"1606" - Larger diameter 9c motor now available

[Ypedal]

What's it drawing No-Load ?

 

[icecube57]

2.15 to 2.25 with timing advance .....about 1.75-1.8A regular. 0.06-0.08A is controller overhead.

 

[Russell]

What causes a motor to draw more current. I just got my motor in and its factory sticker say 36v 600w 10x6. My GM pulled about 1800-1900w under load. This new 1606 is pulling about 2400w-2600w under load. Its actually causing my controller to heat up vs the GM I could run several 15-20 miles and it get luke warm.

If the new motor is drawing more power under load then assuming it's connected properly it's also likely delivering more power to the pavement than the old motor and should be faster up hills.

Using the simulator at ebikes.ca with the parameters from your signature, 64V/45A, and assuming a controller resistance of 0.08 you're talking a predicted peak power for the 1606 of 1710W at full throttle with ~70% efficiency for a draw of 2440W or right about what you're getting. The same parameters with the "Golden 500W" motor yields peak power of 1040W with 55% efficiency or 1900W, again close to your results.

-R

 

[John in CR]

My beef with such large diameters- lacing up a wheel with 1 cross spokes is a nightmare. Just isn't going to build up a long term reliable and serviceable wheel.

I'd have to say the issue is using bike stuff, not the motor diameter and short spokes. I'm still running strong after 17 months of my abuse. Abuse is the pounding of 240lb+ me on a very stiff hardtail. My maintenance consists of putting air in the tire once, but I think that was just to go with a bit more pressure. It's been so long I don't remember. As is painfully obvious this motor has never even been rinsed off, much less washed, so there's still salt and sand from Luke's rough wave incident. The wheel is still as solid and true as the day I installed it in early Dec '08

 

[johnrobholmes]

As much as I like to build with motorcycle rims, they just aren't an option on every bike frame. The best size I have found for a decently light weight yet solid wheel are 16" rims, 12 or 11ga spokes, and a pirelli ml 75 or Trailwing. 17" rims and Gazelle's aren't bad, but they can still be porky for a bicycle.

 

[icecube57]

I got my motor today. Exciting and and disappointing day. They motor is great. But there are little things that disappoint me.

The rim is narrow. 24mm inside width. Im not used to using such a small rim and my V-brakes dont appreciate it either.

The motor is spoked wrong. There is a spoke crossing right over the schrader valve hole making it impossible to pump the tire with standard pumps I had to got to the gas station and use their low profile fitting to pump my tire up.

The axel is 12mm instead of 14mm. So the torque arm I normally use on my motors is useless. I have to buy another torque arm

The motor is very wide. Only enough room for the motor and one washer on each side. My other motors could fit two washer my double torque arm inside of the fork.(About 2-3 more washers of space)

Very extreme spoke angles. They nipples look like they are screaming for dear life. Im almost scared to tighten them more.

Front hub is laced on the inside of the motor flange. The allows alot of lateral movement of the rim. Could cause the rim to drift away from the center axis with the motor under extreme side load such as high speed cornering. This offset can cause unwanted brake rub on finely tuned brakes that worked fine on an a stiffer wheel.

Ebikes Ca did tighten the wheel like i requested but even with the weight of the bike itself....rolling the bike around you could hear spokes moan creak and pop.

Regen is very weak on this wheel even with a big hill you can feel the slight drag but you are still going insanely fast . The amount of regen recover isnt as high as the GM an 9C.

Sounds like a jet turbine winding up and down. Even with no throttle input/ Motor disengaged. Motor unplugged from controller. You can still hear a whine.

Seems like a turbo lag. The torque starts off soft and then it comes in with the truth. GOTCHA!

The motor is torquey from a stand still but it seems like its really at home in the streets. It seems like it prefers to be in the upper rpms. This motor can benefit from flat and rolling terrain. There is defintely enough torque to build up speed to gain enough inertia to overcome any terrain. If you do encounter a steep hill it has more than enough usable torque to help out in any near stall situation. It just really seems like it doesnt want to be in the lower rpm. I will gladly chug and pull you along but once the terrain levels off or there is a slight downhill you really feel the bike pull away and wanting to accelerate out of your control. It defintely wants to go faster.

This motor seems to be able to induce alot more current than my other motors. It seems I hit a wall on current with my GM and 9C. But this motor is like a serial rapist telling the controller to give me you goodies. At an even 60v the GM was drawing 1800-1900w from the battery. This 1606 is drawing 2400-2600w. I saw a peak near 90A on a 45A controller. Yes I do have it programmed to overshoot the current for so many seconds but my GM never would pull anymore than about 38-45A continuous. Same controller no recent modifications. Its actually causing my controller to heat up vs the GM motor that I could run wot 15-20 miles and it get luke warm.

 

[icecube57]

What causes a motor to draw more current. I just got my motor in and its factory sticker say 36v 600w 10x6. My GM pulled about 1800-1900w under load. This new 1606 is pulling about 2400w-2600w under load. Its actually causing my controller to heat up vs the GM I could run several 15-20 miles and it get luke warm.

If the new motor is drawing more power under load then assuming it's connected properly it's also likely delivering more power to the pavement than the old motor and should be faster up hills.

Using the simulator at ebikes.ca with the parameters from your signature, 64V/45A, and assuming a controller resistance of 0.08 you're talking a predicted peak power for the 1606 of 1710W at full throttle with ~70% efficiency for a draw of 2440W or right about what you're getting. The same parameters with the "Golden 500W" motor yields peak power of 1040W with 55% efficiency or 1900W, again close to your results.

-R

That makes alot of sense! I thought with greater efficiency consumption goes down but it seems to have the opposite effect. I know the GM was inefficent and dumped alot of the power input as heat especially at high grades and speeds. Ive only played around with the motor for about 30 min riding up and down my street so i cant give real solid figures.

 

[icecube57]

Im really concerned about how much the phase wires are heating on the 1606. My voltage is at 60v under load. The controller is 40-45A. The controller is pulling between 2400-2600w from the battery according to the CA the speed and torque are great but the controller and phase wires are heating up from what little riding I'm doing. I was not having this problem with my previous motors. Can you shed some light on this. There is no way that that these wires can sustain any extended riding. As Ive mention before my previous motors have the original harness through the axle. Mild heat heating did occur but I was barely able to feel any heat through the sheathing of the cable. With this motor riding 1 or 2 minutes gives me a pretty hot wire. I only experienced the same thing with my previous setups when running 72-96v. I have 12G phase extension cable running between the controller and the motor. The cable is terminated with 45A andersons. This extension cable doesn’t get warm. My hall and phase combo are green constant with blue and yellow swapped. Its spins up and runs smoothly. I'm running my trusty reliable Ecrazyman 72v 45A Infineon controller. I'm able to run any voltage off of it. Its been in good working order for the past year. It has 4310 mosfets. My controller gets very warm also. These are things Im just not used to. I used to push my previous setup very hard without issue. My current setup with the 1606 I don’t think its as solid as I would hope for it to be from the performace and speed junkie standpoint. There are things that have to be tweaked. Its either the motor or the controller is going to get pushed over the edge. I can upgrade the phase wiring but that wont fix the controller overheating and getting hot.

I seems the motor has too fewer turns/wound to low for higher speed. I can not easily generate enough back EMF to limit the phase current. I notice this also from the regen braking. The return current is low and braking is very weak. Barely 3-400w return with the 1606 vs 5-600w+ with my GM and about the same maybe a little less with the stock 9c.

The winding choice is understandable considering the larger diameter motor is generating more torque so you don’t need to amplify that even more with a high turn motor. So currently the motor is drawing an excessive amount of current because the output voltage of the motor can't match the input voltage of the controller (on a 26inch wheel) so it draws excessive current continuously and its not allowed to taper off. This is my opinion at 60v. It may not be an issue at 36-48v but at higher voltages this motor has to be put into a smaller wheel to allow it to spin up fast enough to create the back emf needed to reduce the phase current for continuous operation.

 

[spinningmagnets]

"...There is a spoke crossing right over the schrader valve hole making it impossible to pump the tire with standard pumps..."

Google "valve stem extension". These are cheap, perhaps this wheel should ship with one already mounted?

 

[icecube57]

The rim could have been easily reposition during the machine lacing. Im thinking since the motor was in mass production that this may be an isolated flaw. Ill look out for that valve. I really dont feel like relacing.

This motor is going to have to wait for a proper beating a while until I can overhaul the whole wheel. I have to get the spoke tension tighter and then retrue the wheel to get to stop speaking in tounges and making weird noises at me when rolling around loaded or unloaded. There seems to be a weird roughness or vibration from the wheel when i spin it slowly. Not sure if its a bearing issue or something. I have yet to open the motor up.

In my previous post I complained about the motor phase wire harness heating up. This is only at 60v. Im pumping some decent amount of watts through it but it should be hot like they are getting considering Ive pumped 4k+ watts through a similar harness on the GM and it didnt get hot at tacky feeling. I gotta get the funds to get some stranded 10 or 12 wire and strip a section long enough to get through the axle and solder to the phase and have a long enough tail to reterminate with fresh connectors. Re-shrink wrap the stripped phase wires with some high temp shrink wrap so it has a thinner heat resistant and abrasion resistant jacket/sheath. Also shrink wrap the halls and fish it all through the axle. I accept donations! Various wire or materials to complete the process. Then maybe I can stretch her legs out a 72v and not worry about shorting the phase cause playing around with it again Im about a 5 minute ride away from screwing up a controller with the way its currently acting. Even after the phase wire upgrade something has to be done with my controller to keep it cooler with this motor.

I have to purchase a 12mm set of torque arms to run at 60v or 72v. I have fender eyelets so Ebikes CA torque arm should work fine. From what I can tell shes a beast. Im not going to risk a spin out cause I dont have torque arms. I thought it would surely have the 14mm axle but it doesnt.

This motor has alot of promise. It kinda has the behavior of a high speed wound 5302 or 5303. It just sucks up power and makes heat but for its size and weight im impressed. I think it needs an extra turn or two to slow it down abit and it will pick up even more torque in the process. It should increase the resistance a little bit and stop the controller from shoving amps down its throat. I think Justin should order some more and play around with the winding count. Its currently 10x6 . Alot of parallel wires and they are short. Low resistance!

The surface area of the motor is huge. But what im concerned about is motor width. The side cover make the motor seem kinda wide. Which makes me think that the windings arent that close to the side overs so I think it will be insulated by the extra air between the cover and the windings allowing windings to heat up more. There will be a delayed temp change so what you feel on the side cover is s faux reading and the motor temp will be a bit higher than what you feel.

 

[icecube57]

I got two responses from Justin in response to the email I sent him which was almost an exact copy of what i posted on the forum a few posts back.

Hey Chris and thanks for the detailed feedback here. The issues about the lacing, narrow rim, and spoke crossing over the valve hole are rather ridiculous, but that is something that can be addressed easily enough by us rebuilding the wheels at this end. Nine Continent really don't have their heads screwed on straight when it comes to these kinds of details.

I am surprised there would be any difference in the amount of regen that you get. That is a detail that should depend entirely on the controller and shouldn't really be affected by the motor per se. It is possible that either the higher pole count or the lower V/rpm of this rather fast winding affects the controller's regen rate, but this isn't something that would be intrinsic to the hub. I am assuming you are using a regen controller right, and not just relying on the back-emf voltage to exceed the battery voltage?

Turbine noise sounds, Interesting. I guess these giant side covers are like huge resonant cavities. I'm pretty sure that if we had a sinusoidal rather than a trapezoidal controller then both the 273mm and the 205mm NC motors would be as stealth, smooth, and silent as a Crystalyte hub.

The reason that this motor is drawing a fair but more current than your 9C or golden is because we had it wound with a faster wind, comparable to the 10x6 winding of the 205mm motor. If you were to compare it side by side with that, you'd find that it has slightly lower current draw all else the same because of it's better efficiency under load. I wouldn't use this winding at more than 48V unless you really need the top end speed.

The rear hubs we have with 14mm axles, for front we stick with 12mm because there can be lots of issues fitting 14mm front axles inside forks with lawyer lips. But your torque arm should still work all the same, since both the 12mm and 14mm axles are 10mm on the flats.

Justin

Hi Chris, yes the phase wire seems to be the same gauge as used in the 205mm 9C motors, which is NOT thick enough for a 2500 W setup! I'd say about 1500 W max, which would be a 48V 35A pack/controller combo, and that would give you a nice comfortable top speed while sticking to readily available battery and charger standards.

Since the motor is a faster wind than your others, it requires more phase current to achieve the same output torque, and this would result in both the controller and the motor leads getting hotter. For the kind of system that you are running, I would think that the same hub but with a slower 8 or 9 turn winding would be more appropriate as you suggest. However, you could for sure replace the phase leads through the axle with 12 AWG and then have no worries about those wires overheating in your 60V 45A system. The 4310 mosfets are only so-so, about twice the resistance as 4110's, so you could reduce the controller heating in half with better fets. With those changes I would have any worry about the system integrity.

But in the end, if you are running at 60V then the unloaded RPM is some 45+ MPH, which is well beyond a normal cruising speed and not an ideal pairing between pack voltage and hub, unless you have a CA-DP or other device to limit your power consumption at the upper end.

Justin

 

[icecube57]

Also I just swapped back to the GM and upon taking the 1606 off I notice that there was a partial spinout. Apparently the way the axle seated it did not seat on the wide and flatter thread area but on the smooth shoulder. No actual damage was done except my drop outs arent tight anymore they are about 1mm spread out. Justin says that the 14mm torque arm should still fit the 12mm because the flat area on both should be 10mm. The Standard 9c and my GM have 14mm axles with 10mm flats and the torque are fits snug over the axle. But with the 1606 my torque are was not tight at all on the 10mm side. I could almost spin it with on good yank on it. I dont have a Micrometer to check the actual thickness of the motor axle but I kinda suspect its a little smaller than stated and the smooth part of the axle (although having machined flats) being in the dropouts didnt help any. Im thinking the axle maybe slightly undersized cause even the machine axle shoulder was barely machined so it more of a rounded profile than flat.

 

[icecube57]

I think I just found out why the axle might have sput... besides not having a torque arm. If you look at axle flats on one side of the motor the left side has more "flat" surface area than the right side and the opposite goes for the other side. Since there is one side on both sides of the both sides of the motor that arent truely flat its a weak point that allows for axle rotation within the dropout. A torque arm wouldnt have prevented a spinout in this case. I will post picture in a second.

 

[icecube57]

I was just thinking about this today. I tried a torque arm on the motor and it feels solid despite the bad offset axle flats. But one think that poped into my mind is that this is supposed to be the successor to the 2800 series 9c. I think someone should use this motor for racing. Hear me out. These motors are natuarally 10x6. This makes it a very low wind for a motor. It got my controller quite warm. I think thats a good indicator on how low the resistance are in the windings. But if you put this front motor in a rear wheel and drop it down into a 16 or 20 inch wheel. It would be crazy. Smaller magnets larger diameter and same torque. It compareable to a 5304/9x6/406 as far as speed and torque. But here is the icing on the cake. What If you series the windings into a 5x12. You have a very slow motor but it will make the 6x10 look like a bastard child. and you could throw all the voltage you want at it and the controller would be ice cold.

 

[will_newton]

I have this motor and agree on most all points made. I run mine at 48v (12s lipo) and have the 35A controller upgrade. This is all the motor wiring can handle bone stock without some heat management. It really needs new wiring if you go any higher. Justin informed me of this before the purchase and I'd agree. Will it handle more? Yes, obviously it will, but don't expect to pull craploads of high voltage/high amps non-stop with paying the price.

In hindsight, I should've just gotten the 25A controller. As it is, I run it at 20A (limited via CA) and everything stays perfectly cool at all times and I'd expect it to run well for a VERY long time.

Yes, it does sound like a turbine. It actually sounds pretty cool, but honestly, I don't want it to sound like anything. With the juice rolled on the noise is loud enough to draw attention. I just prefer stealthy and silent and this motor is neither.

Performance wise, acceleration is a bit slow initially, but after 15 mph or so it really starts to move out. The best of the power range is in the upper end. You can nail the throttle at 20 MPH and it will jump up and git.

So what's up with this motor? The phrase "Damned by faint praise." comes to mind. It is a good motor, it is a solid product and ebikes.ca provides great service and I have no complaints about the other electronics at all. What needs to happen is for some mod-happy guy to open it up and redo the wiring for the hub, maybe re-lace it onto a nice rim and THEN post a review.

9C was so close to great on this motor, but let the details fall through the cracks.

I will say it's a great 48V front hub non-disc brushless motor and I would choose it over a regular 9C any day. It's just not the X5 contender that folks might hope it would be, but in the right hands it COULD be close in certain respects. I just wonder who will take that chance.

 

[icecube57]

I fully agree. I want to replace my phase wires and upgrade the wiring to atleast 12awg. They didnt help us at all with the 12mm axle so someone might have to opt out halls for bigger phase wires and if possible move to a sensorless controller. Good motor when ran the way it was intended. Great potential if they follow up on our suggestions.

 

[amberwolf]

Doing like John in CR has discussed and using a larger ID bearing on the wire exit side, with the wires inside the bearing but outside the axle would allow as big a wires as you want. Depends on how they made the side covers--you might have to machine your own replacement or at least a new section for the bearing housing area to bolt to the existing cover.

 

[karma]

here is a few bad pics with the side plates off. wire upgrade.

wire used draka elevator wire rated for 600volts :wink:

http://www.drakausa.com/

i tested the wheel at 79volts 22 amps its fast

in the process of uploading a video to youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqtQAe-NdBs

cheers

 

[karma]

lol i don't think the phase wires are going to be a problem. six phase wires plus temp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsXoSdGQ44k

cheers

 

[John in CR]

While someone has theirs open, how thick are the laminations on the stator? Count how many per cm is the easiest way for me and my old eyes.

 

[karma]

i need to open this one for fine tuning. ill have a look :wink:

 

[karma]

ok finished it is now a 6 wire hubmotor dual ended :wink:

[youtube]82bC4HGx-og[/youtube]

 

[grindz145]

ok finished it is now a 6 wire hubmotor :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82bC4HGx-og

Nice! Wye-Delta switching FTW.

 

[John in CR]

As cheap as they are, Grin has them clearances at $120, for someone local it could justify a hack-a-hubbie and turn 2 motors into one double wide 2X1606 at significantly less that double the weight.

How many stator slots does this puppy have? How many magnet poles?

Remove the copper and then it would me a simple matter to attach the stators together and rewind it for use as a multi-controller rig using sensorless controllers. It would also be a matter of simplicity to join the 2 rotors. The side covers would fit exactly as original, though I would retain the solid axle part for both stators and mod 1 cover to accept a much larger bearing for wire routing.

Not only would this give you twice as powerful a motor, but you also solve all the wheel issues the narrow motor has due to the too closely spaced spoke flanges. On top of that you can optimize the copper fill as well as cut the wasted end turn copper by half, and last but not least you get a great sensorless operation with high power using very cheap RC controllers.

I make it sound so easy, I should do the same with a pair of my powerful hubbies since I have 5 of them. Actually the only thing holding me back is the slot count of 51. For total uniformity I can use only 1 3-phase controller, or 17 controllers, though I think I could do something like 1 controllers gets 2 coils on each phase, and 5 controllers get 3 on each phase. The 80mm stator would make it an absolute monster. temptations temptations. 8)

 

[karma]

i totally forgot the count i think it was 57 poles