3kw vs 6kw QS Motor

FlipDowney

10 mW
Joined
Mar 8, 2023
Messages
29
Location
Lewiston Idaho/ Clarkston Washington
I know some folk dont like either but I am wondering what the difference would be with a setup only changing these two motors wattages. Say the rig i am using 72v 45ah w 150a controller. I am wondering if lower amps would push the 3kw motor harder than a 6kw. I was thinking its possible that with a lower wattage motor one could run lower amps and get what would seem like more power? I am beginning to understand i do not understand how these motors really work.
 
I recommend experimenting wiht the ebikes.ca motor simulator to learn the relationships between battery, controller, motor, load, throttle input, and riding conditions.

What matters first is what your load is, meaning the power required to do a job. You need to know that to begin picking appropriate parts. To find out the power required, you need to define the job it all needs to do, and the condtions it has to do that job under.

If you don't know the required power level, at least a guesstimate, it can end up like using a headphone amp to drive a 4x12 cab, or a 5000w head to drive earbuds. Either you don't have enough power to do the job, or you have spent a bunch of money unnecessarily on something too big to be practical to carry around. ;)


Once you know the required power, you can see if it is needed all the time, or only momentarily and sporadically. The former means you need a motor actually capable of that power continuously, so it doesn't overheat and fail. The lattter means you can probably use a smaller lighter cheaper motor that can continuously handle the normal power levels you need, and deal with the bursts of higher power required sporadically.

The controller has to be able to do the worst-case power, regardless, as does the battery. The battery is the source of all the power, so it is the most critical part of the system. It also ages over time and becomes less capable, which is not generally true of the controller/motor, so using a battery that is at least half-again as capable as you need ensures it will still do what you want later on as it has aged.
 
I am in the process of figuring out which motor to use in place of mine in the simulator. Largest ive found is 1000w so far, such a tedious thing to do in taking breaks. Or I need to learn what the parameters are to enter a custom motor to use the simulator. But that was exactly my thoughts as well, they just dont have any of the qs motors in their selection.
 
To learn the relationships you can use any of the existing parts, you don't need to simulate your actual setup. ;)

Just change different things to see how each one affects the results you get, and you'll begin to see what changes to a system will give the results you are after.

If you prefer starting with something closer to yours, there is a Cromotor in there (if you Show All) that can do a fair bit of power (at least 2kw, IIRC) , and the 450x MXUS motors that can do 3kW in a very small >=20" wheel under typical ebike conditions.

Then you can look up parameters for motors similar to yours and use those in the custom fields to more closely simulate your existing motor and see what you can do with it. Note that except for a limited pre-entered selection of motors in the simulator, none of them have thermal modelling so they wont' give valid overheat info.
 
Ive been using the mxus 4505 statoraid motor option. The thing ive found odd so far is that the speed is rather low compared to what i can achieve. Besides that I'm just not familiar enough with it yet at all. I am not certain at all how to determine if any given setting is burning up the motor or anything else based on the SIM. But i think i high red curve must be good if one likes torque.
 
Well, the point of using the simulator right now is that (as I thought I'd understood from your first post up there) you wanted to know the relationships between different things. For that you don't really need to worry about overheating or matching it to what you have. You just setup a system, specify conditions like what you will encounter, and see how the system performs. Then change different things in the components to see how that affects the results, such as different winds of motors, or controllers with more or less current available, or batteries with higher or lower voltages, etc. You can also try different riding conditions with the setups to see how they respond, and then this can help you apply that to the setup you already have or want to get to know whether you'll need a bigger controller or a faster motor or a higher voltage battery or all three, etc.

Once you begin to see how the interactions work, then you can setup simulations of something resembling your proposed setup and conditions to see if it will do the job you need it to.

You can skip the relationship learning if you like and go right to the last part, if you don't want to learn how it works first, but it can be helpful. :)

Regarding the speed (or any other result) in teh sim, since you can't really directly simulate everything about a specific setup (unless the parts are already modelled and listed there), it's not always completely perfect. The way a specific motor in the sim is setup isn't shown anywhere on screen, so it's difficult to know if it's characteristics are really matching a motor you have, if theyr'e not the same motor. Part of it is the winding, the air gap, the magnet strength, stator lamination design, etc. Another part is how the controller commutates the motor and the phase current it supplies to it, and another part is actual voltage applied (including battery sag under load), as well as actual wheel size and any gearing between motor and wheel (none with a DD hubmotor in the wheel). Road conditions, rolling resistance, winds, etc., all contribute as well, though not as much as the others in most cases.

Thermal results that aren't modelled (no "overheat in" field) mean you can guess based on the efficiency field of the output / motor section below the chart. If the efficiency is low, then the difference in watts between the battery load and the motor load is being created as heat inside the motor. Any of that heat the motor can't get rid of will stay inside, and increase it's temperature over time, and it will overheat at some point. (this is what the thermal modelling part does automatically based on testing done for specific motors....for motors without it you have to guesstimate what the point is where heat buildup is faster than heat exchange).

But it is good for learning the relationships, and for guesstimating how things will perform. If you're using only parts already modelled in it, it's typically pretty close, sometimes nearly exact, in comparison to the real world results.
 
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Absolutely. That is what ive been doing with the SIM. I also tried to get as close to the setup i have as well. I was using a phone at first so i wasnt seeing the Watts on the right. As long as i know the watts i know im not burning up the motor at least. From running the SIM I have a question about Sabvoton controller operations. In the app for the sab it has rated phase current along with max phase and protected phase. I am wondering if max phase current is ever reached without using a boost switch. Rated phase cant be set above 150a but max can be set to 350a. The actual confusing part is mid throttle phase current can ve set above 150a so I am assuming max phase amps are reached in normal operation without the boost function.
 
I odn't know exactly how the sabvoton itself works (and it's probably different with different models and firmware versions), but generally when you have a high enough load on a system it should draw the max avialable current from the controller (assuming sufficient throttle).

I suspect rated for those controlelrs means continuous, and max is peak for some unspecified time (a few seconds, probably). I would also guess boost probably means to override limits for some short unspecified time.

Been a while since I read thru any of them, but the various sabvoton threads probably have more specific info about specific model and app / setup program versions and what people have found their terminology means.
 
I have most of its functions verified. Still working on understanding its temp controls and the "Hard start" function besides this phase amp question im working on. What blows my mind is that no one at all knows what the function "Hard Start" does, there is no info anywhere at all about it. Not even the sabvoton user manuals discuss it. I'm guessing it overides the boost switch and gives the setting otherwise reserved for boost right away... but i cant tell that it does that and neither can another cat on this forum when he tries to test it out. I do believe max phase is not reserved for boost functions and is available through normal operation. I was able to take the hill on my commute no issues at all at 85A battery 150a rated phase and 213A max phase with the mid throttle phase amps set to 150a. Idk if that is a good idea having half throttle be the same at the rated phase current but I rode all day and dialed in the throttle timing with no issues.
 
well, soft start has been traditionally used to mean the controller responds to throttle input with some form of ramping up.

would be logical to assume ;) that hard start means it doesn't do that, but instead direclty follows the throttle command, so if you slam on full throttle you get full motor power at that instant, and not delayed by a ramp up from previous power level to the new one.

regarding safe max phase, presumably the controller itself will only provide the max (burst) phase amps for the amount of time it is safe for the controller itself to do so (it has no idea what's safe for the motor, though). then it would back off automatically to the rated (continuous) level. if it doesn't, then the max amps can't be a peak / momentary safe limit setting, because such a limitation is a hardware thing--it can only take so much power for so long before somethng overheats and fails.
 
Im not certain yet. Regardless of hard start or not one can change the throttle timing to create a soft start. This one is set to 333 milliseconds. And the option to select hard start is in the menu with the boost, you can select which type of boost or hard start. The throttle menu you can change voltage current and timing for accel and decel. I havent noticed a difference in the throttle whether hard start is selected or not. Eventually i will verify what it does.
 
I know some folk dont like either but I am wondering what the difference would be with a setup only changing these two motors wattages. Say the rig i am using 72v 45ah w 150a controller. I am wondering if lower amps would push the 3kw motor harder than a 6kw. I was thinking its possible that with a lower wattage motor one could run lower amps and get what would seem like more power? I am beginning to understand i do not understand how these motors really work.
The basic rule is there's no free lunch - in the way that if the load is 6000W then it takes 6000w effective power plus losses to perform the task. Anything less than that (like 3000w power) won't do it.

Maybe you're confusing power with torque? A 3000w motor might create more torque than a 6000W motor - at the same current - depending on which winding they have.
 
I think i just didnt know how to say what i was thinking. I was thinking with a 3kw load I could power it more efficiently with this battery than the 6kw. This battery can supply the 3kw easily but the 6kw not for nearly as long.
 
That’s actually a good but double sided question:
A small motor will have it’s peak efficiency at lower load so if load is hitting that peak then yes a 3kW motor can be better
But
The peak efficiency is normally at quite low load so if load is near 3kW then the 6kW motor will have higher efficiency.

It doesn’t have so much with the battery to do in this regard.
 
Looking at the motor simulator it seems the efficiency is highest at top speed. Something to keep in mind. I dont have my mind wrapped around it well enough yet. I also am not certain where in the curve the least amount of battery amps vs phase amps are being used. I think it may be the red curve so going half of the top speed would be using the battery power the most while going 33% or 66 plus % it would be primarily using phase amps? Or maybe they run parallel. Im not certain yet. Im trying to understand all the aspects of getting the most distance from the battery.
 
If you prefer starting with something closer to yours, there is a Cromotor in there (if you Show All) that can do a fair bit of power (at least 2kw, IIRC) , and the
Cromotor is described as a " 6kW contin" motor on the website. 50H motor. Internally, it is very similar if not identical to the QS205 50H motor, under rated at 3kW. The windings available for the Cro are a little different than the QS but essentially they are the same motor.
 
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