19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tires)

[cwah]

It's with 20" wheel

 

[Rix]

It's with 20" wheel

I can do some research and try to find you a narrower, I agree with you that 3" tires are going to work.

 

[cwah]

Yes thanks if you can find any moped tyreto fit my 1.75" rim that would be great. Otherwise what rim and tyre to buy? Thanks

 

[Rix]

Yes thanks if you can find any moped tyreto fit my 1.75" rim that would be great. Otherwise what rim and tyre to buy? Thanks

Looks like from the center of your swing arm to the center of the drop out is a 11 inches. So that gives you max tire OD of 21.75, which would allow for 1/8" clearance and it looks like you got a max space clearance of 3.25 inches which gives us about 2.75" of width for 1/4" clearance on each side of the tire at the widest point. Based on these known parameters, if we can't locate you a 16" MC tire that is 2.75" or less and around 21" OD, then we need to look at a 14MC rim for you bike like this one with 36 hole drill though http://www.prowheelracing.com/honda-ktm-suzuki-yamaha-mini-bike-rear-rim-1-60-x-14-black/. I know the 17MC rim running the smallest tires I can find are 22" OD. So that wont work.

 

[Rix]

Yes thanks if you can find any moped tyreto fit my 1.75" rim that would be great. Otherwise what rim and tyre to buy? Thanks

Check out this tire. Its 2.5-16 tire. http://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tubes/motorcycle-tires/bridgestone-trail-wing-tw9-motorcycle-tire
Before you pull the trigger, measure your rim. Should be 16 inches bead to bead. If it is, I think we got a winner for you.

 

[macribs]

Curious to know if I should use single butted or double butted spokes for front rim?
Novatech DH 41 hub, 19" x 1.6" rim, 14G spokes. This wheel need to be as strong as can be within the boundaries set by spoke thickness, hub and rim.

My understanding is that double butted spokes are stronger then single butted or even straight spokes, because they are thicker in both ends, where most of the destructive forces are working. While the slimmer mid section allows for more flex which will put less strain on the anchor points.

What do you think, double butted spokes or single butted? I came across this from another webiste, do this apply also for spokes to motocross rims?

Double Butted Spokes

• Lighter than Straight Spokes, yet keep the strength from thicker spokes
• More elasticity in the wheel (less rigid / will flex some before breaking), and thereby more resistance to breakage due to fatigue over time.
• Spokes will bow out less at the crossings
• Easier to bend/lace
• When overtightened or stressed too hard, the spoke is more likely to snap than the rim eyelets or the hub's flange

 

[Jimboyr6]

Hey rix
Got me a tyre and rim now and spokes so im all ready for my conversion, i need to weigh them see how much im looking at dont feel to bad, the tyres a 2.50x19 chengshin

 

[Rix]

Hey rix
Got me a tyre and rim now and spokes so im all ready for my conversion, i need to weigh them see how much im looking at dont feel to bad, the tyres a 2.50x19 chengshin

Very sweet, when you get a chance, measure the inflated height and width of this tire. I am guessing around 24.6" tall and true to size with it being right around 2.75 inches wide. Let us know.

Curious to know if I should use single butted or double butted spokes for front rim?

I would go with Straight Gauge 13guage spokes. The rim I have from JRH is the perfect balance between being rigid, but not so rigid that the flange will break on the hub. Just enough flex so that's not an issue. Some say flex in wheels is a good thing. If its more than a tiny bit, I disagree, if you want some of the harshness removed from your wheel, don't inflate the tire as much.

 

[Jimboyr6]

Thanks Rix
i shall check those measurements tomorrow
But on quick inspection i think ur right

 

[macribs]

Thx Rix. The thought is that is is better to use double butted 14 gauge spokes then needing to drill out hub flanges to fit 13 gauge spokes. Because the 14gauge double butted spokes has the same diameter in the endings like the thicker 13 gauge spokes.

Seems in the DH world many claims big benefits from double butted spokes, and those guys are giving their wheels one heck of a beating if they overshoot jumps and land on the flat. Yet those wheels can take the abuse.

Here is what wheel guru and long time "wheelman" for various pro DH teams Roger Musson says about it:
You can purchase his wheelbuilding book if you like, seems like a great guide at more then 100 pages and goes for 9£.
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

Plain gauge spokes
Plain gauge spokes (also called straight gauge spokes) have a constant diameter which is typically 2mm (1.8mm spokes exist but I have never seen them). It may look and feel stronger than a double butted spoke but if either is going to break then it will be at the spoke elbow or the spoke threads where both spokes are identical in diameter. So they are not stronger, in fact they are theoretically more prone to fatigue failures at the spoke elbow (for the reason see Double butted spokes below).

By all means build with plain gauge but just remember that you aren’t doing it for strength reasons. Modern spoke material will help alleviate the problem of fatigue failures and I’ve built wheels with plain gauge spokes that have survived thousands of miles. The short spoke lengths required for small diameter wheels are often only available in plain gauge and they are perfectly okay. If you are using lightweight rims then don’t use plain gauge spokes because the spokes are not elastic enough to absorb the greater rim deflections, light carbon rims are okay because they are very stiff. However, if you have the choice and you want the best in long term durable wheels then choose double butted spokes.




Double butted spokes
Double butted spokes (also called swaged spokes) have a central portion of a reduced diameter and the reason is not primarily for weight saving. The mid section of the butted spoke is more elastic compared to its ends and this section will cushion the fluctuating spoke tensions as the wheel rotates (the spokes at the bottom of the wheel support the rider’s weight, in the rotating wheel as the spokes move towards the bottom they lose tension before regaining it as they move away). With


a plain gauge spoke the change in spoke tension is taken directly on the spoke ends and hence the greater chance of a fatigue failure particularly at the elbow which is already a heavily stress region. Fatigue is where concentrated cyclic loads cause the metal to slowly form a crack which ultimately results in a fracture, an example of this is the cracked spoke on page 105. The inbuilt stretch of the double butted spoke will also ensure the spoke does not become totally unloaded as the rim deflects under load which can cause the nipple to unscrew and the spoke to loosen.

The standard double butted spoke is 2mm-1.8mm-2mm (thread-centre-elbow) and these dimensions make an excellent fatigue resistant spoke which is a fraction lighter than the plain gauge spoke. A true lightweight butted spoke has the dimensions 2mm-1.5mm-2mm (DT Revolution and Sapim Laser). The lighter version builds a wheel that is just as strong as those built with standard double butted spokes and you aim to build the wheel with the same tension. You will find these slender spokes twist easily during tensioning and are therefore more difficult to build with (identifying spoke twist and compensating for it is described in the building chapter). The weight saving from using the lightweight spoke is small and you will have to judge for yourself whether any weight savings are noticeable when riding the bike.

Triple butted spokes
A triple butted spoke has three diameters along its length and the most common triple butted spoke you’ll come across is the DT Supercomp with dimensions 1.8mm-1.7mm-2mm (thread- centre-elbow). They cost more but they offer no advantage when compared to a standard double butted spoke and because they use a 1.8mm thread you need to be careful (see the discussion on 1.8mm spoke threads later on).

Oversized spokes
Spokes designed for heavy loads (say the spoke manufacturers) have a larger diameter at the spoke elbow which is typically 2.3mm. The spoke can be a single butted design such as the Sapim Strong where the diameter is constant for the majority of its length at 2mm but with an increase to 2.3mm towards the spoke elbow, or a triple butted design such as the DT Alpine with dimensions 2mm-1.8mm-2.3mm (thread-centre-elbow). This type of spoke came from the logic - if it breaks then make it bigger which may have had some merit many years ago when spoke material was a lot poorer than it is today and spoke failure at the elbow was more common. Oversized spoke elbows are not a cure for spoke breakages, good building technique solves spoke breakages, nor do they give the wheel added strength. With today’s higher grade of steel, the standard double butted spoke is more than strong enough for all wheels and consequently I have never used these over sized spokes. If you decide to use these large diameter spokes then make sure they pass through the spoke holes in your hub.

Bladed spokes
The original flat bladed spokes have a width of around 3mm and although they still exist (DT New Aero at 3.3mm wide and Sapim CX at 2.8mm) they are not a spoke you would choose because they will not pass through the holes in a normal hub. When this was the only flat bladed spoke available the work-around was to file small slots in the hub holes to allow the bladed spoke to pass through, this was never a good solution because it weakened the hub and invalidated the hub warranty. I have never used these large bladed spokes.

The large bladed spoke has now been superseded by lightweight bladed spokes such as the CX-Ray from Sapim and the Aerospeed and Aerolight from DT. The width of these spokes is typically around 2.3mm and they will pass through the spoke holes in all hubs. These spokes twist easily when building and require a special tool to hold them whilst tensioning (described in the tool section) and without such a tool they would be impossible to tension sufficiently. The lightweight bladed spokes are expensive and you need to be realistic in your expectations and the benefits you are likely to gain from using them. I would not use lightweight bladed spokes in mountain bike wheels because they will not improve the aero effect or wheel strength, they won’t make the wheel poorer, they just add a considerable amount to the cost. Marketing claims from Sapim refer to additional strength for the lightweight bladed spokes but they only endure more cycles on their fatigue testing machine which does not correspond to wheel strength and the increased fatigue life that is quoted has no bearing in the real world. On road race wheels the increased aero performance is small and the good riders who’s wheels I build with these spokes tell me they notice an improvement, but I cannot tell any difference myself.

Straight pull spokes
Hubs must be specifically designed to take straight pull spokes and although a few of them exist they are likely to be problematic in calculating spoke lengths and finding a supplier of spokes. Wheels built with straight pull spokes are no better (or worse) than those using normal hubs and spokes. There is nothing special in the manufacturing process of straight pull spokes, in fact they are easier to make because they just take them off the spoke making machine one stage early before they receive the thump that bends over the elbow .

 

[Rix]

Thx Rix. The thought is that is is better to use double butted 14 gauge spokes then needing to drill out hub flanges to fit 13 gauge spokes. Because the 14gauge double butted spokes has the same diameter in the endings like the thicker 13 gauge spokes.

Seems in the DH world many claims big benefits from double butted spokes, and those guys are giving their wheels one heck of a beating if they overshoot jumps and land on the flat. Yet those wheels can take the abuse.

Here is what wheel guru and long time "wheelman" for various pro DH teams Roger Musson says about it:

Plain gauge spokes
Plain gauge spokes (also called straight gauge spokes) have a constant diameter which is typically 2mm (1.8mm spokes exist but I have never seen them). It may look and feel stronger than a double butted spoke but if either is going to break then it will be at the spoke elbow or the spoke threads where both spokes are identical in diameter. So they are not stronger, in fact they are theoretically more prone to fatigue failures at the spoke elbow (for the reason see Double butted spokes below).

By all means build with plain gauge but just remember that you aren’t doing it for strength reasons. Modern spoke material will help alleviate the problem of fatigue failures and I’ve built wheels with plain gauge spokes that have survived thousands of miles. The short spoke lengths required for small diameter wheels are often only available in plain gauge and they are perfectly okay. If you are using lightweight rims then don’t use plain gauge spokes because the spokes are not elastic enough to absorb the greater rim deflections, light carbon rims are okay because they are very stiff. However, if you have the choice and you want the best in long term durable wheels then choose double butted spokes.




Double butted spokes
Double butted spokes (also called swaged spokes) have a central portion of a reduced diameter and the reason is not primarily for weight saving. The mid section of the butted spoke is more elastic compared to its ends and this section will cushion the fluctuating spoke tensions as the wheel rotates (the spokes at the bottom of the wheel support the rider’s weight, in the rotating wheel as the spokes move towards the bottom they lose tension before regaining it as they move away). With


a plain gauge spoke the change in spoke tension is taken directly on the spoke ends and hence the greater chance of a fatigue failure particularly at the elbow which is already a heavily stress region. Fatigue is where concentrated cyclic loads cause the metal to slowly form a crack which ultimately results in a fracture, an example of this is the cracked spoke on page 105. The inbuilt stretch of the double butted spoke will also ensure the spoke does not become totally unloaded as the rim deflects under load which can cause the nipple to unscrew and the spoke to loosen.

The standard double butted spoke is 2mm-1.8mm-2mm (thread-centre-elbow) and these dimensions make an excellent fatigue resistant spoke which is a fraction lighter than the plain gauge spoke. A true lightweight butted spoke has the dimensions 2mm-1.5mm-2mm (DT Revolution and Sapim Laser). The lighter version builds a wheel that is just as strong as those built with standard double butted spokes and you aim to build the wheel with the same tension. You will find these slender spokes twist easily during tensioning and are therefore more difficult to build with (identifying spoke twist and compensating for it is described in the building chapter). The weight saving from using the lightweight spoke is small and you will have to judge for yourself whether any weight savings are noticeable when riding the bike.

Triple butted spokes
A triple butted spoke has three diameters along its length and the most common triple butted spoke you’ll come across is the DT Supercomp with dimensions 1.8mm-1.7mm-2mm (thread- centre-elbow). They cost more but they offer no advantage when compared to a standard double butted spoke and because they use a 1.8mm thread you need to be careful (see the discussion on 1.8mm spoke threads later on).

Oversized spokes
Spokes designed for heavy loads (say the spoke manufacturers) have a larger diameter at the spoke elbow which is typically 2.3mm. The spoke can be a single butted design such as the Sapim Strong where the diameter is constant for the majority of its length at 2mm but with an increase to 2.3mm towards the spoke elbow, or a triple butted design such as the DT Alpine with dimensions 2mm-1.8mm-2.3mm (thread-centre-elbow). This type of spoke came from the logic - if it breaks then make it bigger which may have had some merit many years ago when spoke material was a lot poorer than it is today and spoke failure at the elbow was more common. Oversized spoke elbows are not a cure for spoke breakages, good building technique solves spoke breakages, nor do they give the wheel added strength. With today’s higher grade of steel, the standard double butted spoke is more than strong enough for all wheels and consequently I have never used these over sized spokes. If you decide to use these large diameter spokes then make sure they pass through the spoke holes in your hub.

Bladed spokes
The original flat bladed spokes have a width of around 3mm and although they still exist (DT New Aero at 3.3mm wide and Sapim CX at 2.8mm) they are not a spoke you would choose because they will not pass through the holes in a normal hub. When this was the only flat bladed spoke available the work-around was to file small slots in the hub holes to allow the bladed spoke to pass through, this was never a good solution because it weakened the hub and invalidated the hub warranty. I have never used these large bladed spokes.

The large bladed spoke has now been superseded by lightweight bladed spokes such as the CX-Ray from Sapim and the Aerospeed and Aerolight from DT. The width of these spokes is typically around 2.3mm and they will pass through the spoke holes in all hubs. These spokes twist easily when building and require a special tool to hold them whilst tensioning (described in the tool section) and without such a tool they would be impossible to tension sufficiently. The lightweight bladed spokes are expensive and you need to be realistic in your expectations and the benefits you are likely to gain from using them. I would not use lightweight bladed spokes in mountain bike wheels because they will not improve the aero effect or wheel strength, they won’t make the wheel poorer, they just add a considerable amount to the cost. Marketing claims from Sapim refer to additional strength for the lightweight bladed spokes but they only endure more cycles on their fatigue testing machine which does not correspond to wheel strength and the increased fatigue life that is quoted has no bearing in the real world. On road race wheels the increased aero performance is small and the good riders who’s wheels I build with these spokes tell me they notice an improvement, but I cannot tell any difference myself.

Straight pull spokes
Hubs must be specifically designed to take straight pull spokes and although a few of them exist they are likely to be problematic in calculating spoke lengths and finding a supplier of spokes. Wheels built with straight pull spokes are no better (or worse) than those using normal hubs and spokes. There is nothing special in the manufacturing process of straight pull spokes, in fact they are easier to make because they just take them off the spoke making machine one stage early before they receive the thump that bends over the elbow .

My flange wasn't drilled, 13g units fit right in. I suppose that some hubs can come with smaller spoke holes on the flange.

 

[kiwiev]

Hey Rick

Thanks for all your great advice I am really happy with the look of 17" moto rear and 24" mtb front.

Cheers Kiwi

 

[Jimboyr6]

Jimboyr6 wrote:
Hey rix
Got me a tyre and rim now and spokes so im all ready for my conversion, i need to weigh them see how much im looking at dont feel to bad, the tyres a 2.50x19 chengshin


Very sweet, when you get a chance, measure the inflated height and width of this tire. I am guessing around 24.6" tall and true to size with it being right around 2.75 inches wide. Let us know.

Rix
Inflated hight is 24.4 inchs
Width is 2.45-50
So its right on width wise.

 

[Rix]

Jimboyr6 wrote:
Hey rix
Got me a tyre and rim now and spokes so im all ready for my conversion, i need to weigh them see how much im looking at dont feel to bad, the tyres a 2.50x19 chengshin


Very sweet, when you get a chance, measure the inflated height and width of this tire. I am guessing around 24.6" tall and true to size with it being right around 2.75 inches wide. Let us know.

Rix
Inflated hight is 24.4 inchs
Width is 2.45-50
So its right on width wise.

Thanks Jimboy, I am surprised I was off by the width as much as I was, I looked bigger than that in the picture. My VRM021 2.75-19 mic's in at 2.6 inches, and it looks narrower than yours Chenshin. I used to run Chenshin on my 1982 Husqvarna XC 430 back in 84. Old Skool man.

 

[Rix]

Hey Rick

Thanks for all your great advice I am really happy with the look of 17" moto rear and 24" mtb front.

Cheers Kiwi

You bike looks awesome mate, how soon till its running?

 

[kiwiev]

Thanks Rick I like the look there doesn't seem to be another like it

The bike should be running in the next 2 week's just waiting on cranks to turn up.

Cheers Kiwi

 

[Jimboyr6]

Hey Rick

Thanks for all your great advice I am really happy with the look of 17" moto rear and 24" mtb front.

Cheers Kiwi

Those mudguards are narley proper mx stile
Will work great at stopping all the shit going on ur machine nice work,
What battery set up u going with?

 

[cwah]

Yes thanks if you can find any moped tyreto fit my 1.75" rim that would be great. Otherwise what rim and tyre to buy? Thanks

Check out this tire. Its 2.5-16 tire. http://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tubes/motorcycle-tires/bridgestone-trail-wing-tw9-motorcycle-tire
Before you pull the trigger, measure your rim. Should be 16 inches bead to bead. If it is, I think we got a winner for you.

what about this tyre?
http://www.mytyres.co.uk/cgi-bin/rshop.pl?dsco=110&cart_id=4115897.110.10824&Breite=2.25&Quer=&Felge=16&Speed=&Load=&kategorie=&Marke=&tyre_for=&x_tyre_for=&rsmFahrzeugart=MO&filter_preis_bis=&filter_preis_von=&homologation=&details=Ordern&typ=R-130870

it's from a uk site so i can buy from there. but it look like an old tyre

 

[Rix]

That should clear your swingarm crotch and stays without a problem. It will work for off road, but clearly that tire is made for pavement. I say since its readily available, give it try.

 

[kiwiev]

Hey Rick

Thanks for all your great advice I am really happy with the look of 17" moto rear and 24" mtb front.

Cheers Kiwi

Those mudguards are narley proper mx stile
Will work great at stopping all the shit going on ur machine nice work,
What battery set up u going with?

Thanks Jim

I'm really pleased with the look of the mud guard's, battery wise I want 18650 but will have to save for that.

For now I have another ser of 6 x 6s 15ah Lipo in a 2p 18s setup


Cheers Kiwi

 

[bigbore]

My MC tyres arrived yesterday but the rim is stuck at the customs.
This is what look like the 70/100 -19 m-7300 MAXXIS with Halo Contra 24X3.00:

And this is the 2.75-19 vrm-021 VEE RUBBER with Berm Master 24x3.00:

 

[Rix]

Nice Grand Allesagio! which tire are you going to run first?

 

[bigbore]

The first will be 7300 MAXXIS rear with Halo Contra front because the trails near my home are on sand and soft stuff.
This morning arrived the Holmes hobbies rim and it looks like very good, I can't find any blemish on it and the nipples fits perfect in the holes that are inclined to match the hub motor that is a very good feature to have.

Now the most difficut part to came .... the lacing on my 5403 motor

 

[Rix]

and the nipples fits perfect in the holes that are inclined to match the hub motor that is a very good feature to have.

Stanno ah panello. Can't wait to see it mounted up.

 

[cwah]

That should clear your swingarm crotch and stays without a problem. It will work for off road, but clearly that tire is made for pavement. I say since its readily available, give it try.

Thanks I was about to buy it but today I was tightening my spokes and I tend to damage the nipples in the process because of the very small clearance on my 20" wheel.

I wonder if I shall change the rim to a good one instead to avoid this spoke tightening pain? Or even maybe change it all to a casted wheel?