2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

[menvert]

Changing the windings won't change the torque/speed capability of the motor, just the voltage/current needed to generate the motor's available torque.

The small wheel will help the climbing capability by better leveraging the available torque.

I don't mind using a different controller. and giving up auto-shifting.

I guess you could always solder the shunt to get 20A if extra current will help, unless that's why we are starting to get failed motors?

I'd be interested in a 3rd party controller with reverse too, which might be able to shift faster, auto shift never worked for me anyway, I was tempted to get a Lyen but I do like the LCD (which shows volts, speed, temp and watts) I have with the KT

 

[Alan B]

I expect that using a third party controller will be a manual shifting option, so the speed of shifting isn't much of an issue. Perhaps the motor will last better as well, the shifting may be hard on the motor's mechanicals.

otherDoc reported the motor still takes 500W but doesn't move, so that tends to indicate the windings are not burned/shorted, but that the mechanical components have jammed. I wonder if that motor had high quality grease.

Is the fastest wind of this motor the 26" 22mph 48V variety?

 

[menvert]

I expect that using a third party controller will be a manual shifting option, so the speed of shifting isn't much of an issue. Perhaps the motor will last better as well, the shifting may be hard on the motor's mechanicals.

Is the fastest wind of this motor the 26" 22mph 48V variety?

Yeah I am very curious as to how fast we could shift using a different controller, as the KT even manually shifting has a built in delay of about 2 seconds (which means losing a lot of momentum when hill climbing), I assume because switching direction has some momentum/inertia to deal with, so very interested to know how much this can be improved. Maybe even need to look into controllers that have some electric braking code, to speed up the shifting time? bit out of my depth with how DLDC deal with reverse while spinning

I think they will do a 20" 22mph (not sure if they'll do both 36 & 48 but pretty sure they do 48)

 

[Alan B]

I'm sure the motor can be reversed very quickly, the problem comes when it catches up and the freewheel takes that shock. That may be what is killing some of these motors. It may be important to NOT shift them hard to make them last. If you can't carry the higher gear at a lower speed (due to slow shift), where the torque is actually a bit higher, then shifting was a mistake. In my case, I suspect no shifting is wanted or needed except on very steep hills, and then one stays in low gear until the climb is no longer steep. Shifting speed should be slow enough to avoid pounding the motor parts, the goal is to make it last.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I'm curious is the clutch rollers are sticking. They use three each so they are self-centering, but...there is clearly room for more. If the forces were spread across more clutch-rollers, each one would feel less of the total load.

 

[menvert]

I'm sure the motor can be reversed very quickly, the problem comes when it catches up and the freewheel takes that shock. That may be what is killing some of these motors. It may be important to NOT shift them hard to make them last. If you can't carry the higher gear at a lower speed (due to slow shift), where the torque is actually a bit higher, then shifting was a mistake. In my case, I suspect no shifting is wanted or needed except on very steep hills, and then one stays in low gear until the climb is no longer steep. Shifting speed should be slow enough to avoid pounding the motor parts, the goal is to make it last.

It sounds like your talking about shifting into high when you crest the hill, which is not as much of an issue.
The scenario I would like improvement on is - going along in high at 29kmh, come to hill, climb up 2/3 of the way up till it slows to about 16kmh, switch to low, wait the 2 seconds, it now slows to 12kmh before it engages and takes another 3 seconds to get back up to 15kmh climbing speed of low.

Basically it means the effective gap between high and low does not have enough overlap, I always have to strain the motor or sacrifice more speed by shifting at higher speed.

I know it's probably unrealistic and 2 seconds is reasonable delay if this means better motor life and may already be as quick as it can be for safe use. I can always hope...

 

[panurge]

I have the last Sine KT controllers in test right now.

Although they work better than the old in autoshift, matching the right gear most of the time, The delay seems not acceptable to me, even slower that the old non-sine KT. The good is that is really silent.
Perhaps I'm used to the Lishui + KM combo, that is still waaaay better than the KT.....But I'm close to 1000Km with the small Fat and I'm all the time in auto, I mean all the time. The shifting time is so fast that I cannot figure out it faster, given the physical limits of the method....
I had the feel, riding the 2 combos last days, the the Lishui not only is faster in the gear determination due to the single variable speed detection/process, as I reported before in the thread, but seems that it actively brakes the motor to reach faster 0 rpm thus resulting in a faster reverse action, does it make sense?
Anyway, whatever the reasons, the difference is so sensible, that I'm now ordering Lishui-KM combos for my last motor order, to replace the KT, just to give you an idea......Maybe that's a personal question, but I'm pretty sure any of you that use the KT will notice an improooooved ride feeling with Lishui.

 

[menvert]

Sweet, thanks for that Panurge, I have pondered getting the Lishui + KM for the reported better shifting (and hugely better auto-shift), what stats show on the display? (does it do temp and Watts?)

 

[Alan B]

Nice, and what speeds do you get on those small wheels at what voltage panurge? Are those 20"?

A really well done shifting system would know the ratio of the speeds and have a separate speed sensor so it could accelerate hard but land the shift softly.

 

[menvert]

Ouch, maybe I won't be trying the Lishui in a hurry, that's like 1/3 (maybe 1/2 after currency conversion) of a 12s 16Ah battery(except HK is out of stock);
Lishui controller 36V version:28USD
kingmeter display : 48USD.
Shipping fee :30USD

 

[panurge]

Sweet, thanks for that Panurge, I have pondered getting the Lishui + KM for the reported better shifting (and hugely better auto-shift), what stats show on the display? (does it do temp and Watts?)

It shows watts but not temp, It has the pas button on the display (KM5S) It has very limited programming functions (wheel dia/speed limit) and, the old one I have, like other reported too, has the "little" issue that the PAS level is also limiting the throttle.

Another "new" feature discovered is that using a simple bridged plug for the controller instead of the Display, I'm Able to run the motor/controller without the Display.....I've to test it on the street, but on the bench, seems to me that it shift faster than with the display.
That's proven only to work with KT controllers, I'll report more on that soon....and try the same with Lishui (but I'm not so confident it could work).

Nice, and what speeds do you get on those small wheels at what voltage panurge? Are those 20"?

A really well done shifting system would know the ratio of the speeds and have a separate speed sensor so it could accelerate hard but land the shift softly.

It actually shifts up at 16Kph and down at about 13-14kph whatever is the grade or the duty (torque request) but someone has reported that the new Lishui have a different firmware. The right approach with mine, If you have true hills to ride on, or heavy trailers to pull is to determine your typical uphill/heavy-duty cruising speed and "choose" a shifting speed just a bit above that. That can be achieved by SW 'cause the Lishui has a programming port that works much like the CA (delete old firmware, reflash new firmware)....but also manipulating the rear wheel Inches settings so that when it detect 15Kph it is instead 10kph or 20, depends on your needs. Obviously the speedo/odo will be affected by the same "error".

That motor is a standard 20" motor wound for 32kph @36v I will try it at 12s, maybe.
In low, Actually (10s lipo) the bike is really prone to wheelies at start If you use the throttle. Otherwise, Pas is really smooth at starting (as the lishui) and much more responsive than standard PAS i've used before on Chinese stuff, as yet reported by d8veh.

 

[lowspark]

Thank you menvert, d8veh and ktmede for the info on brake cut-off alternatives. I should be able to find a good simple solution.

 

[docnjoj]

I should have photos up later in the week but first I have to get the old 9C with sinewave back on the bike. I then should have time to get pictures, as Yona also wants to see them. I agree it does feel like a mechanical jam rather than a coil or electronic issue.
otherDoc

 

[ktmede]

The early messages in this thread talked about opening up the motor when new and putting new grease in.
Is that still necessary with today's motors? Mine should arrive tomorrow.

 

[d8veh]

Well my problems with the noise are over. The motor froze up! It would not turn at all, and I had to be towed home by my wife's bike. Luckily the freewheel began to allow rotation, but motor just draws 500 watts and doesn't turn at all. End of the line.
otherDoc

They're very easy to dismantle. Could be just a screw come loose inside and jamming it.

 

[menvert]

The early messages in this thread talked about opening up the motor when new and putting new grease in.
Is that still necessary with today's motors? Mine should arrive tomorrow.

Good Question, I wondered too, but ended up deciding not to open it up, I have 1300 k's on mine now, the noise is the same as it always was, (hollow gear sound under high load, otherwise pretty quiet really)

 

[spinningmagnets]

Monday I sent an email to...yona@xiongdamotor.com.cn...and I also sent an email in the alibaba (Chinese Ebay) inquiry window.

(later, on the invoice, there is also a contact email of: yonazhuang@gmail.com )

Today (Tuesday) she responded to both. They have two Kvs of motor. If using a 26-inch wheel, you can get 32 km/h on 36V or 35 km/h on 48V. I wanted to get the 36V motor (faster wind) and the 48V controller (controller must reverse on the fly, so I can't use my existing controllers) and I might have gotten 40 km/h (25-MPH), however...they definitely do NOT want to sell that to anyone. I suspect it may have to do with the clutches sticking. Since it is a bare motor (no spokes or rim) I might have asked for a 48V system for a 20-inch wheel (which I would lace to a 26-inch rim to get a higher speed than 35 km/h)

It appears the disc brake side-plate adds 10mm to the width, so drop-outs for a front motor a V-brake is 100mm, disc is 110mm. The rear would be 135mm for V-brake, 145mm for disc.

Then very soon after I responded she sent me an invoice to approve, and a paypal address to send the money to. It appears they don't have an option for selling a motor that is already laced to a rim (I'm sure this is why they have yet to be seen being used very often).

 

[Alan B]

So all these rumors about having a bunch of different winds are not correct, they just have two winding configurations.

 

[lowspark]

So all these rumors about having a bunch of different winds are not correct, they just have two winding configurations.

This is part of an email from yona:

Is your ebike wheelsize is 27.5''? or similar size ?
for USA market we usually do 32km/h(max) ,if this speed suitable for you?because our motor speed can be made according to your needs.
Kind regards,
Yona

 

[spinningmagnets]

There probably are more winds available, but she sounded like she only wanted to sell me one or the other. I was hoping to get an answer as to how many choices there are as to Kv. I'm sure the average customer just wants to tell her what tire diameter and voltage they have, and Yona can provide top speed options (she only gave me two at this time).

I should have just ordered both a 36V and 48V 2-speed controllers (they are cheap), and one each of the two motors. I also wish the motors had model numbers, so when one ES member posted results, a reader can order the same exact thing without fear of a misunderstanding.

I'm still trying to figure this out, don't put too much faith in what I post about this until I actually get my hands on it.

 

[menvert]

I can't make out the image very well but it looks like either a H-A-L switch or throttle is wired to the LCD03.

Assuming it is the same as my kit from 2 months ago; The HAL attaches directly to the LCD

I realized I made a slight error here, it is the LCD buttons (for controlling PAS level and the display) that attach to the LCD3 via a short cable, the HAL switch wires to the controller

 

[menvert]

I think as being 1st contact you'll get the official 1st response, then you can ask for something more specific.
For me being in AU she only wanted to sell me a 25kmh 36v (we have the EU laws) but after that we discussed and she said she could supply the RPM I wanted... it's probably just that you are trying to order a system above what they consider the max safe speed for the motor, I asked a few times and she'd give me almost any RPM/top speed, but only up to a certain upper limit...

However similar to your case spinningmagnets, she was not comfortable with supplying me with a 48v controller for my 36v specced motor, one reason is that the auto gear change point is different, and I guess the LVC

I think if you insist you'll get what you want, if it's physically possible. I am pretty sure they do many windings, as there is a lot of variation in what speeds people are getting here. mine seems to match the rpm's (280) that I asked for (and it did not come speed limited at all), though someone here said this RPM is standard for a bigger wheel for US model

Other option is if you really want 35kmh 36v order it for a 22" @ 32kmh and see if they will do it and lace it into 26"
Also You can order it laced, it just cost an extra $165 for shipping and parts when I got a quote for it

 

[panurge]

I have now 6 of these motors running or ready to be laced to extend the test on them. there are 20" 24" 26" and 28" @36v and one 48v controller, all comes with KT sine and LCD3 but I have also a lishui+KM5S, so hopefully I'll say something more about windings, finally.
Is there any easy way I can test them on the bench do determine the speed, other than the built in speedo?
I would try no load amps and speedo first and than work back from the real world speed, when laced, but I'm open to tips and suggestions.
a pair of these motors goes to 10000+km per year guys.
I'll check the grease soon and report if any difference, the axle sure looks different (hardened, better steel)
We have actually a small fleet of XD here at ES, guys....Sadly we have oDoc's motor fail, we will see next months....

 

[menvert]

For a start I would have thought if you set them all to 700c with no speed limiting full throttle on the same battery then they should all get a different mph proving that there are at least 4 windings?
You could then roughly calculate the RPM from a fairly standard 700c tyre circumference, say 2.193m... and get a fairly accurate unloaded RPM (using that my 35kmh unloaded 700c calculates to about 270-280rpm), will probably go faster without the Rim's laced though

 

[ktmede]

So all these rumors about having a bunch of different winds are not correct, they just have two winding configurations.

This is part of an email from yona:

Is your ebike wheelsize is 27.5''? or similar size ?
for USA market we usually do 32km/h(max) ,if this speed suitable for you?because our motor speed can be made according to your needs.
Kind regards,
Yona

I ordered two 48V 300W motors, one with 280 RPM and one with 300. Both will end up in a 700c wheel. I hope to get 30 / 35 kmh out of them.
If you do that, and order spokes from them make sure you tell them explicitly the size you want. Unfortunately they thought I'll be lacing the 300 RPM motor in a 26" wheel and sent me one set of spokes which are too short. Now I have to look locally for a new set of spokes, since they are reluctant to send out spokes by itself due to the shipping cost.