2009/03/03 Shenzhen 3 Speed Controller @ 133v Success!

[bobmcree]

there are several different types of hall sensors used in motors, some latch with one field polarity and do not unlatch until the polarity reverses, and some respond directly to the applied field. maybe the two different types were used in the different cases. if you can read any numbers on the sensors we might be able to find out.

 

[steveo]

there are several different types of hall sensors used in motors, some latch with one field polarity and do not unlatch until the polarity reverses, and some respond directly to the applied field. maybe the two different types were used in the different cases. if you can read any numbers on the sensors we might be able to find out.

Hey Bob

s40a hall sensors i believe are in my x5304 which this controller will not work on

My x405 series uses the "41F 801" hall sensors I put in as replacements & the controller works perfectly fine with!, i haven't been able to find a spec sheet on these halls.. I'm curious to know whats different between the 2 hall sensors.

The hall sensors where provided to my by my neighbor who works at the scooter shop

-steveo

 

[bobmcree]

the honeywell ss40 is very standard and i have used it to replace hub motor sensors and the kollmorgen motors' sensors. it requires about 100 gauss to switch and the field must reverse to -100 gauss for it to release. (actual spec 50-150). i don't know what the other sensor does, but you might play with it by using a magnet and see if it acts similar to the ss40. the ss49 is a linear sensor typically used in hall throttles, and it produces a voltage linear with the magnetic field. i suspect that the sensor that does not work switches too early or too late for the controller to work with, or possibly uses more supply current. In the crystalyte controllers there is a resistor in series with the 14v supply to the sensors that causes the supply voltage to drop to 5v when connected to some motors. This is barely enough to operate some sensors. maybe the sensors you had drop the supply down too far? The only reason i can see for this resistor is to protect the controller in case of a short in the cable, but i might have missed something else.

 

[steveo]

I finally Have Videos of this controller sucessfuly modded to my motor.

In Order to make this work i had to change my hall sensors from the original 40a type halls to the 41f type hall sensors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hO2W0C99mU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOn-94GSanQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt35U6UkG50&feature=channel_page

I have more description in the first 2 videos.

-steveo

 

[solarbbq2003]

testing 133volt indoors.........thats confidence!
so can I confirm the shudder problem is solved by changing the hall sensors to 41f type?

 

[solarbbq2003]

one more question! do you take the 150ohmn resistor out of the circuit after switching to main power?

 

[steveo]

testing 133volt indoors.........thats confidence!
so can I confirm the shudder problem is solved by changing the hall sensors to 41f type?

Noo...

The Shutter issue was the controller...not the hall sensors... In order for this controller to work properly i had to change the hall sensors.

-steveo

 

[bobmcree]

In Order to make this work i had to change my hall sensors from the original 40a type halls to the 41f type hall sensors.

-steveo

a quick look at the spec reveals a couple of reasons why the 41f may be working better for you. first, the original SS40A switches at a slightly higher magnetic field, and second, the SS40A is a bit slower to respond. This could make the hall signal occur a bit later in the motor revolutions. I expect you could see this as a difference in the hall sensor pulse width at the same rpm. There could be certain rpm's where the problem would be accentuated. In all it looks like the 41f is a better choice.

 

[steveo]

one more question! do you take the 150ohmn resistor out of the circuit after switching to main power?

Hey

Good question .. you could removed it after you have pluged the main power .. or you could leave it pluged in.. not harm in doing either or ...

-steveo

 

[bobmcree]

for those who might have missed it we are getting the IRFB4110 fets for $1.60 US in qty 100+ and the 150v TO220 IRFB4115 for the same price in qty 200+. I still need a couple of guys to go in on the 4115s as i cannot handle 200 myself, so let me know please if you want in on the order.

a little more research on hall sensors has revealed that their supply current increases greatly with temperature. this may be why some controllers put a resistor in series with the supply to the halls.

 

[Almasi]

Can someone give me a better idea of the maximum current I will be able to push with the 4115 Mosfet ? (with 12 or 18)

I know phase current is 2.3 times motor current...but how do I find out the maximum current that the fet can handle with their 9.1 mOhm resistance?

like this 12 Fet = 2 Fet per phase so 9.1mOhm / 2 = 4.56mOhm

But then how do calculate current limit?

Quick math made me think that 18 mosfet controller with 4115 would only be good for 40 Amp maximum battery current...which is not very high.

and 18 4110 would be good for about 98 Amp Hmmmm this make me think I should go with 20 4110 instead of 4115

Robin

 

[steveo]

Can someone give me a better idea of the maximum current I will be able to push with the 4115 Mosfet ? (with 12 or 18)

I know phase current is 2.3 times motor current...but how do I find out the maximum current that the fet can handle with their 9.1 mOhm resistance?

like this 12 Fet = 2 Fet per phase so 9.1mOhm / 2 = 4.56mOhm

But then how do calculate current limit?

Quick math made me think that 18 mosfet controller with 4115 would only be good for 40 Amp maximum battery current...which is not very high.

and 18 4110 would be good for about 98 Amp Hmmmm this make me think I should go with 20 4110 instead of 4115

Robin

Question is how much power do you really need?

Believe it or not .. My new 133v controller has the factory 32amp shunt x 133v .. this is tons of torque .. tons!! !! !! close to 7000watts ..

And the acceleration is ridiculous .... that is WITHOUT shunt modification .. With shunt modification i could get even more torque!! ..

I'm sticking with fdp2535 fets because its what i have on hand.. but my next controller with use the 4115's for sure

What motor are you running? x5?

-steveo

 

[Doctorbass]

:lol: Here is the famous current Vs Volt question again...

Guys.. you are missing something here!...

7000W at 133V 35A is fesable but on motor with high number of coil turn per phase.. like 5305 or 5306.. or.. Steveo.. 5304..

Remember.. 5302 is low coil turn (2) so it will have more current and less volt for the same power than a 5305 with more turn at more volt less current....

So the real quesrtion here is: if you want to get max power to the motor... : wich motor winding do you have!

ex: for a 5303 I would go for the 4110 and for a 5305 or 5306 i would go for the 4115...

but i still think that having higher volt and less amp is nice and efficient .. but the 4115 have veri high Miliohm i think... if they could have like 6 or 7miliohm with 150V.. I would go for them.. but their resistance vs max volt is too high i think..

For that I agree with Almasi.

So i preffer keeping 100V with the 4110... 18 of them!!! .. just imagine that now i'm limiting to 90-100A with only two.. and i still worry a bit to one day.. blowing it.. but!.. with 3 i'll be able to use it at like 120-125A without bothering!!

Doc

 

[Almasi]

:lol: Here is the famous current Vs Volt question again...

Guys.. you are missing something here!...

7000W at 133V 35A is fesable but on motor with high number of coil turn per phase.. like 5305 or 5306.. or.. Steveo.. 5304..

Remember.. 5302 is low coil turn (2) so it will have more current and less volt for the same power than a 5305 with more turn at more volt less current....

So the real quesrtion here is: if you want to get max power to the motor... : wich motor winding do you have!

ex: for a 5303 I would go for the 4110 and for a 5305 or 5306 i would go for the 4115...

but i still think that having higher volt and less amp is nice and efficient .. but the 4115 have veri high Miliohm i think... if they could have like 6 or 7miliohm with 150V.. I would go for them.. but their resistance vs max volt is too high i think..

For that I agree with Almasi.

So i preffer keeping 100V with the 4110... 18 of them!!! .. just imagine that now i'm limiting to 90-100A with only two.. and i still worry a bit to one day.. blowing it.. but!.. with 3 i'll be able to use it at like 120-125A without bothering!!

Doc

Thanks!

I don't have the motor yet, I will be ordering next week or so, it will be a 5304 most probably (the new one that Ebike.ca have with disk brake mount and 14mm axle) I plan on running 88.8 Volt nominal and 100 off the charger (24S3P) RC Lipo 88.8Volt and 15 Amp total power with option for an extra battery pack to make it 24S4P and get 20 Amp their rating is 15C continious(20C peak), so running at 100Amp on the controller it will be pushing 5C or 6.7C (without extra pack)

Does it make sense 5304 at 88.8V and 100Amp maximum battery current with 18 X 4110 Mosfet in Infineon controller with DC to DC regulator for running the controller up to 100V and down to 44.4 if I run low speed (12S6P).



Robin

 

[Doctorbass]

:lol: Here is the famous current Vs Volt question again...

Guys.. you are missing something here!...

7000W at 133V 35A is fesable but on motor with high number of coil turn per phase.. like 5305 or 5306.. or.. Steveo.. 5304..

Remember.. 5302 is low coil turn (2) so it will have more current and less volt for the same power than a 5305 with more turn at more volt less current....

So the real quesrtion here is: if you want to get max power to the motor... : wich motor winding do you have!

ex: for a 5303 I would go for the 4110 and for a 5305 or 5306 i would go for the 4115...

but i still think that having higher volt and less amp is nice and efficient .. but the 4115 have veri high Miliohm i think... if they could have like 6 or 7miliohm with 150V.. I would go for them.. but their resistance vs max volt is too high i think..

For that I agree with Almasi.

So i preffer keeping 100V with the 4110... 18 of them!!! .. just imagine that now i'm limiting to 90-100A with only two.. and i still worry a bit to one day.. blowing it.. but!.. with 3 i'll be able to use it at like 120-125A without bothering!!

Doc

Thanks!

I don't have the motor yet, I will be ordering next week or so, it will be a 5304 most probably (the new one that Ebike.ca have with disk brake mount and 14mm axle) I plan on running 88.8 Volt nominal and 100 off the charger (24S3P) RC Lipo 88.8Volt and 15 Amp total power with option for an extra battery pack to make it 24S4P and get 20 Amp their rating is 15C continious(20C peak), so running at 100Amp on the controller it will be pushing 5C or 6.7C (without extra pack)

Does it make sense 5304 at 88.8V and 100Amp maximum battery current with 18 X 4110 Mosfet in Infineon controller with DC to DC regulator for running the controller up to 100V and down to 44.4 if I run low speed (12S6P).



Robin

Yes it does!

The old 5305 i have have also the 14mm axel.. but the new custom 5305 i'll have will have 18mm Axel!

Doc

 

[Almasi]

The old 5305 i have have also the 14mm axel.. but the new custom 5305 i'll have will have 18mm Axel!

Doc

I guess it's the only way to find some space for few more wire and 2 coolant line

Can you give me some info on that 18 mm axel ???

I was thinking of simply making 2 groove on the axel (on the gear side) and having the coolant line there... but 18mm axel sound better

Robin

 

[steveo]

:lol: Here is the famous current Vs Volt question again...

Guys.. you are missing something here!...

7000W at 133V 35A is fesable but on motor with high number of coil turn per phase.. like 5305 or 5306.. or.. Steveo.. 5304..

Remember.. 5302 is low coil turn (2) so it will have more current and less volt for the same power than a 5305 with more turn at more volt less current....

So the real quesrtion here is: if you want to get max power to the motor... : wich motor winding do you have!

ex: for a 5303 I would go for the 4110 and for a 5305 or 5306 i would go for the 4115...

but i still think that having higher volt and less amp is nice and efficient .. but the 4115 have veri high Miliohm i think... if they could have like 6 or 7miliohm with 150V.. I would go for them.. but their resistance vs max volt is too high i think..

For that I agree with Almasi.

So i preffer keeping 100V with the 4110... 18 of them!!! .. just imagine that now i'm limiting to 90-100A with only two.. and i still worry a bit to one day.. blowing it.. but!.. with 3 i'll be able to use it at like 120-125A without bothering!!

Doc

Hey Doc..

The 4110's are great mosfets! i will be using these fets in a controller for my second build!!..

Doc once you try 133v .. you will not want to go back to 100v .. you know that point at around 70km/h when your bike loses its toque pulling ability... picture having that low end pull at that speed .. its intense!!!

you must try at least ..

-steveo

 

[Almasi]

Hey Doc..

The 4110's are great mosfets! i will be using these fets in a controller for my second build!!..

Doc once you try 133v .. you will not want to go back to 100v .. you know that point at around 70km/h when your bike loses its toque pulling ability... picture having that low end pull at that speed .. its intense!!!

you must try at least ..

-steveo

How fast was your 5304 at 100 Volt ? (I plan on pushing up to 100 Amp)

Robin

 

[Doctorbass]

The old 5305 i have have also the 14mm axel.. but the new custom 5305 i'll have will have 18mm Axel!

Doc

I guess it's the only way to find some space for few more wire and 2 coolant line

Can you give me some info on that 18 mm axel ???

I was thinking of simply making 2 groove on the axel (on the gear side) and having the coolant line there... but 18mm axel sound better

Robin

Robin, The 18mm is to allow the axel to apply less stress the dropout.. the 14mm apply 4.6 tons of force on the edge of the flat on the axel at full power on my setup..

With more power i just want to avoid to make the axel to drill my entire heavy torque arm!! so adding 2mm on each radius would help alot!!.. at least that's what the mecanical ingeneers at my work recommmanded me after seeing my setup!

the coolant pipe will probably have their hole at the place where normallt the casette is... i'll just keep the 11tooth...

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

:lol: Here is the famous current Vs Volt question again...

Guys.. you are missing something here!...

7000W at 133V 35A is fesable but on motor with high number of coil turn per phase.. like 5305 or 5306.. or.. Steveo.. 5304..

Remember.. 5302 is low coil turn (2) so it will have more current and less volt for the same power than a 5305 with more turn at more volt less current....

So the real quesrtion here is: if you want to get max power to the motor... : wich motor winding do you have!

ex: for a 5303 I would go for the 4110 and for a 5305 or 5306 i would go for the 4115...

but i still think that having higher volt and less amp is nice and efficient .. but the 4115 have veri high Miliohm i think... if they could have like 6 or 7miliohm with 150V.. I would go for them.. but their resistance vs max volt is too high i think..

For that I agree with Almasi.

So i preffer keeping 100V with the 4110... 18 of them!!! .. just imagine that now i'm limiting to 90-100A with only two.. and i still worry a bit to one day.. blowing it.. but!.. with 3 i'll be able to use it at like 120-125A without bothering!!

Doc

Hey Doc..

The 4110's are great mosfets! i will be using these fets in a controller for my second build!!..

Doc once you try 133v .. you will not want to go back to 100v .. you know that point at around 70km/h when your bike loses its toque pulling ability... picture having that low end pull at that speed .. its intense!!!

you must try at least ..

-steveo

steveo.. How much amy do you measure at max power ewhen runing at 133VDC?. I just want to know what power range are you talking about?.. cause i peak at 8100W and it's crazy!

I preffre having ore current and using the delta/WYE that multiply the speed by 1.73 !!

It would be like 173VDC but still at 100V !!


Just imagine:

130A at 90V.. ... 11700W ... with cooling..and no Methods toasted winding problem!

The only thing to worry would be the magnet saturation or magnetisation loos...

But to know that we need to test that!

after that we will really be able to say: WE REACHED THE MAXIMUM LIMIT OF AN X5 !!

for the science! :lol:

Doc


Doc

 

[steveo]

:lol: Here is the famous current Vs Volt question again...

Guys.. you are missing something here!...

7000W at 133V 35A is fesable but on motor with high number of coil turn per phase.. like 5305 or 5306.. or.. Steveo.. 5304..

Remember.. 5302 is low coil turn (2) so it will have more current and less volt for the same power than a 5305 with more turn at more volt less current....

So the real quesrtion here is: if you want to get max power to the motor... : wich motor winding do you have!

ex: for a 5303 I would go for the 4110 and for a 5305 or 5306 i would go for the 4115...

but i still think that having higher volt and less amp is nice and efficient .. but the 4115 have veri high Miliohm i think... if they could have like 6 or 7miliohm with 150V.. I would go for them.. but their resistance vs max volt is too high i think..

For that I agree with Almasi.

So i preffer keeping 100V with the 4110... 18 of them!!! .. just imagine that now i'm limiting to 90-100A with only two.. and i still worry a bit to one day.. blowing it.. but!.. with 3 i'll be able to use it at like 120-125A without bothering!!

Doc

Hey Doc..

The 4110's are great mosfets! i will be using these fets in a controller for my second build!!..

Doc once you try 133v .. you will not want to go back to 100v .. you know that point at around 70km/h when your bike loses its toque pulling ability... picture having that low end pull at that speed .. its intense!!!

you must try at least ..

-steveo

steveo.. How much amy do you measure at max power ewhen runing at 133VDC?. I just want to know what power range are you talking about?.. cause i peak at 8100W and it's crazy!

I preffre having ore current and using the delta/WYE that multiply the speed by 1.73 !!

It would be like 173VDC but still at 100V !!


Just imagine:

130A at 90V.. ... 11700W ... with cooling..and no Methods toasted winding problem!

The only thing to worry would be the magnet saturation or magnetisation loos...

But to know that we need to test that!

after that we will really be able to say: WE REACHED THE MAXIMUM LIMIT OF AN X5 !!

for the science! :lol:

Doc


Doc

Hey Doc

I don't know exactly the max wattage it will pull on the stock 32 amps shunt at 133v yet .. I have to first configure my c/a shunt as per its not calibrated yet.. i estimate close to 7000watts

I also know that the torque it higher at 133v @ 32 amps ... check the simulator on ebikes for yourself ... my toque with 133v @ 32 amps is 94lbs of torque

where as your buld .. you have 126lbs of torque for a 5305 @ 100v & 100amps.

for my x 5304 to get 121lbs of torque i only need a 50 amp shunt .. which is good for my wires .. and powerpole connections .. meaning less current needing to go through them!!! i am happy with that ..

With my new controller .. i will be neck & neck with you if your build will give you the speed your looking for .. my freewheel speed on 128v of batteries .. is 140km/h with my new controller...

on fully charged bats i will get minimum 150km/h .. take away 25% due to wind .. heat ... etc .. minimum .. 112km/h.

I just need to get my charger situation sorted out .. i'm short one charger to charge my pack .. i'm trying to fix one of my broken china 11.1amp...33v psu.

i need a freaking .47ohm resistor which means a 3rd mouser order in the last 30 days lol..

did you say water cooled x5?

-steveo

 

[Doctorbass]

Hey Doc

I don't know exactly the max wattage it will pull on the stock 32 amps shunt at 133v yet .. I have to first configure my c/a shunt as per its not calibrated yet.. i estimate close to 7000watts

I also know that the torque it higher at 133v @ 32 amps ... check the simulator on ebikes for yourself ... my toque with 133v @ 32 amps is 94lbs of torque

where as your buld .. you have 126lbs of torque for a 5305 @ 100v & 100amps.

for my x 5304 to get 121lbs of torque i only need a 50 amp shunt .. which is good for my wires .. and powerpole connections .. meaning less current needing to go through them!!! i am happy with that ..

With my new controller .. i will be neck & neck with you if your build will give you the speed your looking for .. my freewheel speed on 128v of batteries .. is 140km/h with my new controller...

on fully charged bats i will get minimum 150km/h .. take away 25% due to wind .. heat ... etc .. minimum .. 112km/h.

I just need to get my charger situation sorted out .. i'm short one charger to charge my pack .. i'm trying to fix one of my broken china 11.1amp...33v psu.

i need a freaking .47ohm resistor which means a 3rd mouser order in the last 30 days lol..

did you say water cooled x5?

-steveo

Yes watercooled X5 !

About the torque, what is amazing is that i only loose 6% of speed when comparing max no load speed and real max speed on my ebike ... no load is 82kmh... real is 76.7kmh... !

that is due to the very low loss and crazy high torque on my motor.

With a 20" wheel i will get around 180lbs of torque at 100V 100A max real speed drop to 65km/h compared with the 24"

But with the new 18 x 4110 mosfet controller that max current will goes to 130-140A and will give me around 200lbs of torque


That configuration will give me Max acceleration even possible with an X5 for speed up to around 55km/h

Then i'll switch to Delta to overide the drop of current due to the speed that is reaching the back emf of the motor.. so current will be re-increased and acceleration will continue up to 105-110kmh for 7000W max power at that top speed!

Doc

but when i'll go with the delta mode..

 

[steveo]

Hey Doc

I don't know exactly the max wattage it will pull on the stock 32 amps shunt at 133v yet .. I have to first configure my c/a shunt as per its not calibrated yet.. i estimate close to 7000watts

I also know that the torque it higher at 133v @ 32 amps ... check the simulator on ebikes for yourself ... my toque with 133v @ 32 amps is 94lbs of torque

where as your buld .. you have 126lbs of torque for a 5305 @ 100v & 100amps.

for my x 5304 to get 121lbs of torque i only need a 50 amp shunt .. which is good for my wires .. and powerpole connections .. meaning less current needing to go through them!!! i am happy with that ..

With my new controller .. i will be neck & neck with you if your build will give you the speed your looking for .. my freewheel speed on 128v of batteries .. is 140km/h with my new controller...

on fully charged bats i will get minimum 150km/h .. take away 25% due to wind .. heat ... etc .. minimum .. 112km/h.

I just need to get my charger situation sorted out .. i'm short one charger to charge my pack .. i'm trying to fix one of my broken china 11.1amp...33v psu.

i need a freaking .47ohm resistor which means a 3rd mouser order in the last 30 days lol..

did you say water cooled x5?

-steveo

Yes watercooled X5 !

About the torque, what is amazing is that i only loose 6% of speed when comparing max no load speed and real max speed on my ebike ... no load is 82kmh... real is 76.7kmh... !

that is due to the very low loss and crazy high torque on my motor.

With a 20" wheel i will get around 180lbs of torque at 100V 100A max real speed drop to 65km/h compared with the 24"

But with the new 18 x 4110 mosfet controller that max current will goes to 130-140A and will give me around 200lbs of torque


That configuration will give me Max acceleration even possible with an X5 for speed up to around 55km/h

Then i'll switch to Delta to overide the drop of current due to the speed that is reaching the back emf of the motor.. so current will be re-increased and acceleration will continue up to 105-110kmh for 7000W max power at that top speed!

Doc

but when i'll go with the delta mode..

180lbs of torque @ 100v & 100amps on x5305... Really? is the ebike simulator off? .. or doesn't go that high LOL

-steveo

 

[Doctorbass]

Steveo.. Here is the proof... But i needed to decrease the throttle to 61% cause the bad scaling make the reading too difficult.. but still 196pound of trust at 61% throttle!!

And THE TORQUE IS DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL TO THE CURRENT.. see on the graph for compare...

Please note that the blue curve slope change is when the current limit is in the working area..

And... what do you think?....... ..... :lol: ..... ...... 8) ......... :wink: ......

Doc

 

[Almasi]

Now I understand the 18mm axel with over 200Ft/lbs torque