2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

[docnjoj]

Sorry I haven't gotten to open the motor, but it is the "silly season" with grandchildren all over the house. I do have the 9C back on and it is really quiet with the sine wave controller. It would not work with the KT controller from the 2 speed, so I put back my old S12S controller. I do miss the lightness of the 2 speed as the rear suspension worked better than with the 9C. It is just too heavy for a smooth ride on bumps. I'll get to it eventually.
otherDoc

 

[cjh]

I have now 6 of these motors running or ready to be laced to extend the test on them. there are 20" 24" 26" and 28" @36v and one 48v controller, all comes with KT sine and LCD3 but I have also a lishui+KM5S, so hopefully I'll say something more about windings, finally.
Is there any easy way I can test them on the bench do determine the speed, other than the built in speedo?
I would try no load amps and speedo first and than work back from the real world speed, when laced, but I'm open to tips and suggestions.
a pair of these motors goes to 10000+km per year guys.
I'll check the grease soon and report if any difference, the axle sure looks different (hardened, better steel)
We have actually a small fleet of XD here at ES, guys....Sadly we have oDoc's motor fail, we will see next months....

Hi Panurge, have you had a chance to do any testing? Also, is the Lishui+KM5S still your pick or is the latest KT+LCD3 better now?

 

[panurge]

I have now 6 of these motors running or ready to be laced to extend the test on them. there are 20" 24" 26" and 28" @36v and one 48v controller, all comes with KT sine and LCD3 but I have also a lishui+KM5S, so hopefully I'll say something more about windings, finally.
Is there any easy way I can test them on the bench do determine the speed, other than the built in speedo?
I would try no load amps and speedo first and than work back from the real world speed, when laced, but I'm open to tips and suggestions.
a pair of these motors goes to 10000+km per year guys.
I'll check the grease soon and report if any difference, the axle sure looks different (hardened, better steel)
We have actually a small fleet of XD here at ES, guys....Sadly we have oDoc's motor fail, we will see next months....

Hi Panurge, have you had a chance to do any testing? Also, is the Lishui+KM5S still your pick or is the latest KT+LCD3 better now?

A true bench test will be made soon with the 4 supposedly differently wound motors, (January, I guess) About Lishui, Yes My last KT controllers are still not close to the Lishui performances (in terms of logics) Lishui (old firmware) is very very stable, It shifts at a given speed and reversing takes always the same short amount of time (say half second), whatever slope and duty you're in.
I would only like to have full opened features on the King Meter device, Throttle independant from PAS, and 3 or 4 different firmawares (mostly about the speed limit for reverse gear, and PAS ramps) to play with without the need to ask always Lishui to send me another firmware to flash, so that I can easily flash each controller for the needs of the donor Bike and its rider.
Lishui also makes smart combos controllers with integrated LCD for Handlebars, and cylindric controller shapes that could be included inside frames or conveniently fixed to them.
I'm working for that :wink: .

 

[lowspark]

Well, my project has stalled.

You may recall that I was very intrigued with the ida of building a single speed bike with the XD motor in the rear hub. I figured out what I wanted in terms of gearing etc. but my problem is with budget. I wanted to build this up on a new frame set, which I knew would not be cheap, but in making the component selections I just could not compromise enough to get the price down where I wanted. I could buy a complete single speed bike, swap in the rear wheel with XD motor, change a chainring and get there but I was infatuated with a particular frame. After mulling it over and looking at options, I am thinking of going a different direction.

I have my eye on a couple of steel light-touring bikes from the 2014 model year that are on closeout at a great price that would work well. One is a double chainring, the other a triple and they would be pretty well suited to a BBS02 mid-drive conversion. I have ridden the double CR and like it a lot - very good fit and I can dial it in with a new stem. I hope to test ride the other bike this weekend. However, I am thinking about going with the XD on a front hub, no PAS, throttle only. The bikes both have braze-ons for a front rack and I could put controller and battery on a top mount front rack and mount the display and throttle above on the handle bars - a very stealthy build with minimal wiring. This would allow me to convert rather easily back to a non-electric bike from time to time.

I don't recall seeing much in this thread about mounting the XD as a front hub. With the single speed I wanted max torque for hill climbing but in this scenario I would have a 10 cog cassette in back. So rather than a 48V installation, I am thinking of going with a 36V install. Does anyone have any idea how well the XD works as a front hub motor? Any particular pluses or minuses that you can think of? Thanks again!

 

[d8veh]

I finally got round to installing my new 48v Xiongda kit with the sine-wave controller. It'a a revelation compared with the first version. It's really smooth and quiet. I find the change-over from high to low and back again just about right. There's not much of a delay, and it changes so smoothly.

At 15A, it has slightly more torque and speed than my 36v one, which I ran at 20A. No-load speed with the battery fully charged is 37kph.

I got one of those Panasonic downtube batteries from BMSBattery. Together, they make the electrical installation very neat and easy. The light weight of the motor doesn't spoil the rear air suspension too much. The all-up weight is only 21kg, so the bike has very light precise handling. These motors are definitely the way forward if you want good climbing power, but not an electric motorcycle.

 

[lowspark]

Very nice d8veh. That looks like a clean installation. It is good to hear how the system is evolving with controller upgrades.

 

[menvert]

I don't recall seeing much in this thread about mounting the XD as a front hub. With the single speed I wanted max torque for hill climbing but in this scenario I would have a 10 cog cassette in back. So rather than a 48V installation, I am thinking of going with a 36V install. Does anyone have any idea how well the XD works as a front hub motor? Any particular pluses or minuses that you can think of? Thanks again!

I can't recall if anyone has set it up as a front hub on the thread yet, my considerations would be;
-Getting a torque arm may be a good idea.
-Probably limited to rim brakes as the dropout is 100mm or 110 for discs (which excludes a lot of conventional disc bikes)
-You need to make sure the forks have space for the shape of the motor (disk forks will be flat on the inside fork for example)
-If you have shockies, they may stop working if you have to add spacers or the motor is too wide due to the extra angle.
Also, I am not sure I'd be comfortable with all my weight up front, you'd want really good rear brakes...

I finally got round to installing my new 48v Xiongda kit with the sine-wave controller. It'a a revelation compared with the first version. It's really smooth and quiet. I find the change-over from high to low and back again just about right. There's not much of a delay, and it changes so smoothly.
These motors are definitely the way forward if you want good climbing power, but not an electric motorcycle.

Looks great d8veh

 

[ktmede]

I did setup mine in a front wheel. Since I wasn't sure which of my bikes I wanted to add the motor too (both have a 8 speed cassette).
So the first one went into my wife's hybrid.
I started with just the thumb throttle and took it for a short spin, since the PAS needed some more work.
I added the brake levers w/ sensors, but took them off again after I installed the PAS. Mainly to remove the extra wiring and in my opinion, you don't really need them if you use it as pedal assist.
If you prefer to bike - over riding a moped, you'll probably don't bother about the throttle. I like the PAS setup a lot better. Just choose an assist level and go.
Next time I'll work on the bike, I'll take the throttle off and perhaps add some torque arms.
The automatic shifting works well as long as you are not under too much load - like in PAS 1 or 2 if you do your share of pedaling. If you set it to 5, if goes back and forth between L and H. I usually set it to H and assist level 1 or 2 unless I go up a steep hill, then I choose L.
I forgot to mention, this is a 48V 300W (the 300W is what was written on the Yona's excel sheet) 280 RPM motor w/ KT48SVPR-XD15 controller I got about a month ago.
Here are a few pictures of it:

 

[lowspark]

I can't recall if anyone has set it up as a front hub on the thread yet, my considerations would be;
-Getting a torque arm may be a good idea.
-Probably limited to rim brakes as the dropout is 100mm or 110 for discs (which excludes a lot of conventional disc bikes)
-You need to make sure the forks have space for the shape of the motor (disk forks will be flat on the inside fork for example)
-If you have shockies, they may stop working if you have to add spacers or the motor is too wide due to the extra angle.
Also, I am not sure I'd be comfortable with all my weight up front, you'd want really good rear brakes...

I finally got round to installing my new 48v Xiongda kit with the sine-wave controller. It'a a revelation compared with the first version. It's really smooth and quiet. I find the change-over from high to low and back again just about right. There's not much of a delay, and it changes so smoothly.
These motors are definitely the way forward if you want good climbing power, but not an electric motorcycle.

Thanks menvert. This will be a steel road bike considered a "light touring bike". It will not have disc brakes and will have 100mm spacing on the fork. I have read when installing other front hub motors people may have an issue with the motor making contact with the fork as ktmede encountered and had to use spacers. I will print out the drawing at full size and see if the motor will fit with or without spacers before ordering. It has a steel fork, but I think a torque arm would be prudent. I'm not too worried about the braking with the weight up front - will only have about 8lb on the front rack and over the years have developed an instinct to get low and shift my weight back when braking hard but testing would make good sense.

ktmede - nice to see that you are giving that mixte frame a new life as an e-bike - hope the missus enjoys it. Any issues with mounting the powerful 4V 300 W version up front? I suppose with the PAS on lower assist the power is nicely controlled. I may have to run that wire and gain the advantages of the PAS - makes good sense.

 

[menvert]

Yup, I'd have preferred to be able to use front motor for my build for better weight distribution and puncture repairs, but front shockies w/disc meant it wouldn't work.
Changing a tube on a rear motor is a pain, especially if the frame is stretched I had to repair a puncture 3 times in a day on my old ebike then pushed it 3k to work and replaced the tube which was really hard in a frame stretched an extra 20mm

 

[spinningmagnets]

d8veh, that "Rocky Mountain" frame is awesome for a street commuter ebike. I just had a quick look at their website and the new ones have a smaller triangle. What year is it?

 

[d8veh]

I think it's about 2008 or 2009. They turn up on Ebay from time to time.

BTW, to answer one of your previous questions, this new version of the motor with the sine-wave controller is a quantum leap in noise reduction. It is by far the quietest I have ever ridden - quieter than the DD motors I've tried.

 

[Joe Cool]

I was wondering how this motor would fair in loose sand with a 3.5 sand tire? Any opinions as I am sure a small 250 w motor would burn out.
Thanks

 

[leelorr]

RE: Using this motor for sand, etc:

The manufacturer previously stated that they were working on a 500 watt version. I am not sure if they are watching this discussion. Does anyone know if anything has happened as far as a more powerful motor being developed? I have been waiting until one comes out so that I could try using one for sand and trails as the previous poster requested.

Thanks,
leelorr

 

[d8veh]

A friend of mine will be visiting the factory next week. Hopefully we'll get news of developments, which I'll post here.

I've done about 200 miles on my 48v one, so I have a bit more info about it. In levels 1 to 4 it behaves like any other small motor (about 120mm dia) with a top speed of just over 20 mph. The auto gear change only happens in level 5. You can force it into low gear by using level 6 for which the display shows "L". If you use the throttle, the display immediately shows level 5, and the auto change happens like when you're in level 5.

The controller definitely uses current control:
Level 1 is about 70w
Level 2 is 120-150w
Level 3 is 220-250w
Level 4 is about 350w
Level 5 is about 550w

When you use the throttle, the display seems to immediately show over 500w regardless of how much you rotate it. I don't think it'll be very efficient if you don't use the PAS, i.e. throttle only.

 

[menvert]

What was the controller brand d8veh? I guess you have the Lishui as I don't get an L in low gear or have the PAS number change?
It certainly sounds different to my 36v KT sine, with accelerator I can use throttle and the KT LCD3 Wattage display is completely as expected anywhere up to about 500w, the Auto gears will try to work no matter what PAS level or accellerator is selected.
But then Lona told me the Lishui isn't available for 48v, perplexing.

 

[panurge]

Interesting report as usual...

I'm now making a comparison with the Lishui SineWave+KM5S and the KTSineWave+LCD3 I Have both on the same bike, a 28" prototype that's actuallly our test bike, poor one, it has been rebuilt multiple times, I mean cut & re-welded, even to host a bbs and a sunstar mounted upside down...
The XD motor is labeled "24inc 36v"
Batteries are 10s lipos
The Bike is on a Tacx.
Note that there is no difference in power and speed, between the 2 combos, but a huge difference in terms of how fast they reverse the spin.
Now I'm waiting for a new CA to be inlined and plan to experiment with an exotic controller and manual reversing . than (yes, with a better camera) I will made even rolling tests.
At the end of January, hopefully, I'll find the time to make the "vertical" comparison with the 4 supposedly differently wound motors (20-24-26-28).
[youtube]LmbBwt4U6_A[/youtube](KT)
[youtube]fJaBQ7y_OBo[/youtube](Lishui)

 

[d8veh]

My controller's marked KT 48SVPR-XD15, so it's a Kunteng sinewave 48v 15A with the large LCD3 display and no manual change switch.

 

[menvert]

My controller's marked KT 48SVPR-XD15, so it's a Kunteng sinewave 48v 15A with the large LCD3 display and no manual change switch.

hmm, very odd, it's seems it's be the same as mine - KT36SVPR-XD15, I just tested mine without the HAL switch and it seems to be auto in all PAS modes except in PAS 5 it's locked to High, I have no level 6 PAS, so I guess your controller is programmed specifically for no HAL switch, hmm let me dig up the Programming manual again, maybe I can set it to speed PAS or something, as the lowest PAS on mine is just dangerous (seems the lowest it accelerates is like 25% throttle) when I am riding around people, whereas lowest accelerater is very small.

Interesting report as usual...

I'm now making a comparison with the Lishui SineWave+KM5S and the KTSineWave+LCD3 I Have both on the same bike, a 28" prototype that's actuallly our test bike, poor one, it has been rebuilt multiple times, I mean cut & re-welded, even to host a bbs and a sunstar mounted upside down...

Nice, the Lishui is much faster at switching gear, and interesting to see how the efficiency stacks up (input watts vs output watts) though I am not too sure about the trax output is that average watts at the wheel or something?

 

[panurge]

Yes, that's the route they follow with KT, but even if the H-A-L switch looks actually a bit raw and not so much OEM, I'm not persuaded that loosing it would be a good idea...I'm more to keep all buttons together in a remote wired device, but having the display that shows the actual gear could be cool.....on The LCD3 display a simple and elegant way to do that could be to reverse the spin direction of the small rotor animation, that's also very true :wink:
The tacx would actively apply the load to the roller so that those are effetively "true" value at the wheel. As epected in low gear the efficiency is always on the best spot (for those loads), and the load from the tacx couldn't lower it that much. Anyway that has been only the first test with the dual controller bike, and leaving the accuracy questions, once a wattmeter is mounted, it will be useful mostly to verify the differences in Amps and climb ability between the 2, the shifting response and feeling, the accuracy of the volt-watt-speed values.
Yes, It is faster, and in real world applications, riding the bike, you can feel that difference even more.....also you can look how the different Speed / Torque sensing methods works, Lishui change the gear anyway at that speed, that is usefull to me mostly because is very stable and you can exactly predict if and when it reverse. KT will stay at the top speed of the first gear for seconds under load, and then, during the reverse, the speed decreases from 19 to 12-13 or even less, that's a pain.

Not easy to feel it from the poor videos, but Lishui is very stable in throttle response, with a fixed (and little) amount of delay, otherwise the delay with KT can change a lot on different scenarios, reaching, by throttle only, sometimes, unacceptable limits; sometimes (it happens twice on the KT video) it would even try to start in High gear... :? sometimes KT seems so conflicted/confused that is unable to decide, remaining "neutral" for an age....

Lishui's PAS has a nice smooth algorithm at start and at a low cadence but is than totally WOT (the KM5S would allow to modify that but these features are closed here), KT PAS seems otherwise more progressive; both are very reactive.

Noise is now amazingly low with both combos, Seems XD use now a better grease compared to the early sold motors.

 

[docnjoj]

Sorry to report no progress in opening my motor yet. I hope to try using a 4 foot 2x4 with the center hole and a allen screw for the cover. I am using my 9C now until I can find what froze the motor. I guess I have had the only failure of this kind.
otherDoc

 

[menvert]

I played around with some programming settings and even though I set the PAS stuff back to my default (back to P3=1, C3=8, C4=0) I now have 'low aggression' PAS, it is a lot better (I can pedal in PAS 1 and it only assists a little with no jerk forward as it engages anymore, so no pedestrian danger anymore )
I also found a dangerous setting;
C3 = 6 Means at power on it will immediately accelerate to 6kmh, scary
C3 = 7 powers on in PAS 6 and as soon as you press up or down it'll go into 6kmh mode

C4 = 2 was interesting PAS is not speed limited but Accelerator is (you set it after choosing C4=2)
c4 = 4 Means accelerator max speed is controlled by PAS Level, (more like the Lishui)

 

[mountain biker]

omg....someone putit in the front....now way..thats what I wanted to do originally.... I guesse since you don't have the human power behind it like in the rear..it messes up the automatic speed. so could it fit in the front with out much work..it seems everyone must stretch out their frames if its in the rear...and can you limit the power with the controller.. always heard more than 500 watts its kinda hard on the front dropouts. why doesn't this company make motor sizes compatabile with most bikes...was it originally designed for a tandum bike or a trike?

 

[menvert]

omg....someone putit in the front....now way..thats what I wanted to do originally.... I guesse since you don't have the human power behind it like in the rear..it messes up the automatic speed. so could it fit in the front with out much work..it seems everyone must stretch out their frames if its in the rear...and can you limit the power with the controller.. always heard more than 500 watts its kinda hard on the front dropouts. why doesn't this company make motor sizes compatabile with most bikes...was it originally designed for a tandum bike or a trike?

I am sure it works fine in the front, on carbon frame, and to a lesser extent alloy, some people don't want to run higher watts, though with a torque arm on each side you should mitigate any issues with a 500w

Human power on rear and motor on front will not realistically change the way the bike or motor performs, except for in the case that the Motor looses traction going up hill, due to not enough weight on front.... It feels a little different, and you might get slightly more Gyroscopic resistence turning. My friend only had to stretch his because frame tube of the fork gets in the way.

It would have been nice to have a 100mm disk front version I'd have bought that... other manafacturers make the front motor thinnner but bigger circumference, but from what I understand (I could be wrong) unfortunately with the XD they are already reducing the width of the magnets/stator to make space for the gearing, so if the did make it fit 'standard' drop outs, we'd get an even lower power motor

 

[docnjoj]

Well I just tried to open the motor with no luck but bad luck. I snapped off the first Allen screw and bent the 2nd one using a 4 foot length drilled 2x4 as a lever. This motor appears unopenable. Any suggestions. It is frozen and does not work and until I find out what broke inside I'm stuck.
otherDoc