36V 20ah or 48V 15ah Ping

[Boomerpilot]

Newbe with a ebike kit 500 watt DD rear motor and standard controller (believe 20amp). Looking at getting first Lithium battery. Would like to get 30 mile range with pretty much always assisting pedaling. 20 mph top speed is fine. Moderate hills and crushed gravel bike path.

Seems like the watt hours are the same with these two choices, so would think 48 V might be better choice as maybe get more torque up hills.

But don't want to give up range if 36 V 20 ah would definately give more range.

Thanks

 

[wineboyrider]

Watt hours is exactly the same, but a 48v 15ah can let you go faster for shorter trips. I average 28 miles on my 36v 20ah ping and 9c motor no pedaling
With a CA you can dial down the watts/amps you use to make the wh/mi work. I vote for the 48v 15ah though, because of the higher speed capability.

 

[999zip999]

I like 48v you can turn it down with a C.A. as far as the amps for more range. And a three speed switch for hills or ect.

 

[dogman dan]

I'm inclined to disagree based on what you say. 36v will be better, because you will have better throttle controll going slow when when you need that. You won't ever ride so fast you cannot pedal along with it at all. On the rides less than 20 miles, you will be more comfortable holding the throttle full on, than trying to maintian a 22 mph speed holding a throttle half on with 48v.

You'll have as much as 35 mile range if you really slow down, like 15 mph. Same capacity on both, 48, 5 ah pouch cells.

The flip side is, you might find yourself pretty comfy not pedaling, and wish you were zipping along at nearly 30 mph on 48v in about a week.

The three speed switch is a really good addition to the bike. Select the middle setting, and you are riding as if your bike was 36v. In a desperate situation, you might get 40 miles out of the battery in the low setting.

So 48v and a three speed switch is not a bad idea. You can get switches that work with any controller, so you don't have to have a special plug for one on the controller if you get one from Methtek.

48v will be better on the hills, but at the price of using a few more wh by riding up the hill faster. Up to 5% grade, no need for 48v. But if you have 8%-10% then get the 48v.

 

[arkmundi]

36V 20ah A123 AMP20 12S configuration - the exact battery pack I made for myself - see my saga thread for full details including a build manual. Your motor and controller will most likely not draw more than 36V, the current needed - see your motor's specs. The AMP20's have a great draw, up to 5C constant and more in short bursts. I don't believe Pings are made from the A123 nanophosphate process, so I'd expect less C. I'd love to see a full fledged test of my pack against an equivalent Ping.

 

[Jason27]

The biggest downside of ping and lifepo4 is that they are heavy.

 

[dogman dan]

Not really that much heavier. 36v 20 ah ping about 15 pounds. 36v 20 ah turnigy, about 12 pounds. 20% heavier more or less. But get into canned cells and the weight of cans really adds up fast. A 36v 20ah 18650 cell pack weighs 20 pounds.

12 pounds or 15 pounds makes little difference, but double the size of the pack, and I'll take 24 pounds over 30 any day. The bigger the pack, the more it makes a big difference to carry lipo.

Works the same way on the other end of the scale. 36v 5 ah only weighs 3 pounds. So if you only need 5 ah, it's a no brainer. 5 ah of lifepo4 may not run a 20 amp controller, but 20c lipo will run a 40 amp controller.

 

[Velocipede]

For me (700c wheels and 9 cont motor), it was
36V = 40 km/h
48V = 50 km/h

The get the speed with 48V, I was always pulling 20 amps continuous.
With the 36V, if I remember correctly, it was like 13 amps.

So, yes, you will loose a lot of range with the 48V. But I did upgrade quite fast to get the speed.

One thing to consider, Pings are happy at no more than 1C. If you pull 20 amps out of your 15AH pack, you may reduce it's life.

At the end, I was riding 48V 20AH for 40km range full throttle.

 

[wesnewell]

The biggest downside of ping and lifepo4 is that they are heavy.

I don't consider that much of a downside. What I don't like about them is
1) Ping and others are 1C cells capable of 2C with shortened life cycle.
2) Compared to rc lipo, they are a lot bigger. 5ah of 12s rc lipo is 3lbs, will fit in your pocket, and support up to 100A with cheap 20C lipo.
3) Not easily reconfigurable. Impossible for most because of BMS and construction method.
4) A nightmare if you have to replace a cell, BMS, or work on them.

 

[dogman dan]

All true.

The weight is not that big a difference, but volume bigger can make a huge difference in where you can carry it.

If you don't need the long range, you have to carry a lot more battery with 1c cells. Much nicer to carry a small battery if your ride is only 5 miles.

Definiely hard to reconfigure, like run 36v one day, 50v the next.

Repairs to a ping, or simiar lifepo4 are a nightmare. Ping needs to make the packs more modular, so replacing just a 12v section would be easier. Balance taps would be nice, making better cell monitoring easy.

But if you don't need more than 15 amps, what it takes to go 20-25 mph, and you do need 20 mile range, and you do charge twice a day, a pingbattery still works very very well. Usually the only repairs needed are replacing a plug to the charger.

 

[arkmundi]

The get the speed with 48V, I was always pulling 20 amps continuous. With the 36V, if I remember correctly, it was like 13 amps.

That's not my experience. I've got a 36V 12S A123 AMP20 for a Heinzmann 500 Watt motor and a Watt's Up meter telling me its max amps is 31A. The motor/controller is 20amps continuous, but up to 33amps max. That burst speed happens frequently and the battery delivers! Amazing!

 

[999zip999]

We now know that Arkmundi works for A123 usa.

 

[Velocipede]

What I'm saying is that to maintain my top speed of about 40km/h (25mph top speed) with 36V I needed about 13 amps.
Giving an approximative range of 60 kilometers (37 miles) for a 20AH pack.

The burst amps are totally irrelevant to calculate range or speed of a battery pack.
To get more range, the less amps the better. If you pedal to help your motor, the amps drop, thus increasing range.

About the crushed gravel, I go slower on them as I don't feel comfortable at those kind of speeds with no suspension. All my numbers are for pavement.

To sum it up (for my particular set-up):
36V20Ah = 25 mph top speed, 37 miles range.
48V15Ah = 30 mph top speed, 20 miles range.

 

[999zip999]

At what amps ?

 

[Velocipede]

As I said in my previous posts, to maintain 30mph I need the full 20 amps continuous at 48 volts.
For the 25 mph at 36volts it was less, around 13 amps continuous to maintain top speed. Off course depending on wind, slope and pedaling.

 

[999zip999]

I do miss my Ping a great plug and play battery. It can run at 22 amps for the 15ah.

 

[wineboyrider]

All true.

The weight is not that big a difference, but volume bigger can make a huge difference in where you can carry it.

If you don't need the long range, you have to carry a lot more battery with 1c cells. Much nicer to carry a small battery if your ride is only 5 miles.

Definiely hard to reconfigure, like run 36v one day, 50v the next.

Repairs to a ping, or simiar lifepo4 are a nightmare. Ping needs to make the packs more modular, so replacing just a 12v section would be easier. Balance taps would be nice, making better cell monitoring easy.

But if you don't need more than 15 amps, what it takes to go 20-25 mph, and you do need 20 mile range, and you do charge twice a day, a pingbattery still works very very well. Usually the only repairs needed are replacing a plug to the charger.

Yes, but run it within it's 1c delivery rate on a modest commuting bicycle and you have one reliable commuting battery.

 

[arkmundi]

36V 20ah A123 AMP20 12S configuration - the exact battery pack I made for myself..

FYI, just bought a second set of cells from Victpower for $16.50 a piece, half-tab of course.

 

[arkmundi]

We now know that Arkmundi works for A123 usa.

Let me disavow that. Mind you, I'd love to have an income from this company. Unfortunately, they've never shown a profit, are about to be delisted, are laying off workers left & right, and are now owned by China,inc. Why would I? No, just smart, retired and did my R&D to find the best battery I could because I drive an ebike now. So, you work for Ping, huh and need to smack around on the forum? Or what?

 

[mikebikerad]

get a 48 volt batt hands down. you will get bored of 36 volts and if you want to go the distance get a three speed switch.

 

[arkmundi]

get a 48 volt batt hands down. you will get bored of 36 volts and if you want to go the distance get a three speed switch.

boring is good, so noooooo. Check out the lower than 20mph/750watt criteria for ebike versus moped thread stuff. Be safe, please, and stay under the radar & legal.

 

[Jason27]

Arkmundi who do you contact if your battery ever has issues? How is victpowers customer service?

 

[arkmundi]

Arkmundi who do you contact if your battery ever has issues? How is victpowers customer service?

I try to contact my brain and make a connection with its customer service, my hands. I often have to be patient - it can take weeks for the customer service to catch up. Yea, really, I own the pack 100% and did my purchase with the understanding that I'd have to rely on myself (and various genius on this forum). There's no way to get li-ion product back to Victpower. Primarly because of shipping costs. But also the new rules on shipping li-ion batteries, even cells. So if you're going this route, be advised you doing it without any guaratee or warranty from a vendor. That said, Victpower has built a good reputation for shipping genuine A123, more-or-less new, though worren from salvage, cells.

I'm hoping to get my 2000 charge cycles from this pack. I figure that when that happens in the roughly 5-10 years it will take, that there will be further advances in li-ion or other battery chemistries. When I buy or make a new pack, it'd be with the then best available. I'm hoping that A123 will make it as a company and their new EXT start/stop battery will be readily available for purchase retail, and locally.

 

[tomzgreat]

You will get bored silly with a 36v Battery.

If you need to get the 30 Miles Distance just keep your speed to the 20MPh with the 48v 15ah and it
should do 30 Miles without issue.

Pedal to the metal at 27-30mph I get around 20 Miles on my Ping 48v 15ah