48 mpg in the 2013 Kia Forte!

[Dauntless]

Actually I was the one talking about it, saying it's a nonstarter with the aerodynamic misconceptions.

I don't know what's going on in Houston, a contest, maybe a school. It's the HOUSTON Moon Walker, actually. But there's a number of 3D imagines for cars that seem to have nothing else going on but push a single theme. The Houston Power Commuter is touted as a 12 volt (Yeah, we all know THAT'S gonna happen) 3D printed roaderster where you come up with your own accessories. Including a gooseneck trailer.

 

[swbluto]

Actually I was the one talking about it, saying it's a nonstarter with the aerodynamic misconceptions.

But it's not necessarily this particular design, but the paradigm behind it; the noetic paragon from which all future derivatives will be based; the sui-generis category-creating idea.

As for non-starters, aerodynamics, schmero-dynamics. Those problems can be easily engineered away.

That other car you posted looks cool, yes, but not quite approaching the energy perfection as the Houston Moon Walker.

 

[swbluto]

Here's another "car" that has the same aerodynamic idea. Called the acabion, gets 1000 mpg at 60mph, in hybrid form.

Clearly, aerodynamics can be tweaked. Looks like he solved the air-lifting problem with a spoiler.

 

[Dauntless]

Do you REALLY think this Australian designer expects to see his futuristic camping vehicle on the road by 2025?

When you look at concept cars, no, it's not about a paradigm shift or the cars being built some day. If you look close at some of them you see there's NO WAY a human could fit, etc. If you're in college wishing to become a transportation designer, DESIGN AWAY! Learn who 'Hugo AGO GO' was, ("One to foresee for many") then join the 'Gernsback Continuum.' In fact novelist William Gibson 'Johnny Neumonic', 'Neuromancer') wrote a short story by that name where people were transported to an alternate dimension where those gaudy visions of the future CAME TRUE!

Let's say you finished school in a quality program that made you produce quite the body of work that these experts could look at. If a certain Detroit Auto Manufacturer (Who shall remain nameless because some people would say I'm slandering them) liked what they saw they would whisk you off on an all expense paid "Vacation" in their own design school, where you'd package design documents, sketches, "Deliverables,' etc. into some of the most RIDICULOUS proposals this world has seen since, well, the LAST class they held. You're expected to just design something unlike anything that exists, do not feel constrained by the need to make it buildable, such as fitting into the current highway lanes. They don't want you to redesign what's out there, they want you to fully design something NEW. Such as a car that uses the future technology to drive itself while the drivers' swiveling seat turns to face the conference table in the back seat, with the passengers lined up on both sides holding a meeting. That thing looked to be 12 feet wide and 40 feet long. So the guy that came up with that got a job, right? THERE is your 'Noetic Paragon.' (So now you've attended Oxford?)

It's amazing to watch the company's own video about it, you're thinking 'Are these people NUTS?' Talk about a lack of self awareness when they made it. Ah well, the people they hire ARE just going to redesign what already exists. Let them have fun in school. One thing you can be sure about- When you design something that just can't be built, NOONE will steal your ideas. Except maybe another student trying to get a job.

As for Hugo AGO GO, for almost 40 years no one would call the World Science Fiction Conventions' 'Science Fiction Achievement Awards' by their proper name. So in 1991 they gave in and officially renamed them after the nickname so many knew them as: The Hugo Awards!

Theheheee fiiiiirst Noooooet
The accountants did say,
was to certain designers in fields where they play,
In fiiiiieeeelds whereeee they
play nothing abstemious,
just Trac ta ri an gaaaaames that arrrre so deep.

Oriel, Oriel,
Orrrrriiiiieeeeeelllll,
Reeeepeating what's always gone well.

What? You expect me to call them 'Puseyites?'

http://www.gernsback.com/

 

[swbluto]

Do you REALLY think this Australian designer expects to see his futuristic camping vehicle on the road by 2025?

When you look at concept cars, no, it's not about a paradigm shift or the cars being built some day. If you look close at some of them you see there's NO WAY a human could fit, etc. If you're in college wishing to become a transportation designer, DESIGN AWAY! Learn who 'Hugo AGO GO' was, ("One to foresee for many") then join the 'Gernsback Continuum.' In fact novelist William Gibson 'Johnny Neumonic', 'Neuromancer') wrote a short story by that name where people were transported to an alternate dimension where those gaudy visions of the future CAME TRUE!

Let's say you finished school in a quality program that made you produce quite the body of work that these experts could look at. If a certain Detroit Auto Manufacturer (Who shall remain nameless because some people would say I'm slandering them) liked what they saw they would whisk you off on an all expense paid "Vacation" in their own design school, where you'd package design documents, sketches, "Deliverables,' etc. into some of the most RIDICULOUS proposals this world has seen since, well, the LAST class they held. You're expected to just design something unlike anything that exists, do not feel constrained by the need to make it buildable, such as fitting into the current highway lanes. They don't want you to redesign what's out there, they want you to fully design something NEW. Such as a car that uses the future technology to drive itself while the drivers' swiveling seat turns to face the conference table in the back seat, with the passengers lined up on both sides holding a meeting. That thing looked to be 12 feet wide and 40 feet long. So the guy that came up with that got a job, right? THERE is your 'Noetic Paragon.' (So now you've attended Oxford?)

It's amazing to watch the company's own video about it, you're thinking 'Are these people NUTS?' Talk about a lack of self awareness when they made it. Ah well, the people they hire ARE just going to redesign what already exists. Let them have fun in school. One thing you can be sure about- When you design something that just can't be built, NOONE will steal your ideas. Except maybe another student trying to get a job.

As for Hugo AGO GO, for almost 40 years no one would call the World Science Fiction Conventions' 'Science Fiction Achievement Awards' by their proper name. So in 1991 they gave in and officially renamed them after the nickname so many knew them as: The Hugo Awards!

Theheheee fiiiiirst Noooooet
The accountants did say,
was to certain designers in fields where they play,
In fiiiiieeeelds whereeee they
play nothing abstemious,
just Trac ta ri an gaaaaames that arrrre so deep.

Oriel, Oriel,
Orrrrriiiiieeeeeelllll,
Reeeepeating what's always gone well.

What? You expect me to call them 'Puseyites?'

http://www.gernsback.com/

You're an entertaining and informative person, but these ideas solve a real problem: How to travel all over a continent without spending a mini-fortune in gas! This isn't just some driven-by-uniqueness exercise in futility, but a real-world solution. Sure, its real-world implementation will take engineering refinement (No doubt some suspension somewhere), but these kinds of cars definitely have a place in the natural order of things. As the environment changes, new specimens emerge to fill their ecological niche.

As for preference, I'd highly prefer something like the Acabion in the style of the Houston Moon Walker over something like the Aptera. It'd get excellent energy efficiency and it'd look damn good while doing so.

 

[swbluto]

Let's analyze the daily expense in travel, shall we?

Gas = 14 hours of driving per day @ 30 mpg @ 75 mph @ $4.00/gallon = (14*75/30)*4 = $140. (God forbid if you're driving an SUV, Van, Truck or minivan.)
Hotel room = $40. (Or camping, $10, assuming you don't camp at those ripoff KOAs)
Food = $5.

Yeah, there's a whole lot of fat that needs cutting. Koch, the oil refinery guy, ain't getting richer than everybody in NYC for nothing.

 

[Dauntless]

. . . .but these ideas solve a real problem

No they don't. They are fiction. Like "Mr. Fusion" in 'Back to the Future.' It seems so easy in the movies, but then in real life. . . .

This isn't just some driven-by-uniqueness exercise in futility. . .

Yes it is.

. . . . but a real-world solution.

No it isn't.

. . . .No doubt some suspension somewhere. . . .

The correct term is 'Suspension of Disbelief.' Some of them go beyond our ability to do that, we just say 'No way.' The correct term for that is "The Horrible Fiction."

I don't even know what teacher is in that office, but he/she is in Natural Sciences and has a little something hanging on his/her board to the effect of:

"Cars run on money and make you fat.
Bikes run on fat and save you money."

 

[friendly1uk]

Rabbit a Golf?
My 89 1.8 GTI did 50mpg limping between stations at 50mph continuous. The VW Polo Bluemotion did 75mpg in independant tests.
The twin turbo jaguar that top gear drove a good few hundred miles did 57mpg. (about 800 miles)

48mpg is acceptable from a cheap modern car.

 

[Caliban]

Honda Civic 2.2 turbo diesel. I treat it reasonably gently, drive according to best practice etc and can get just over 50 mpg (uk gallons). My wife likes to drive it like she stole it, always either on the throttle or the brakes, prefers 4th gear to 6th (better throttle response she says). Speed limits - like the laws of physics - have no relevance or meaning to her but she always, but always gets better fuel consumption. Life's not fair

 

[Dauntless]

Rabbit a Golf?

48mpg is acceptable from a cheap modern car.

Pretty much. Can't say I know what minor packaging differences there might have been, the original Rabbit was a Golf in other parts of the world, but I'm thinking the Golf name did wind up here at the time.

 

[grindz145]

Like Craig Vetter mentioned in my interview with him about his Electric Streamlining, the problem with motorcycles isn't necessarily aerodynamics, although that can play a factor. The biggest problem is the enormous, performance-oriented engines we stuff in them, rather than building really nice efficient motors. The Ninja300 and CBR250r are getting north of 100mpg now, with plenty of riding capacity now. It's unfortunately a market issue when it comes to motorcycling. Electric motorcycles will fix that. You can still get all the performance out of the bike, and also remain very efficient.

 

[swbluto]

Like Craig Vetter mentioned in my interview with him about his Electric Streamlining, the problem with motorcycles isn't necessarily aerodynamics, although that can play a factor. The biggest problem is the enormous, performance-oriented engines we stuff in them, rather than building really nice efficient motors. The Ninja300 and CBR250r are getting north of 100mpg now, with plenty of riding capacity now. It's unfortunately a market issue when it comes to motorcycling. Electric motorcycles will fix that. You can still get all the performance out of the bike, and also remain very efficient.

Yep, that's why electric motors are so much better, because they're usually really efficient no matter how much power they're producing unlike gasoline engines. Gasoline engines, on the other hand, are most energy efficient at their highest power level which is so much higher than traveling at a constant speed with American cars, usually, due to their performance-oriented engines, like you say.

 

[swbluto]

Taking hints from tie-fighters and Acabion, I present to all the masterpiece!

Could use some artistic upgrades and a beautified version of the above, but that's the basic idea. Has the stability of 4 wheels and streamlined to the extreme with an absolutely minimized frontal area. Could be designed for comfort and could be designed to mount a rack, should one want to haul something (Would take a hit energy-efficiency wise, however. Read: fuel costs.).

Could be powered using hub motors and batteries could be stuffed in the interstitial space between each set of wheels. Two regular 2-3kw ebike wheels could probably power this at a steady 70 mph. Maybe even 80? 90?

For mirrors, I'd use video cameras and then use a microcontroller to stitch together the pictures to a create a panoramic view of ones surroundings. (Might as well be part of the vehicle's onboard PC)

Could use a dimpled surface, like a golf ball - it's shown to reduce air resistance by something like 10-15%, which is why golf balls use it.

 

[swbluto]

Like Craig Vetter mentioned in my interview with him about his Electric Streamlining, the problem with motorcycles isn't necessarily aerodynamics, although that can play a factor. The biggest problem is the enormous, performance-oriented engines we stuff in them, rather than building really nice efficient motors. The Ninja300 and CBR250r are getting north of 100mpg now, with plenty of riding capacity now. It's unfortunately a market issue when it comes to motorcycling. Electric motorcycles will fix that. You can still get all the performance out of the bike, and also remain very efficient.

Talking about craig-vetter, I'm thinking I might go the Craig Vetter direction for implementing my ideas. Would really like to find a feet-forward motorcycle, however, to reduce the frontal area (Essentially a recumbent). Uprights take up too much frontal area, and to reduce it requires a pretty uncomfortable riding position for long distance journies.

I'm fundamentally opposed to traveling >20-30mph on two wheels, however; seems to entail too much fatality and injury risk. It just seems like it's probably the easiest and most financially viable direction to go by several orders of magnitude to achieve extreme fuel economy.

 

[swbluto]

[youtube]BEsmqK4ijgs[/youtube]

This is certainly an interesting vehicle. Looks to have aerodynamic promise compared to a car, though it's rated at a piddly 55 mpg. Seems a little *too* spacious inside the cabin, if you ask me. Could also shed the way-too-powerful engine. Height could be lowered and the rider more reclined.

Seems they're selling used nowadays around the $10k-$20k range, just about what they cost new back during 1985-1990.

Not sure how they can claim ten times less drag than a motorcycle, but yet the mpg is only marginally better than one.

 

[Hillhater]

... Two regular 2-3kw ebike wheels could probably power this at a steady 70 mph. Maybe even 80? 90?.

Possibly, if you got the aero really good,..but only on the level, once you get to any kind of an incline you will need much more power !

 

[Dauntless]

Concept cars that will never be built vs. failed designs of the past. To paraphrase Twain, Eienstein, Lincoln, plus countless others who are doubtful to have actually said it:

Better to remain unbuilt and be thought a bad design,
than to be built and remove all doubt.

But since it's a Kia thread, let's see a Kia vision of the FUTURE. Not exactly on its' way to being built, of course.

Of course this does remind me of the old Lola T70 of the mid-late 60's.

It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it.
-Maurice Switzer
“Mrs. Goose, Her Book”

 

[Hillhater]

Obviously Kia doesnt have a very active imagination.
that could easily be a photo of any one of hundreds of sports racers currently in use !

 

[Dauntless]

Obviously Kia doesnt have a very active imagination.
that could easily be a photo of any one of hundreds of sports racers currently in use !

Well then, maybe that means they WILL build it. That is the future of the automobile, the whole "that could easily be a photo of any one of hundreds of sports racers currently in use" thing. That's what it takes to come to market.

48mpg. Wish my Mustang did that. I guess it peaks about 30mpg. To design for 48mpg you have to design for the engine generating about 40 continuous liquid cooled horsepower to use just 1.2 gallons over the course of an hour. Or 24 air cooled horses. But they really only work on what the body will look like.

As Kia comes up with their car, they're pitting this idea of high gas mileage against the marketing departments' expectations. There's not that many in the public saying that WANT a Humvee, it's just that's what marketing wants to sell.

But you don't really think there's anyone other than a guy with a 3D program working on this rescue vehicle of the future, do you? http://www.tuvie.com/

I liked it better when it was called ---THUNDERBIRD 2! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_mBUaPsX6o

 

[swbluto]

I don't really care if something 'comes to market' -- the whole zeitgeist of Endless Sphere is just that, building something great that's not on the market. I mean, that'd be cool if it were as that'd imply it'd be less costly than building it myself (For a car, anyways, in terms of time and materials), but it can be entirely practical yet not come to market simply because the average consumer likes the styling of 'regular cars'. Anyway, the entire industry around mass consumption is just that, "convention", and that's pretty slow to change. Obviously, you're not going to get the best-of-the-absolute-best by being constrained to fundamentally problematic conventions.

The first generation Honda Insight was getting close to perfection, as much as you can in a conventional package, however...

The VW XL1 looks like it's getting as close as possible though not economically optimal, cradle to grave, with a $100,000 price tag.

 

[Hillhater]

I sure hope Kia DONT build anything like that design..not for me anyway !
I need something with more than one seat, at least a little suspension, able to ride over speed humps, tyres that dont cost $1k each, some ability to keep me dry in the rain and warm in the cold, and small enough to park or fit in a garage !!
These CGI designers need a little real world experience !

 

[swbluto]

What if we created a Kamm-back shell out of advanced plastics and adapted it to one of those fuel-efficient (low hp) small cars on the back?

A plastic shell like this:
[youtube]krCHwg3IeDo[/youtube]

Small fuel efficient car like this with a small engine (55hp):

And then we covered the rear wheels and ripped out the mirrors and put them inside the car (Or install video cams), sealed over all the cracks/gaps with tape, installed low rolling resistance tires and pumped up to high psi, etc... (Make it more aerodynamic and have less rolling resistance.)

Seems like possibly one way to achieve really high mpg, economically!

Here's another example of creating a shell out of advanced plastics:

"DeLaSalle School students build super-efficient electric car that gets 307 mpg"
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/08/1...dents-build-super-efficient-electric-car-tha/

A team of students taking part in the Automobile Design Studio at Kansas City's DeLaSalle School have put together an electric car they think could be the most efficient in the world. Testing on the 7.7 mile oval of Bridgestone's Texas Proving Ground have given them a number that the Automotive X-Prize participants would be jealous of – 307 miles per gallon equivalent.

The students started with a 2000 Lola Indy Car chassis and, with the help of instructor Steve Rees and other mentors, developed an electric drivetrain, covered the racer in a clear shell and outfitted it with a set of low rolling resistance Bridgestone Ecopia EP100 tires. While we can't say whether it is the most efficient electric ever built, the Guinness Book of Records folks have been asked to weigh in on the matter. Hit the jump for a pair of videos discussing the project and showing it being put together and tested. Thanks to everyone who sent this in.

There's another guy in Seattle who's developing a indy-based car that gets 125 mpg with a gasoline engine and selling it for $25,000. Can't seem to find the website...

 

[swbluto]

Oh, pretty cool, this guy got 118 mpg with his aero mods to a honda crx hf. Seems like the crx hf's tail-end is already aero-optimized.

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/modified-honda-crx-hf-wins-fuel-economy-competition-with-118-mpg.html

Here's a clear image of the crx hf's caudal regions, with the kammback styling.

These cars seem to be pretty rare online... (The 1984-1986 1.3L version and the 1.5L HF version)

Let's see... what could I do with 100mpg...

Let's take a 12,000 mile trip.

30mpg car:
(12000/30)*4.00 = $1600

100mpg car:
(12000/100)*4.00 = $480

Nice.

 

[Dauntless]

I sure hope Kia DONT build anything like that design..not for me anyway !
I need something with more than one seat, at least a little suspension, able to ride over speed humps, tyres that dont cost $1k each, some ability to keep me dry in the rain and warm in the cold, and small enough to park or fit in a garage !!
These CGI designers need a little real world experience !

That is a tandem two seater, but otherwise. . . .

But when you see these cars, they're empty suits. There's nothing inside, even in theory. It's just a body.

Didn't used to be that way. Ever hear of the Cadillac Futura of the mid 50's? You've definitely seen it, a decade after Cadillac was done showing off that particular 'Car of the Future' it became the Batmobile for the 1960's 'Batman' TV series. Yeah, a concept car that really was a car. Imagine that.

Yeah, I don't think Advanced Plastics made the body for that Champcar 2000 Lola chassis the students electricified, I'm pretty sure that's plain old fashioned polycarbonate that they maybe thermoformed. I doubt it's PET-E because that stuff doesn't want to stay clear. I've heard it suggested that it's just shrinkwrap, but I doubt that would endure driving. The GM Saturn's were made from a polycarbonate much the life of the company, if not all of it. Only one I could say wouldn't be polycarbonate would be the Sky, which was the Pontiac Solstice rebranded.

[youtube]Okca_W0sfhk[/youtube]

 

[swbluto]

Here it is! The 100mpg racecar.

[youtube]9c_XWlVwdTc[/youtube]

Here's a future concept image.