2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

[John in CR]

Thanks S/M. I have already soldered half the shunt and may go after it with some copper wire wrap, a la John in CR. The solder doesn't seem to have done much as the build in wattmeter in the LCD-3 shows about the same readings as before I soldered the shunt. More is better, maybe. If it can kick the shift point up a bit in low gear it will serve it's purpose.
otherDoc

That's much too much. Don't add any more or any copper wire. adding solder to about 1/4 of the length increases the current up to 20A, which is about as far as is safe for the controller and motor. You could be as high as 24A. If you have a wattmeter, you should use it to find out what you've got, and then adjust accordingly.

I've soldered the shunt on at least 30 controllers and never had a problem. Many of them already had some solder added by the factory. I'm not convinced that what Jeremy Harris said was correct, neither do I see a necessity to wrap wire around the shunt. The method of just adding a bit of solder up the leg is simple, effective and quick. I personally don't see any reason to make it more complicated.

Solder is relatively high resistance and is a very inaccurate and unpredictable method of modifying the shunt. Spinning mags didn't list the complete mod, because it's quite simple and the primary benefits are that it's accurate and you don't have to worry on high power rigs that sold melts and runs killing the controller.

If you want to increase current from 15A to a 20A limit, then you simply reduce the shunt resistance by 25%. I would accomplish that by effectively reducing the shunt wires' length by 25%. Do this by wrapping 1/4 of the length with thin strand copper, and then soak it with solder. That makes that length of the shunt essentially 0 resistance.

If you have any old blown controllers, you can also rob a shunt wire from one of those and add it to the mix on the new board. That can often be the easiest when you're tight on room (shunt not near the edge of the board), by installing that added shunt wire on the bottom of the board. Just be careful that it doesn't stick down too far and short with the casing.

John

 

[cjh]

The Xiongda motors have very high torque when you run them at 36v 20A or 48v. There's no point in using them for 2WD, which I can imagine would be quite unpleasant to ride. If you want 2WD, use normal geared motors. I recommend that you get one first, try it out, and then see if you think you need 2WD.

Thanks for the input, I see you have built some 2wd bikes. I am interested to know why you think it would be unpleasant to use the XD motors for this purpose. I am completely new when it comes to ebikes. I do have experience in 4wd driving and building vehicles for crawling slowly over more extreme terrain where we change the gearing in low range to even lower ratios to really allow us to crawl at slow speed for more control, a little like a trials bike I suppose?. I thought that using two XD's on a fat bike might give that same sort of outcome. i.e. more torque and traction at a slower speed but still having a reasonable performance for normal bike riding duties. If not the XD's then what would you suggest? 2x Q100H?

 

[cjh]

2wd on a fat tire bike would be a really a fun setup for sand and dirt. Should climb quite well. With such large tires if you operate at very low speed the extra gearing could be very important to keep motor heating down.

Fat tires really eat the power, a small battery won't get far at all.

Fun was my thoughts too

Yes, the battery requirements may well need to be revisted.

 

[d8veh]

Solder is relatively high resistance and is a very inaccurate and unpredictable method of modifying the shunt.

Maybe it is, but it's very quick and easy to do. You can use a wattmeter or voltmeter to check your results. When I add/remove solder, I can normally easily get within 0.5A. I've never seen any sign of the solder melting back off: we're talking about changing the current from 15A to 20A!

How to measure your current using a normal multimeter that has a millivolt scale:

Stick your voltmeter probes as far apart as you can in one of the battery wires. Lift the motor wheel off the ground and throttle up to full power. Apply the brake (brake switch disconnected if you have one) to slow the wheel right down. Make a note of the millivolts on the meter. Solder the shunt; repeat the test; note the new millivolt reading. The millivolts increase in proportion to the current. As an example, to go from 15A to 20A = 33% increase. First reading say 12mv. Second reading needs to be 12 x 1.33 = 16mv. If you have less than 16mv, add a bit of solder. If above 16mv, wipe a bit off with the soldering iron.

I always use Deans connectors, so I use a ready-made wire loop that I clip in between the controller and battery, which saves a lot of messing about.

 

[panurge]

Hu, I agree with the fact that it is better to use normal motors for a 2wd, just the fact that you save 2.5 kg in motors is enough.....but what about a bike with 2 XD one of which would turn in high at the same RPM the other would do in low?
Could be something to try: climbs and starts with the slower, a robust double motor power say from 15 to near 35Kph and an overdrive for cruise and speed if it can withstand that speed. A fast bike like mine was could be 21kg with a double XD setup and a doubled pack (10s 10Ah), just the right platform to try that insane setup......

Actually got a new batch of XDs, among them a new 137mm , a 20 inch for a foldable and the slower front motor avalilable....I would try it on a 36er cruiser with 3speed IGH rear dunno if anyone has attempted that before...wouldn't be easy to find a motor suited for that purpose especially among the small geared ones...a very high code SWX perhaps. but a 28" wounded XD in low should do the job, I guess, and if it will sustain just some short cruising flat or downhill high speed sections...that would be a lot of fun.

Would say That even if this application seems nothing more than a funny-stupid project, exactly like the 20" FAT ( actually 1200kms made with it ) both are otherwise very useful test platforms to check the limits of these motors.

Picture of the donor 36er soon....

 

[docnjoj]

Well sorry to have to report a failure but my 2 speed suddenly developed a loud clacking noise in high gear. One minute it was silent then "clack clack clack.....etc). It only does this in high gear, still normal in low.It also only does it with power on, no noise at all with the freewheel and no power coasting. I can't take it apart just yet as I have a lot of work to do this week. but I should find time to put the old 9C back on after removing the XongDa first. Anyone got a guess what is loose? It still performs fine, but is really too loud to use now.
otherDoc

 

[menvert]

Well sorry to have to report a failure but my 2 speed suddenly developed a loud clacking noise in high gear. One minute it was silent then "clack clack clack.....etc). It only does this in high gear, still normal in low.It also only does it with power on, no noise at all with the freewheel and no power coasting. I can't take it apart just yet as I have a lot of work to do this week. but I should find time to put the old 9C back on after removing the XongDa first. Anyone got a guess what is loose? It still performs fine, but is really too loud to use now.
otherDoc

That's a shame, do you know how many total k's/miles? Would this be the older revision before they apparently strengthened some components (a while back orders were delayed with that as a reason)? and running @ 20 amps?
I'd hazard a guess that one of the clutch contacts has worn out/broken, as it uses separate clutch contacts in each direction, but only when under power so would match that description, and it is the weakest part of the design, but who really knows, till you pull it apart...

 

[docnjoj]

Well sorry to have to report a failure but my 2 speed suddenly developed a loud clacking noise in high gear. One minute it was silent then "clack clack clack.....etc). It only does this in high gear, still normal in low.It also only does it with power on, no noise at all with the freewheel and no power coasting. I can't take it apart just yet as I have a lot of work to do this week. but I should find time to put the old 9C back on after removing the XongDa first. Anyone got a guess what is loose? It still performs fine, but is really too loud to use now.
otherDoc

That's a shame, do you know how many total k's/miles? Would this be the older revision before they apparently strengthened some components (a while back orders were delayed with that as a reason)? and running @ 20 amps?
I'd hazard a guess that one of the clutch contacts has worn out/broken, as it uses separate clutch contacts in each direction, but only when under power so would match that description, and it is the weakest part of the design, but who really knows, till you pull it apart...

I believe it is the newer design because I had to wait quite a while for it to be delvered. Sometime during the week I will take the motor off the bike and open it. It might have 500 miles on it, possibly less. We ride 3-4 times a week, around 20 miles per ride on a smooth bike path. It is too bad, since it is a great little motor.
otherDoc

 

[cjh]

Has anyone got the dimensioned drawing for the 170mm motor? I am having problems with viewing the ones they are sending me. I have possibly found an alloy frame fat bike to buy with a 170mm dropout, 8spd and disc and I would like to see what I might be up against trying to fit it.

From Xiongda
"We can supply rear version with 170mm fork width. (rear v brake&7s or rear disk brake &7s ,here disk brake is with thread not 6 holes)"

Sounds like I need an adapter for the disc?

 

[crossbreak]

just for technical reference:

honda did built a hub that freewheels in both directions, but engages under power. Guess this is the same principle that lets the 2-speed motor hub be able to be turned in backwards direction without getting destroyed. Honda made this hub for their gboxx style bicycle gearbox. Here is a drawing of the hub, sadly quality isn't best. http://s37.photobucket.com/user/troyoo/media/pbpic1872126.jpg.html

 

[panurge]

Hey Cjh
I have that motor. it has standard RH threads both side since it is made for drum brakes, XD offers that motor with 3 big washers and a 1.37x24tpi to 6 bolt adapters, for Disc brake applications. There is a better and wider adaptor made By DT.
The width as is in stock is just 166 and there's room for 7speed
With the 20" I use the stock 7speed cluster and I just used a small spacer and pressed the whole thing against the left dropout, With an aluminum frame maybe You can't do that but you may add spacers and go with 9-10 speed or simply add spacers and stay with your stock 8speed, just check all that before to build the wheel, anyway the wheel result quite centered.

Anyway, I got a wrong motor in the last Batch, that's a FAT motor with 24" windings and it should have been another 137mm for 5 speed instead....just exactly the one I HAD ....XD will send me another one no cost, because was clearly their fault, at XD, they are really cool folks.....
But I have A picture made at his arrival to show, so you may better figure out what you could get.
It's a complete kit with KT sine and LCD-3 combo. (Pm me if someone in Europe is interested in that for a superfast 26"FAT or a fast 24"FAT)

 

[cjh]

Thanks for the pic and information, it looks like it should be fine then. What sort of winding do you think I should be looking at for a 26" Fat Bike (approx. 29" O.D.)?

EDIT: Also, do I order the wide drum brake version with the disc brake adapter just in case I can't get the DT adapter?

 

[panurge]

hello
I used a 24" motor on a 700c wheel no problem and still climbs cool while in high was over 40kph, but the bike was really a fast one, I was able to push it without assist at 35-40 countinuously, and weights only about 15kg.
I'm 70kg for 85kg total, with 5Ah at 10s I was able to do from 15 to 30km depends on the use, of course with that bike I sould have been able to make even 100+Km of trip with the small 185Wh pack used only at demand.
I think a good experimental approach with this XD 2 speed is to look at the cruising speed you're able to sustain unassisted with your Bike, and than choose a motor that tops out, no load close or a little over that, in high speed.

I have a pair of new question to report.

The Lishui old sine controller KM combo is still my preferred one. I'm now quite sure that the Lishui controller autoshift faster than the KT and that the backroll issues are different from the one reported with the old non-sine KT controller. With the Lishui, 95% of the time I have any backroll issue, and it mostly a ratcheting crackling sound if the backward action is fast. I had maybe 2 times only a total block of the motor, that is otherwise a routine when you stop in high speed with the KT controller. With the Lishui controller the motor does that single Clack at throttle release and slow speed that seems to disengage the clutch while the wheel is still rolling and than allowing the backroll.

I know from XD they are thinking about a different way to control the shifter, that could be to integrate the standard assist level buttons within the shifter buttons in a single handlebar switch device, or to integrate shift control into the display itself. That's to clean up a bit wirings and/or give a better look to the hadlebar switch the actually looks not so OEM.
Pas level buttons built into the display, as in the KM5S device, with the H-A-L switch still on the handlebar, is actually the cleaner setup, though.
I think they would look with interest at this thread if our thoughts and preferences on this argument where discussed.

 

[menvert]

I am tempted to order a Lishui controller as the KT is very disappointing at shifting (2.5 seconds to shift and get back to speed), the only issue is that they only have a 36v version of it, as I also want to up my voltage 1 or 2 cells... the 36v KT got almost too hot to touch when I ran for 15 minutes at 44v unloaded/41v loaded, though I now mounted it under my rack so it has airflow instead of in a box probably won't be an issue now...

Some more compact controls would be awesome, but really it's insignificant IMO unless they put some effort into making the shift faster and the auto shift point better or programmable, even at low PAS levels auto consistently fails for me... hmm, does the Lishui shift by K's or amps too? The big issue for me is KT shifts by amps which is just pointless, because amps always wins over K's meaning it will shift down when it's already going faster than low gears max speed... and even when taking off it shifts up to high at about 12kmh then after about a second or two shifts down where it does nothing, because I am now doing over 18kmh max in low.
If they insist on amps based shifting it needs to have logic of - 'if I am already going over 50% of max RPM Prevent shift down' (because that's over 100% of low gear rpm) currently I simply cannot use Auto-shift...
Still I assume some or all? of my auto-shift issues can be attributed to not having the standard 230 RPM winding but having the 280 unloaded RPM winding, which on 700c is 35kph holding wheel off ground (I think that equates to 22-24" winding)

I have never had back roll issues myself, this motor freewheels and rolls back really well for me, that's probably more about me not having any scenario where it'd occur. I do get the clack when I let go of accelerator in low on the KT though.

Overall I am really happy with the Motor though, 700k on the clock now

 

[eMax]

Has anyone got the dimensioned drawing for the 170mm motor? I am having problems with viewing the ones they are sending me. I have possibly found an alloy frame fat bike to buy with a 170mm dropout, 8spd and disc and I would like to see what I might be up against trying to fit it.

From Xiongda
"We can supply rear version with 170mm fork width. (rear v brake&7s or rear disk brake &7s ,here disk brake is with thread not 6 holes)"

Sounds like I need an adapter for the disc?

Is it a DWG drawing? If so you can view with an application like this http://www.autodesk.com/products/dwg/viewers
If you are still having problems PM me.

 

[cjh]

Is it a DWG drawing? If so you can view with an application like this http://www.autodesk.com/products/dwg/viewers
If you are still having problems PM me.

Thanks for the offer. I had actually tried Autodesk and a couple of others I had, but for some reason I couldn't view it, but I finally did it through an online viewer. I have converted it to a PDF.

 

[lowspark]

The people in this forum are so knowledgable - it is quite an education to read through this forum. Yet I still feel that I don't know enough to make a good decision in specing the right Xiongda two speed hub motor, controller and battery. Could someone here perhaps kindly point me in the right direction?

I have a nice steel frame that I want to build into an e-bike. I am not looking for fast speed or extremely long range but I want to have help getting up Seattle hills. Really, what I am after is a nice riding bicycle that happens to have electric power for hills. I weigh about 200 lbs and the bike with Xiongda hub and no battery will be about 30 lbs.

I hope to set up a single speed bike and use the motor in low to climb steeper hills at about 12 mph with my cadence at 60. I would climb more gentle hills with the motor in high and my cadence at 80. On the flats I would ride unassisted at about 18 mph with my cadence at 90, which is a sustainable cadence for me on other bikes, but I am comfortable anywhere from 60 to 90. Downhill, I like to glide.

I don't have a desire to ride faster than 18 mph. I am willing to sacrifice some range to carry a lighter, smaller battery. Ideally, I would use a bottle mount battery because I really want to put that weight low and centered on the bike and I prefer it aesthetically. I've seen bottle batteries that weigh about 6 lbs, so I am thinking that I should end up in the 35 to 40 pound range for the total package. Does this sound reasonable? Should I go with 36 V or 48 V or ?

Thanks to all who may have thoughts or comments!

 

[menvert]

The people in this forum are so knowledgable - it is quite an education to read through this forum. Yet I still feel that I don't know enough to make a good decision in specing the right Xiongda two speed hub motor, controller and battery. Could someone here perhaps kindly point me in the right direction?

I have a nice steel frame that I want to build into an e-bike. I am not looking for fast speed or extremely long range but I want to have help getting up Seattle hills. Really, what I am after is a nice riding bicycle that happens to have electric power for hills. I weigh about 200 lbs and the bike with Xiongda hub and no battery will be about 30 lbs.

I hope to set up a single speed bike and use the motor in low to climb steeper hills at about 12 mph with my cadence at 60. I would climb more gentle hills with the motor in high and my cadence at 80. On the flats I would ride unassisted at about 18 mph with my cadence at 90, which is a sustainable cadence for me on other bikes, but I am comfortable anywhere from 60 to 90. Downhill, I like to glide.

I don't have a desire to ride faster than 18 mph. I am willing to sacrifice some range to carry a lighter, smaller battery. Ideally, I would use a bottle mount battery because I really want to put that weight low and centered on the bike and I prefer it aesthetically. I've seen bottle batteries that weigh about 6 lbs, so I am thinking that I should end up in the 35 to 40 pound range for the total package. Does this sound reasonable? Should I go with 36 V or 48 V or ?

Thanks to all who may have thoughts or comments!

What range do you want from it, that may determine if you got 48 or 36?
For the 36v the standard max speed is about 8/15.5mph. I think for 48v it'll be a good bit faster (something like 11/22mph), so I am thinking you'd want 48v unless you want to go with windings for a smaller wheel. For my 36v 700c on 22" windings max speed in low is 9.3mph high 18mph, keep in mind I am about 124lb and this is full throttle not pedaling much, but you pedal a lot more than me, which can add about 15% before the motor stops assisting

I think eMax's build is closest to what you want, which looks to be not as fast as you want in low still. - http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=58490&start=350#p944365
With a steel frame though you'll have no mounting worries, as long as you can get the correct freewheel and the motor for single speed (I don't think a single speed would mount on my verion without a big gap)

 

[lowspark]

Thanks for your response Menvert.

As for range, I'd like to get at least 10 miles, but the more the better. I'm pretty committed to the idea of a bottle mount battery though and I know that will limit me.

What kind of range do you think that I would get with a 36V set up? For some reason I thought the high / low speed ratio was about 1.33:1 but it seems that it is more like 2:1. I could get by with 8 mph/5.5 mph on a 36V if it was a good climber. Would it climb steeper hills than a 48V going 11 mph / 22 mph? Any idea of the range on 48V? Thanks for your help.

 

[menvert]

Thanks for your response Menvert.

As for range, I'd like to get at least 10 miles, but the more the better. I'm pretty committed to the idea of a bottle mount battery though and I know that will limit me.

What kind of range do you think that I would get with a 36V set up? For some reason I thought the high / low speed ratio was about 1.33:1 but it seems that it is more like 2:1. I could get by with 8 mph/5.5 mph on a 36V if it was a good climber. Would it climb steeper hills than a 48V going 11 mph / 22 mph? Any idea of the range on 48V? Thanks for your help.

If memory serves - the ratios are approximately 1:4 and 1:8 which is close enough to being double (they say torque at climbing is 1.82 times of torque at cruising on the Alibaba site)
For hills from what I have read the 48v should climb better than the 36v.
On mine though; In low there is not a hill I have found that it can't climb, even if that means going at 3mph. (and mine is wound for speed at the cost of hill climbing)
With a 10Ah 36v battery you should get at least 20 miles, worst case scenario based on my FOT commute which has a variety of hills and flat. In PAS mode & pedaling as much as you do you should get a lot more.

So maybe look into what batteries you can get, if you can get a 48v 8Ah I think that's be better than a 10Ah 36v for the sort of faster climbing that you want, but make sure it can draw 15Amps, the smaller bottle batteries tend to be low amps. The bigger square bottle batteries tend to be fine regarding Amps. You can get quite large square bottle batteries, 11/14.5 Ah 48/36v available commonly

 

[lowspark]

Thanks for the info menvert.

Yes, it seems that 48V may be best for me with my heavier weight and desire for better climbing ability. I am starting to get a better handle on what to expect with range. Is there a downside to going with 48V vs 36V?

It appears that the em3ev batteries are pretty well regarded aren't they? This one looks quite good but heavier and more costly than what i was originally thinking but with better range - nothing wrong with that - just not quite a stealthy as the cylindrical batteries:

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=161

I'll keep digging and see if I can find a respected cylindrical battery that may save a couple of pounds. Sorry for the newbie question, but where do you mount the controller? Thanks!

 

[d8veh]

For the 36v the standard max speed is about 8/15.5mph. I think for 48v it'll be a good bit faster (something like 11/22mph), so I am thinking you'd want 48v unless you want to go with windings for a smaller wheel. For my 36v 700c on 22" windings max

AFAIK all the 36v ones do 11/20 mph. Do you have a lower speed one?

For someone that can pedal with a cadence of 90, the 36v one should have plenty of power to get you up steep hills. I'm pretty heavy at 220lbs, and my 36v one has taken me up hills a steep as 31%. I increased the current from 15A to 20A by soldering the shunt in the controller to give a bit more climbing power, so mine would be similar to a 48v one. There are cylindrical bottle batteries that can give 20A, but I only know where to get them in UK. If you search Aliexpress for 11.6ah ones, you can find them. This one looks OK.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-lot-36V-13AH-Bottle-Electric-Bicycle-Battery-with-slim-Aluminium-Case-BMS-and-Charger-for/1957858288.html

Even at the standard 15A, the torque is sufficient for hills of 20%, which is pretty steep, and as much as most people encounter (1 in 5). For normal riding, you'd get at least 25 miles from a cylindrical bottle battery. There are 48v ones, but they're too long for most bike frames.

 

[menvert]

AFAIK all the 36v ones do 11/20 mph. Do you have a lower speed one?

d8veh, I don't think I have a slower one, but it's hard to know what stock is, I thought mine @280rpm should be 20% faster than stock, I did expect it to do 20mph easily, and hold speed better, but it just doesn't, maybe it's the different controller? sine wave/KT seems to lack top end performance - slight hills/wind cut off a lot more speed than my last basic single speed. I really wish I'd gone 48v(I'll be adding some battery soon to see how an extra 1 or 2 cells go, and the maybe then get a 12s Lipo)

To clarify my comments re: my 700c @280rpm windings; wheel off the ground mine does about 11.8/21.8mph
To get 11/20 on flat I have to pedal reasonably hard to get that in high, which I don't do
I ride FOT, minimal pedaling where I get 9.3 low as the loaded max, unless it's a gentle hill (but I'd switch to high in that case) 18-19 high on flat depending if slight up or down hill.

8/15.5mph is an estimate based on their normal model being sold as max 25kmh(15.5mph) @230rpm
bit of an assumption there as mine isn't standard and I am not sure how many here actually have a stock standard XD in the wheel size and winding, volts and Amps it was made for? made it hard for me to know what to expect too.

 

[eMax]

I would go with the 48v (thanks for linking my ride menvert).
I get about 35km/h top speed with a 26inch wheel. The torque upto here is really nice.

Just be careful with frame selection some frames wont play nice if you stretch too much

 

[cjh]

This was some info I was sent. Europe and Australia max legal speed is 25km/h (15.5mph).


"We also can do the max RPM according to your needs. Usually the max speed cannot be over 35km/h (21.8mph)"

for Europe 700C(29") wheel the max RPM :around 215RPM
for America 700C the max RPM :around 270RPM

for Europe 26'' the max RPM :around 225RPM
for America 26'' the max RPM :around 280RPM

Edited to add:
"Usually the max RPM for 24'' is around 245RPM. for 20'' rim is around 290RPM.
By the way the max RPM can be done according to your own needs."