned, clamped, drilled and pinned. The axle holes were clamped with a 3/8" bolt and double washers on each side, this was done to prevent warping during welding, it worked. But, I don't use much throttle and pedal pretty hard, especially on starts and when climbing. Cold rolled is harder than mild steel but may soften from the heat and slow cooling caused by welding, the heat and slow cooling changes the grain structure. Harder, heat treatable steel is more difficult to get as is access to heat treating ovens and planing flat after post welding heat treatment.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, it seems fairly clear that you need to find a dealer in mexico, or one that ships to mexico. Though I live on the border, I don't know what the duties are for motors, or the shipping rules for batteries in mexico.

That said, if you can find something in country, a 48v 15 amp hour, or 36v 20 amp hour battery is the size you need. I did a 15 mile one way commute on that size for a long time. you would have to carry a lot of battery to do 30 miles in one charge, but if you ride slow enough and pedal hard, the size I speak of can go as far as 40 miles. Just plan on a charge before you start for home.

You don't need regen, but its possible and easy to have it with a DD motor.

The motor can be direct drive, or geared. Just get one with enough power to handle it. Geared motors are not fragile, I have one I started a test to destruction on quite a few years ago. Still kicking. But this is not a teeny tiny 250w motor, its the larger one, similar to a mac. 500w rated motor. The typical DD motor may be easier and cheaper for you to find, and they are 500w rated as well. often sold as a 1000w kit though.

Theft is another thing.. Even in the USA, I won't leave my bikes chained up for more than a few min. Nothing is going to be there in the morning, overnight. Inside is the only place to park your bike, and my house has 300 pounds worth of dogs inside.

Nothing wrong with your bike. You don't talk like you want a motorcycle. its fine, brakes fine. Ride it reasonable speeds and the hardtail is fine. I needed full suspension, but that was because my back is wrecked. If you can ride your bike that far now, you will be able to with a motor just as OK.

 

[donn]

I went down to the local up-scale shopping park to pick something up Tuesday, and when I got there I found that I had left the pack with my cable at home. Normally I'd lock it up, with that cable, but if I don't have it, I don't. (When I bought it, the shop owner wasn't too happy with my choice - not robust enough to foil the determined bicycle thief, apparently.) Naturally when I returned to the spot, my bicycle was still there.

I've done that a few times, and honestly I don't worry much. Partly because while the risk of theft in broad daylight like that is not zero, it's low enough for 15 minutes, but mostly because my bicycle is a weird looking recumbent that does not fit what I think is the standard bicycle thief's business model.

 

[motomech]

Well, it seems fairly clear that you need to find a dealer in mexico.....

I don't think there is such a thing. I have been working and living in Latin America (Mexico, Costa Rica, Panama & Nic.) for going on two decades and I've never seen another Ebike, let alone a dealer.
The locals are always interested in my bikes when they realize what they are and ask a lot of questions and it always gets around to what it costs. It's a little difficult to explain to them I order the parts from China and I usually would tell them the motors are not expensive, but when I tell them what the batteries cost they lose interest. It's understandable when a new Chinese 100cc motorcycle can be bought for $900 US.
Heck, my 2019 Italika (designed and assembled in Mexico) 150 enduro cost me $1250, came with a two year warrenty and has been completely trouble free for over 2000 miles. For sure, it's no Honda, the tires and chain were crap and I replaced them w/ Japanese items, the paint is starting to chip and the stickers came off w/ the first power-wash, but other than routine maintenance, I've never had to lay a wrench on it (not even to tighten a spoke)

 

[motomech]

I really want an ebike but sadly I feel my fate will end up being exactly the same as yours in being stolen. What were the circumstances in which yours were stolen? Were they locked securely to something? House broken into and taken from there?

Actually, three have been stolen.
The first happened several years ago when I was managing a hotel in Mazatlan. It was stored in an indoor parking garage and the thieves cut a hole in the roof and then busted the gate from the inside. (Mazatlan was a great place to ride, 7 mile long malecon along the ocean!)

The second was 6 months ago. I had it chained to my 5th wheel with a heavy chain they couldn't cut, but they stripped it, ripping all the components off just leaving the wires forlornly hanging. What in the World they could do w/ an Ebike controller, LiPoly batts., etc, one wonders. But that's the big difference between L. Amer. and the States. Certainly things get ripped off in the US, but it's unlikely things that aren't that easy to use or fenced would be taken. Here, they steal anything not nailed down. Anyhow, I stripped it the rest of the way down to the frame and stashed it under my trailer, hidden by lattice work. At some point it was stolden.

The third theft was a couple of weeks ago. I had it locked to the trailer w/ only a bicycle cable lock (dumb). Around two in the morning I woke up, my spidy sense tingling and when I tried to open the door, I couldn't. They had taken the garden tools out of the shed and barricaded my door! It took me a minute or so to work the rake and shovel from in frt. of the door and as soon as I got it open, I saw the bike was gone, but was sure they were still around and after waking everyone in the little RV park, I took off in my truck to drive around shining a light in the brush. They must of been one hiding, because while I was doing that, he got into my trailer (not locking the door was my second mistake) and took my laptop.

This is a hard place to secure. As I mentioned, it's a little family-owned park and the owners can't afford a security guard. And it's on a beach. so a fence or wall isn't practical. We have since added a surveillance system and the owners have added two big dogs, which they assure me they are training, right now all they do is bark all night.

I actually have a pretty good idea who one of the thieves is, a druggie who is well known for causing problems in town was seen scoping the park layout a couple of days before and I told the cops that. But like most places I've lived in L. Amer. (and probably the States now), if any of them were caught and jailed (not likely), they would soon be released.

In my 20 years in L. Amer., I've come to understand that expats will always have a target on their backs. A Tico (Costa Rican) once explained to me it was because everyone knows that all Gringos are rich and can buy new stuff. I think it's more like we have better stuff to steal.

I could write a book about all the stuff I have had stolen in L. Amer. (I guess I am), but as I reflect, I often had some culpability.

In Costa Rica, thieves pulled the door off my house w/ a truck during the day while I was at work and stole everything (even the refer) and of course the neighbors didn't see anything.

And in Nicaragua, they cut the bars that boxed the AC unit (which wasn't there) in the guest bedroom to steal my laptop and wallet while I was sleeping.

What these two things have in common? I had had girls of questionable morals (very questionable) in the houses and I'm pretty sure they had something to do w/ the burglaries.

Or there have been times there were signs and I ignored them.

Many years ago while living in a little beach town in Costa Rica, I rode my motorbike to the nearest big town to attend their fiesta. While watching the kids on the dance floor (even the horses can dance in CR), 4 teenage girls pulled me onto the floor and started dancing very close, rubbing on me even. I was thinking; Wow, the girls are really friendly in this town, when just as suddenly, they disappeared. Well, might as well get another beer as I reached for my wallet, gone! They had picked my pocket even though I had put it in my frt. jeans pocket. What had I seen? well, there were several boys watching from the periferia that as I looked back on the incident, am sure they were part of. That night was the one and only time I ever pan-handled in L. Amer. and I got a dollar from some Americans to get enough gas to get home.

Well, I'm sure that is way more info than anyone needed or cared to know, I guess I just felt like typing. But I would end this w/ the thought that living in L. Amer. teaches one to learn to let go of those material desires.

 

[motomech]

As far as leaving the bike out in frt. of stores while shopping, it's probably better in L. Amer. than in the States. There is almost always a security guy in frt. of stores and although the ones working at the big chain brands can't take any money, I would usually spiff the guys in frt. of the sm. stores 20 pesos or so to watch my bike.
Often though, there isn't a bike rack or anything to lock it to and I go to the manager and complain. Not that it does any good.

 

[999zip999]

I have an alarm words motion detector and if something happens and hurt you by phone and then you talk to it and you can talk to your voice comes out the bike but you know what either get a dog a crocodile or a heavy ass chain her keeping your hands don't let any other hands get on your bitch.

 

[999zip999]

Yeah I've had two bikes stolen I now go for the homeless look big glitter and Glamour the someone else I'm also just so you know what I mean sometime restomod or junk is not appealing only to the one who loves it... period.

 

[Recumbum]

Welll we have strayed off topic a little and I'd like to bring it back on topic again. I'm still hoping someone can give brand names and model numbers for Direct Drive motors with External Controller, batteries and kits in 48-52volt systems. From reading I've been able to glean that the 48-52 volts is where I want to be for my needs. Still in the dark as to WHAT to buy. Surely there must be components out there that have proven to be superior to others in similar price ranges? tnx

 

[amberwolf]

I'm still hoping someone can give brand names and model numbers for Direct Drive motors with External Controller, batteries and kits in 48-52volt systems.

There's perhaps hundreds of thousands of them out there, very similar within any general power range, and "brand names" and "model numbers" vary between sellers (probably only a few dozen to a few hundred actual manufacturers of the individual parts (motor, controller). Batteries are a whole separate thing.

So, given these requirements, edited out of your first post, I'll put some other questions to refine your needs to help select a specific set of parts to do what you want:

weight fluctuates from 195 - 225lbs at my heaviest.

Tech Nova Pro non suspended chromoly framed MTB with quick release hubs
rim style wheel brakes…..NO DISK BRAKES 26” wheel

30mi round trip with perhaps some last minute side errands to do.

battery capacity should not drop below 80% discharge

most of the riding fairly flat but we are surrounded by mountains

I’d like to be able to travel at a speed of not less than 20 mph without placing any real demand on the system with regard to economy of watts/km/mile.

speeds of 20-30mph on the flat would be more than enough on that upper end.

direct drive and have regenerative braking.

First, the most important part, the mountains and other non-flat areas, as they need the most power, and will determine both your necessary motor/controller power and your battery requirements.

Do you need that 20MPH on the mountains? What is the worst grade of slope you need that speed at, and how long is that slope? How long are your other slopes, and what ar their grades?

Let's just say your worst slope is 20%, and your total weight, bike, you, motor, batteries, cargo, etc., is 308lbs (convenient dropdown choice). Then this simulation with a "1000w" DD hubmotor and a 40A controller at 48v (about 2000w capability) with a 23Ah battery shows you get
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?batt=B4823_AC&cont=C40&axis=mph&hp=0&autothrot=false&throt=100&mass=150&grade=20
aobut 1.6mph on that slope, full thrutle, and hte motor overheats in less than two minutes (which is a very short distance at that speed, didnt' calculate but guessing a few hundred feet?). The battery would've lasted almost a mile if it still had a motor to power.

The same thing on only a 10% slope
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?batt=B4823_AC&cont=C40&axis=mph&hp=0&autothrot=false&throt=100&mass=140&grade=10
nets you aobut 10x faster speed, and give syou about five minutes before the motor turns to slag. You'd get about 9 miles out of it if the motor hadn't melted first.

On a *completely flat* road, the same setup
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?batt=B4823_AC&cont=C40&axis=mph&hp=0&autothrot=false&throt=100&mass=140&grade=0
nets you about 30mph, and about 23 miles of range, assumign no stops, no wind of any kind, etc.


A potential setup for actually climbing a 20% slope with that weight/etc., is
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?batt=B7223_AC&cont=cust_100_200_0.03_V&axis=mph&hp=0&autothrot=true&throt=72.8&mass=140&grade=20&motor=MCRO5004
which at partial throttle gets you 20mph up the hill, but it still overheats in about 4 minues, and only gets you about 7 miles of range (though you won't get that far before it melts). But I had to put it up to a 72v battery, and a 100A controller, and a "3000w" motor, to do that.


So, your actual terrain will make a *huge* difference to what you need to accomplish your goals.

Winds will make a difference, too, if there's a lot fo wind it will greatly affect power, range, etc.

If you had no winds, and no slopes, many common inexpensive (except for battery, perhaps) setups would do what you want. But not with really steep slopes.

So we need to know details, or you can play with the simulator to see what happens with various setups and situations.

 

[Recumbum]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bcu3rjp0a3ujiie/UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_5c5.jpg?dl=0/img]

Heres hoping the link works. It's a photo looking from above the hwy from a pedestrian overpass. This is probably the steepest section of road I'd normally have to contend with. Sorry I can't give you a number for the grade but I suspect it to be 10% or less. This stretch would have to be ridden each day to get me down to the lake. From the lake it is probably 2-3kms at this grade and then levelling off more at the top for another 1-2kms but still climbing and not entirely flat. Once at the lake level it is all pretty much flat with gradual ups and downs.

As stated in my original post the 20-30mph will be intended for the flat areas as those speeds could not be maintained on the hills without a really powerful setup. I'd like a system capable of those speeds, not that I intend to ride at those speeds all the time. I'm 62 years young and enjoy smelling the roses and not being in a big hurry. I had enough of that when I was working. I'm sure 10-15mph would be quite pleasant. I can't picture myself being on the bike and not pedaling. I have a motorbike for that. I'd like the motor to assist me in my efforts, not for it to do all the work. Would a pedal assist with torque sensor be the answer to not cooking the motor? That way I would only get out of the motor what I put into the pedals?

 

[donn]

Sorry I can't give you a number for the grade but I suspect it to be 10% or less.

I have no way to tell, but have a suspicion that it's way less. How steep and how long will give you an idea whether you're going to have any trouble with it; if you can't get that data, I'd say don't worry, you aren't going to burn anything up on that. If that's the question. More work to determine effective battery range (especially given that you won't get advertised Ah out of the battery.)

I use google maps to get grade. Get the "route" from point A to point B, for "bicycle." That gives you distance and elevation. I switch the dimensions to metric to get better accuracy than 1/10 mile; yours will presumably already be that way. Then you can just divide elevation by distance and multiply by 100.