19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tires)

[FluxZoom]

Also, I highly recommend you get a spoke torque wrench when building your own wheels. You can't do this by feel very well, trust me and don't think you can unless you have built 100's of wheels. The Torque wrench will guarantee you get the proper torque spec for each spoke which is around 30 inch lbs if I remember correctly. The wheel won't come untrue.

There is simply now way of knowing how tight you have the spokes unless you use this. You will most likely not tension high enough and the wheel will come untrue.

I personally use the Buchanan spoke torque wrench, but I guess you can use what ever motorcycle one will work with your spokes. I like the buchanan design because it allows me to bring up the torque spec slowly, like to 10 inch pounds, then to 15, 20, 22, 25, 28, 30. This makes sure all spokes are equally tensioned.

http://www.convertunits.com/from/lbf/in/to/kgf/cm

Is that right that you put a maximum of 30 inch pounds or 5kgf on your motorcycle wheel spokes?

 

[Offroader]

5 kgf? I believe you need a measurement like kgf cm or meters.

 

[FluxZoom]

http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/inch-pounds-to-kilogram-force-centimeters-conversion.html Perhaps this is accurate? 34 kgf is where your limits reside for a motorcycle rim spoke build?

 

[Offroader]

http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/inch-pounds-to-kilogram-force-centimeters-conversion.html Perhaps this is accurate? 34 kgf is where your limits reside for a motorcycle rim spoke build?

Dirt bikes use around 48 inch pounds.

I decided on 30 because I didnt want to break the thin steel on my cromotor. I bet 48 would work, but didnt want to chance it and dont think an ebike needs 48.

So you can experiment to be honest, but I would say at least 30, but maybe 25 could work.

If you dont know how to tension and dont have a torque wrench it is easy to not torque enough. You may think 15 inch lbs is high and torqued enough but it isnt, and wheel will come untrue. 30 lbs is really high, but still low for a real dirt bike.

Even tension is also important.

But it is all about high tension, before I knew how to tension properly my wheels were always coming untrue. It got to a point where I would check tension during my rides, and before each ride. Spokes just kept coming loose.

Then I tried loctit which didnt help.

Then I finally got a torque wrench, torqued peoperly and high and never had an issue again. Never a single loose spoke, when I used to get like 3 to 5 on some offroad rides. I went from having to check spoke tension every ride to never having to do it anymore.

 

[FluxZoom]

http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/inch-pounds-to-kilogram-force-centimeters-conversion.html Perhaps this is accurate? 34 kgf is where your limits reside for a motorcycle rim spoke build?

Dirt bikes use around 48 inch pounds.

I decided on 30 because I didnt want to break the thin steel on my cromotor. I bet 48 would work, but didnt want to chance it and dont think an ebike needs 48.

So you can experiment to be honest, but I would say at least 30, but maybe 25 could work.

If you dont know how to tension and dont have a torque wrench it is easy to not torque enough. You may think 15 inch lbs is high and torqued enough but it isnt, and wheel will come untrue. 30 lbs is really high, but still low for a real dirt bike.

Even tension is also important.

I completely agree that some method of physically measuring and knowing spoke tension is very important for wheel building as well as even spoke tension through out the build.

Thanks for sharing your insight in the subject, I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this subject. You must have built many wheels.

Where did you come up with the 34kgf figure? Was there some resource or individual that taught you to use this amount of tension? Maybe you know of a really great book or video on the subject that taught you to put no more than this or that amount of tension and why.

When using this 34kgf limit, what gauge of spoke are you using? Or rather, what gauge of spoke are you using on your cromotor build?

 

[Offroader]

At the time I did a lot of research into spoke tension. Most of it came from dirt bike builds. I watched lots of youtube videos and just googled lots of forum posts.

To be honest, nobody really gave me any torque spec., I forget how I came with 30 inch lbs. I probably decided 48 was too high for the flange on the cromotor.

You would have to consider spoke size, 12 gauge I doubt you would want to use 30 inch lbs.

I used 9/10 gauge spokes which are pretty thick, I also used buchanans spokes which are really strong so could take the higher torque.

I realized I needed a spoke torque wrench because I had no reference to how tight a spoke should be or feel. It is really easy to under torque because 30 inch lbs feels like a really lot of tension, but isn't all that much for motorcycle rim and spokes.

I would say 10 gauge spokes, you should do at least 30 inch lbs
11 gauge spokes you should do at least 25 inch lbs

You could probably go higher to be honest for a stronger build.

Also don't forget to use a dial indicators when truing. one for truing both ways. I get mine trued less then .2 mm tolerance. When I rechecked tension after lots of rides it was still below .25 mm.

http://www.harborfreight.com/clamping-dial-indicator-93051.html

 

[Rix]

http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/inch-pounds-to-kilogram-force-centimeters-conversion.html Perhaps this is accurate? 34 kgf is where your limits reside for a motorcycle rim spoke build?

Dirt bikes use around 48 inch pounds.

I decided on 30 because I didnt want to break the thin steel on my cromotor. I bet 48 would work, but didnt want to chance it and dont think an ebike needs 48.

So you can experiment to be honest, but I would say at least 30, but maybe 25 could work.

If you dont know how to tension and dont have a torque wrench it is easy to not torque enough. You may think 15 inch lbs is high and torqued enough but it isnt, and wheel will come untrue. 30 lbs is really high, but still low for a real dirt bike.

Even tension is also important.

But it is all about high tension, before I knew how to tension properly my wheels were always coming untrue. It got to a point where I would check tension during my rides, and before each ride. Spokes just kept coming loose.

Then I tried loctit which didnt help.

Then I finally got a torque wrench, torqued peoperly and high and never had an issue again. Never a single loose spoke, when I used to get like 3 to 5 on some offroad rides. I went from having to check spoke tension every ride to never having to do it anymore.

Never used a spoke torque wrench. Between ebikes and motos, I have laced up probably a dozen rims over the years, but I have been tightening and truing MC wheels since the late 70s, I guess I developed a feel for how much tension I need to get the job done.

 

[FluxZoom]

At the time I did a lot of research into spoke tension. Most of it came from dirt bike builds. I watched lots of youtube videos and just googled lots of forum posts.

To be honest, nobody really gave me any torque spec., I forget how I came with 30 inch lbs. I probably decided 48 was too high for the flange on the cromotor.

You would have to consider spoke size, 12 gauge I doubt you would want to use 30 inch lbs.

I used 9/10 gauge spokes which are pretty thick, I also used buchanans spokes which are really strong so could take the higher torque.

I realized I needed a spoke torque wrench because I had no reference to how tight a spoke should be or feel. It is really easy to under torque because 30 inch lbs feels like a really lot of tension, but isn't all that much for motorcycle rim and spokes.

I would say 10 gauge spokes, you should do at least 30 inch lbs
11 gauge spokes you should do at least 25 inch lbs

You could probably go higher to be honest for a stronger build.

Also don't forget to use a dial indicators when truing. one for truing both ways. I get mine trued less then .2 mm tolerance. When I rechecked tension after lots of rides it was still below .25 mm.

http://www.harborfreight.com/clamping-dial-indicator-93051.html

Hmm, interesting. A lot of what I've read places the minimum recommended spoke tension level at around 80kgf. However, I've read and been told (by manufacturers) their spoke tension limit for a bicycle rim is around 120kgf and that is very typically what is used. I might assume that someone who was going to build a cromotor using a very strong bicycle rim might use around 120kgf and that figure might be considerably higher if they were to build using a motorcycle rim.

To give this train of thought a bit more of a sense of solidarity behind this idea we can look to the park tool tensiometer. https://www.google.com/search?q=park+tool+tensiometer&biw=1920&bih=856&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwrMzLrOLLAhVFHB4KHZ0zDQUQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=myb9wGWYm4-Z8M%3A

The thickest the chart goes up to is for 12 gauge spokes (2.6mm), but the spoke readings don't begin until over 50kgf, around this limit for dirt bikes and well beyond the 34kgf seemingly others use for motorcycle rims. I can't say what a good cutoff is for spoke tension on a motorcycle rim, this is actually the question I am hoping to find the answer to. But, even 50kgf sounds really low under the contrast that a bicycle rim often uses 120kgf+.

 

[Offroader]

FluxZoom, 30 inch lbs with a spoke torque wrench on the nipple would be much higher than those values on the park tool chart.

Those are measuring tension and deflection on the spoke itself.

You can't compare their Kgf with what you would use with a spoke wrench.

Maybe I'm understanding you wrong?

 

[ridethelightning]

i really like the idea of using a torque wrench. where did you get yours from O.R.?

the ones i see on ebay are not cheap...

 

[FluxZoom]

FluxZoom, 30 inch lbs with a spoke torque wrench on the nipple would be much higher than those values on the park tool chart.

Those are measuring tension and deflection on the spoke itself.

You can't compare their Kgf with what you would use with a spoke wrench.

To filter out a long and pointless debate on the accuracy of tools and various methodology for verification of said tools lets just pretend two wheels were built with a legendarily accurate torque wrench, the bicycle rim manufacturer still calls for a limit of around 120kgf, I doubt they are thinking that those who put tension on their rim are actually using a blindingly inaccurate method for measuring tension and assume people are actually putting 60kgf (which would still be considered an incredibly high amount of tension) on the spokes attached to their rim. Again, I don't really know diddly squat about most of this, especially concerning motorcycle rims, but 34kgf sounds like an extremely low amount of tension in comparison or in light of a bicycle rim spoke tension limit. I am not saying you are wrong, you could be totally right for all I know, but I imagine that you could probably put wildly more tension on a motorcycle rim than you could a bicycle rim.

I am going to buy a nipple torque wrench and a tensiometer to compare because someone on the internet told me I can't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUD81N_TlS8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgsz7l1GWoI

 

[cwah]

I'm thinking to get this rim:
http://www.unicycle.uk.com/unicycle-parts/rims/20-nimbus-dominator2-rim-black.html

What tyre would be best for heavy duty load? I'm thinking up to 200kg on the rear tyre.

Thanks

Do you know if this one fit?
https://www.tyreleader.co.uk/motorbike-tyres/continental/contigo/2.25-16-38j-179592

Or if this one will fit better?
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=131723992786&alt=web

Anyone knows? Or if there is something better?

Thanks

 

[el Raptor]

Hi.
please, where i can buy rim 17 x 1.40 x 36 holes? ( into Europa)
I have Excel rim 17 x 1,40 x 32 holes, but now arrive to me a Cromotor and have 36 holes... big problem.
I can not find.
I am waiting arrive to me a frame raptor 140 with 165mm.
Vector team ofert to me a 18" x 1,60 x 36holes, is this ok?? or 1,60 it is very big?
(i prefer aluminum and black or blue color).
Thank you

 

[Rix]

Hi.
please, where i can buy rim 17 x 1.40 x 36 holes? ( into Europa)
I have Excel rim 17 x 1,40 x 32 holes, but now arrive to me a Cromotor and have 36 holes... big problem.
I can not find.
I am waiting arrive to me a frame raptor 140 with 165mm.
Vector team ofert to me a 18" x 1,60 x 36holes, is this ok?? or 1,60 it is very big?
(i prefer aluminum and black or blue color).
Thank you

The 18x1.6 rim will work, on a guess, it will probably weigh around 250-300 grams heavier than your 17x1.40 rim. It will work for you just fine, provided you are running more than 200watts to your motor.

 

[FluxZoom]

I am setting up for building hub motors using 12 gauge spokes for their 12 gauge spoke holes.

I contacted holmesbikes.com but they don't sell the rims needed for this type of application any longer.

Any input on where to buy 19" 36 hole motorcycle rims suitable for 12 gauge spokes? Maybe a place that sells over sized nipples that can hold 12 gauge spokes? Or maybe washers are in my future.

http://www.prowheelracing.com/yamaha-play-bike-front-rim-1-40-x-19-black/ I contacted this place asking about spoke hole diameter for this rim, 6.4mm, I've read typical 12 gauge nipple head diameters ranging from 7-7.5mm, maybe a bit too small for 6.4mm rim holes?

Sorry if I missed the answers to these questions.

 

[Rix]

I am setting up for building hub motors using 12 gauge spokes for their 12 gauge spoke holes.

I contacted holmesbikes.com but they don't sell the rims needed for this type of application any longer.

Any input on where to buy 19" 36 hole motorcycle rims suitable for 12 gauge spokes? Maybe a place that sells over sized nipples that can hold 12 gauge spokes? Or maybe washers are in my future.

http://www.prowheelracing.com/yamaha-play-bike-front-rim-1-40-x-19-black/ I contacted this place asking about spoke hole diameter for this rim, 6.4mm, I've read typical 12 gauge nipple head diameters ranging from 7-7.5mm, maybe a bit too small for 6.4mm rim holes?

Sorry if I missed the answers to these questions.

A couple of guys back in the beginning of this thread were using M5 washers convex pressed. But really to do it right you need to get the over sized spoke nipples Holmes carries for this application.

 

[FluxZoom]

I am setting up for building hub motors using 12 gauge spokes for their 12 gauge spoke holes.

I contacted holmesbikes.com but they don't sell the rims needed for this type of application any longer.

Any input on where to buy 19" 36 hole motorcycle rims suitable for 12 gauge spokes? Maybe a place that sells over sized nipples that can hold 12 gauge spokes? Or maybe washers are in my future.

http://www.prowheelracing.com/yamaha-play-bike-front-rim-1-40-x-19-black/ I contacted this place asking about spoke hole diameter for this rim, 6.4mm, I've read typical 12 gauge nipple head diameters ranging from 7-7.5mm, maybe a bit too small for 6.4mm rim holes?

Sorry if I missed the answers to these questions.

A couple of guys back in the beginning of this thread were using M5 washers convex pressed. But really to do it right you need to get the over sized spoke nipples Holmes carries for this application.

Thanks so much for the reply.

I asked about their 12 gauge nipples, they don't have those any longer either.

 

[Rix]

Just checked myself, you are correct, nothing but 108 and 128mm long spokes left. Wonder if JRH is getting out of the Ebike wheel business?

 

[FluxZoom]

http://www.prowheelracing.com/yamaha-play-bike-front-rim-1-40-x-19-black/ 1088g~
http://www.alexrims.com/product.asp?sc=0&cat=25 755g
http://www.unicycle.com/unicycle-hardware/rims-and-wheels/nimbus-26-inch-muni-rim.html 796g
This illustrates how similar in weight these rims are, one is a motorcycle type rim compared to a unicycle and bicycle rim. I imagine that they are all very similar in strength as the motorcycle rim is a single wall design, but this is a bit of a blind guess. Anyway, there are a crushing number of rims out there, most I couldn't consider because they are too narrow in inner width, I am sure many who ride electric bicycles use 2-3 inch wide tires, I wouldn't consider using under 2" personally. holmesbikes.com no longer sells the stuff for moped rims and such, I haven't any clue where else to get that, but I am not really sure if there is much advantage to a moped/motorcycle single walled rim to a large degree.

This question doesn't necessarily related to weight, but more about strength to weight ratio.

Would there be bicycle rims that might match or exceed the strength of a moped/motorcycle rim?

 

[Offroader]

http://www.prowheelracing.com/yamaha-play-bike-front-rim-1-40-x-19-black/ 1088g~
http://www.alexrims.com/product.asp?sc=0&cat=25 755g
http://www.unicycle.com/unicycle-hardware/rims-and-wheels/nimbus-26-inch-muni-rim.html 796g
This illustrates how similar in weight these rims are, one is a motorcycle type rim compared to a unicycle and bicycle rim. I imagine that they are all very similar in strength as the motorcycle rim is a single wall design, but this is a bit of a blind guess. Anyway, there are a crushing number of rims out there, most I couldn't consider because they are too narrow in inner width, I am sure many who ride electric bicycles use 2-3 inch wide tires, I wouldn't consider using under 2" personally. holmesbikes.com no longer sells the stuff for moped rims and such, I haven't any clue where else to get that, but I am not really sure if there is much advantage to a moped/motorcycle single walled rim to a large degree.

This question doesn't necessarily related to weight, but more about strength to weight ratio.

Would there be bicycle rims that might match or exceed the strength of a moped/motorcycle rim?

You have to take into account the rim size also, the motorcycle rims are smaller in diameter. I know the 19" vs 17" sizes make a noticeable difference in weight. a 26" bicycle rim is larger than a 19" motorcycle rim.

The problem is more that you can't get good tires for the bicycle rims. Bicycle tires just don't work in the rear of an electric bike.

If you need spokes for moped rims then order 10 gauge with brass nipples them from Buchanan spokes, these are USA made quality.

 

[FluxZoom]

Thanks for reading my question and replying to it.

You have to take into account the rim size also, the motorcycle rims are smaller in diameter. I know the 19" vs 17" sizes make a noticeable difference in weight. a 26" bicycle rim is larger than a 19" motorcycle rim.

Your statement doesn't really relate to strength, just saying that the diameters are different, which I appreciate, doesn't necessarily mean either rim is stronger or weaker. Diameter doesn't necessarily automatically mean something should be heavier or lighter either. I am sure there are 16" rims that are heavier than 19" rims and so on.

The problem is more that you can't get good tires for the bicycle rims. Bicycle tires just don't work in the rear of an electric bike.

Just don't work? Hyperbole. I am not sure what you are trying to say by this, I am sure most electric bicycles use bicycle tires and they work. I know bicycle tires work fine in the rear of an electric bicycle, at least any I have ridden, as I have ridden electric bicycles with bicycle wheels in the rear with a hub motor, I did so last night with a schwalbe energizer as I have for 100s of miles. Perhaps you mean electric motorcycle going 60-100+mph or going pretty fast while doing crazy drops, I travel 30mph tops on primarily streets, which is probably around what you might expect for an electric bicycle, maybe slower. But I am hoping not to get into some sort of debate about toughness on tires, just strength of rims. Not that I could debate strength of rims. It's rim longevity and reliability that I am really after. I'd probably use a bicycle tire on a motorcycle rim.

If you need spokes for moped rims then order 10 gauge with brass nipples them from Buchanan spokes, these are USA made quality.

I am fairly certain I'd need to drill out any hub motor I've encountered, which use 12 or 13 gauge spoke holes. This is something I am not entirely eager to do and a unsure if it's a good idea at all to remove that much material from the spoke holes on the hub. I imagine that perhaps you are using something like a cromotor, but I use 1000w rated direct drive hub motors.

Anyway, I guess the original question I am asking is, can a double walled bicycle rim be as strong or stronger than a single walled motorcycle rim, such as the rims I linked to. I honestly wonder how one might test strength of a rim. I almost made another thread for this subject, but this question probably belongs in this thread.

 

[Chalo]

Anyway, I guess the original question I am asking is, can a double walled bicycle rim be as strong or stronger than a single walled motorcycle rim, such as the rims I linked to.

On a strength to weight ratio basis, all halfway decent bicycle rims are stronger than motorcycle rims. The thing about motorcycle rims that you can see as an advantage or a disadvantage is that they weigh several times as much as bicycle rims.

A good strong bicycle rim like Origin8 DAT-PRO-65 or Alex Supra-E compares in strength to a motorcycle rim weighing maybe three times more.

Motorcycle tires are tougher than bicycle tires just on the basis of mass. Compared to bicycle tires that can have casing fabrics finer than 100tpi, rated pressures over 100 psi, and excellent strength to weight ratio, there are no "good" motorcycle tires. In every way you could say a motorcycle tire is better than a bicycle tire, a truck tire is better than a motorcycle tire. That doesn't mean you should use truck tires on your e-bike.

 

[Powervelocity.com]

What about safety and speed ratings? Will a bicycle tires blown at 40+mph be more disastrous for the rider than on a motorcycle tire? What about stability at higher speeds? I like the light weight of a bicycle wheel but they just don't feel safe at speeds above 20-30 mph (well, and they are not designed to run at those speeds). Yes, bicycle rims can be built strong but availability of good tires rated for above 20mph is limited.

On a strength to weight ratio basis, all halfway decent bicycle rims are stronger than motorcycle rims. The thing about motorcycle rims that you can see as an advantage or a disadvantage is that they weigh several times as much as bicycle rims.

A good strong bicycle rim like Origin8 DAT-PRO-65 or Alex Supra-E compares in strength to a motorcycle rim weighing maybe three times more.

Motorcycle tires are tougher than bicycle tires just on the basis of mass. Compared to bicycle tires that can have casing fabrics finer than 100tpi, rated pressures over 100 psi, and excellent strength to weight ratio, there are no "good" motorcycle tires. In every way you could say a motorcycle tire is better than a bicycle tire, a truck tire is better than a motorcycle tire. That doesn't mean you should use truck tires on your e-bike.

 

[markz]

I'm thinking about trying out a 16" prowheel rim for a 16x3.00 tire for a MXUS build.

I've been using a 17x3.00 shinko 241 and that has worked out really nice. Why not try a 16x3.00?

It will reduce the tire outside diameter 1 inch, from 23.7" to 22.68".

Does anyone think a 22.68" outside diameter will be way too small? I am concerned if it will not roll over stuff as well in the woods.

Offroader - Did you end up going with 16" wheel? I found a 16 x 1.60 online with a tire for a reasonable price. Its funny because I can not find any used motorcycle parts stores or junkyards in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. TJ's was popular but its gone now. Found Mikes Bikes out NE of the airport with tons of selection. I went there to look but he mentioned something about the price, he wanted a couple hundred bucks for a "set" of wheels. So if I remember it came down to $100 to $150 per wheel. They were all on a rack outside, in random order. To me it seemed a high price, but looking on the online classifieds Kijiji that seems to be the going rate.

My concern is with a 16 x 1.60 rim, is will I have a good selection of reasonably priced tires. The good news is, the wheel I got my eye on has a tire on it but with a bunch of spokes gone off it and for $50, but in what condition is the tire I dont know until I head out for a day trip 1 hour east to look at it. I wanted a 17", so a 16" will give me a little bit more torque. My motor is the same, MXUS 3KW V2.

 

[markz]

I think the only reason people go with motorcycle rims, is b/c they got the angled spoke hole, so in turn they can have a large hub motor and small rim.

I believe too, and correct me if I am wrong, but wouldnt most decent bicycle tires be more expensive in price then moto tires?
Another point being, wouldnt moto tires be indestructable then a bicycle tire.

Whats the weight dis-advantage? Is a few pounds or is it more? A few lbs for me on the MXUS 3KW V2 motor is nothing. I will lose that in weight popping 100mg caffeine pills, eating healthy and checking out the ladies at the gym.

Anyway, I guess the original question I am asking is, can a double walled bicycle rim be as strong or stronger than a single walled motorcycle rim, such as the rims I linked to.

On a strength to weight ratio basis, all halfway decent bicycle rims are stronger than motorcycle rims. The thing about motorcycle rims that you can see as an advantage or a disadvantage is that they weigh several times as much as bicycle rims.

A good strong bicycle rim like Origin8 DAT-PRO-65 or Alex Supra-E compares in strength to a motorcycle rim weighing maybe three times more.

Motorcycle tires are tougher than bicycle tires just on the basis of mass. Compared to bicycle tires that can have casing fabrics finer than 100tpi, rated pressures over 100 psi, and excellent strength to weight ratio, there are no "good" motorcycle tires. In every way you could say a motorcycle tire is better than a bicycle tire, a truck tire is better than a motorcycle tire. That doesn't mean you should use truck tires on your e-bike.