500w Cyclone Kit drains heaps of power! NO BMS!

[dazzassj6]

hey guys, i just recently installed my 500w cyclone motor kit. i equipped it with a "24 volts 20AH 13C 260Amp SUPER DISCHARGE BATTERY SYSTEMS" " 50-100km per charge"

Its one of these ones

I just dont get it.

Problem 1:

when i bought the kit, they said the 500w motor is a 2500rpm reduced to 300rpm motor. I heard its higher in torque so im guessing thats what caused this to have a lower top speed. However i noticed it doesnt have much climbing ability either because it doesnt have a high RPM it goes very slow on a larger gear and wen on a smaller gear it has very little climbing ability. So its shit climbing hills.

I rode it on flats from A to B (less than 5 km) and noticed that the battery aswell as the motor is very HOT. I read somewhere here that the motor is usually only warm.

Problem 2:

In this trip less than 5 kilometers, the battery died on the way home!!!! IT was a fully charged battery when i started the trip. I cant believe this high quality 20ah lifepo4 battery can only last this long. I also noticed that when i charge this battery the charge would only take like 2 hours or so to fully charge it from 0% to 100% as indicated on the charger. It is a 5 amp charger. After its 100% the charger shuts off into green light.


So what could be that is making this motor drawing this much power to make it this hot? My motor is a little misaligned from the chain wheel and sometimes the chain jumps from the motor. Oh and the freewheel on the motor can come off is this normal? it tends to slightly move up because of the misalignment but im scared it might fall off, dunno what i should to secure it. Any clues on this one ??

thanks in advance guys!

link to photos of the bike here

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6669




UPDATE: Problem lies in the battery. There is no BMS!!!! Just received the new BMS but i dont know how to install it please help!

 

[dogman dan]

The motor too hot would indicate you are using too high a gear. That will suck watts and make heat instead of motion. And also any misalignment or just malfunctioning would be expected to create some unwanted friction. Unfortunately a lot of us expect more than an ebike can deliver, since the sellers tend to exaggerate ranges. Nevertheless, you ought to be getting 15 km, minimum if not more! You may have to ride at a slower speed than you expected to get any range. 24v generally doesn't perform very good on any ebike, especially for climbing a hill. You may need to buy enough cells to make a 36v bike and a controller too, before you are happy.

 

[dogman dan]

Looking at the bike pic's, are you sure that is 20 ah? It doesn't look like 16 cells to me.

 

[Pete]

I am going to assume you are not running a Cycle Analyist or any other means of measuring power usage ? Without some way to measure your actual power consumption it is very hard to really nail down what the problem is.

Being used properly, a Cyclone should only be plesantly warm to the touch. If you cant comfortably hold your hand against it for 30 seconds then there is either a problem with the motor or more likely, the way you are riding it. Being physically small, the Cyclone has a poor heat rejection characteristics so you really need to keep the motor running in it's most efficent RPM range. Without a CA you really are flying blind especially because the Cyclone ccontroller does not amp limmit. As a rule of thumb until you get a CA, run your bike in bottom gear and at WOT. This will let you hear peak RPM. Peak efficency is roughly 80% of peak RPM. Basically, once you hit peak RPM upsift two gears. The RPM you get at that point is the absolute lowest you should let your Cyclone get to.

By your data, you are only getting 10AH out of your pack. I agree with dogman that your pack does not look like a 20AH. How many individual cells make up the pack ?

What are the LED's on the throttle doing just before and after the battery cuts out?

And for info, do not connect 36v to your Cyclone. The internal controller is only rated to 24v and you might let the smoke out.

 

[dazzassj6]

I am going to assume you are not running a Cycle Analyist or any other means of measuring power usage ? Without some way to measure your actual power consumption it is very hard to really nail down what the problem is.

Being used properly, a Cyclone should only be plesantly warm to the touch. If you cant comfortably hold your hand against it for 30 seconds then there is either a problem with the motor or more likely, the way you are riding it. Being physically small, the Cyclone has a poor heat rejection characteristics so you really need to keep the motor running in it's most efficent RPM range. Without a CA you really are flying blind especially because the Cyclone ccontroller does not amp limmit. As a rule of thumb until you get a CA, run your bike in bottom gear and at WOT. This will let you hear peak RPM. Peak efficency is roughly 80% of peak RPM. Basically, once you hit peak RPM upsift two gears. The RPM you get at that point is the absolute lowest you should let your Cyclone get to.

By your data, you are only getting 10AH out of your pack. I agree with dogman that your pack does not look like a 20AH. How many individual cells make up the pack ?

What are the LED's on the throttle doing just before and after the battery cuts out?

And for info, do not connect 36v to your Cyclone. The internal controller is only rated to 24v and you might let the smoke out.

I think theres 8 cylinder cells in the pack. the LED's acts like what it should indicate if a battery runs out. It goes to orange after a while, then after that turns red then if i keep riding a while longer the controller shuts it off meaning no more power.

Well the guy on ebay indicated it was 20ah, so i dont know....But cmon less than 5km for a 10ah battery is like too little!

Yeh i cant hold my hand on the motor for 30 seconds. Maybe 2 seconds?

What is a "WOT" may i ask???

Yeh does anyone own a cyclone motor that has a REDUCED RPM? Before i installed it i tried plugging it in the battery to see how fast the motor spins. It doesnt spin very fast, well it doesnt look like 2500rpm, so yes its around 300rpm which is kinda slow. If anyone knows how to get rid of this 300rpm thing please tell me.

I'm gonna align the motor back tomorow and pump the wheels to the max and see if it will be more efficient.

 

[dogman dan]

Say, this wouldn't be used stuff perhaps? My melted down WE hubmotor sure had reduced rpm's and made heat real good!

8 of those cells is definitely 10 ah.

 

[Freddyflatfoot]

Ok, reduced RPM simply means that the motor is geared down to a RPM suitable for bike usage. You don't want to change this! Anyway, it's fixed.
As for the reason you are only getting <5 k's, more info please!
What speed were you running?
Were you climbing steep hills?
A 20AHr battery pack should give you around 50 km.
Otherwise, here are some things you can check on your pack, after a ride check all the individual cell voltages, they should all be very close to being the same.
It may be that you have a faulty cell?
Also, some packs don't reach full capacity until until they have been charged/discharged several times.
Another consideration is that you may have hit the low voltage cutoff under load, which may not necessarily mean that you have flattened the battery.
Oh, WOT, is Wide Open Throttle.

 

[Pete]

I think theres 8 cylinder cells in the pack. the LED's acts like what it should indicate if a battery runs out. It goes to orange after a while, then after that turns red then if i keep riding a while longer the controller shuts it off meaning no more power.

Once you reach the cutoff point do you get no lights on the throttle, or a flashing red? No lights means it is the Low Voltage Cutoff (LVC) on your BMS tripping. Flashing red LED is the controller LVC. From a practical point if view it does not matter which circuit is tripping (you loose drive either way :? ) But whenever you need to fault find the system it is useful to know the difference.

Well the guy on ebay indicated it was 20ah, so i dont know....But cmon less than 5km for a 10ah battery is like too little!

I think we have pretty much decided your seller has done a dogdy. You might want to chase them for the 'other' 10AH they owe you.
Your range is way off what you should be getting. I achieve about 30km on 10 to 12 AH off a fairly sick battery. I pedal a lot as well, but you should get at least 20km minimum. Don't get too caught up on your lack of range just yet. Not until you get the hang of being in the most appropriate gear ratio and you have put a dozen cycles on your battery.

Yeh i cant hold my hand on the motor for 30 seconds. Maybe 2 seconds?

ok, you are bogging down the motor by trying to run too high a gear. 'Normal' heat is a nice hand warmer in the middle of winter after a long ride with no gloves.

The sort of heat you are feeling equates to about 700 to 1000w current draw. Which the controller can supply but only when the motor is well off it's efficency curve. (low RPM and WOT). How long does it take you to do that 5km, and what gear would you be using if you did not use the motor assist?

Yeh does anyone own a cyclone motor that has a REDUCED RPM? Before i installed it i tried plugging it in the battery to see how fast the motor spins. It doesnt spin very fast, well it doesnt look like 2500rpm, so yes its around 300rpm which is kinda slow. If anyone knows how to get rid of this 300rpm thing please tell me.

This is normal. The motor does peak at around 3600rpm. But then there is the 9.5 : 1 gearbox boltedto the front of the motor. Sorry if this is suck eggs, but don't forget that the motor drives the rear wheel through the same gear train that your legs use. You don't turn your pedals at 1500RPM so neither does the motor. Try crunching the numbers for the gear ratios to get a feel for what you should theoretically expect from your setup. From a practical perspective, if you can manage over 30kph on the flats without pedalling then you are doing pretty well. That last 5 to 8 kph will take a while to wind up to because as the motor becomes electrically more efficent with RPM, the torque falls off. Peak HP is a very different curve to peak efficency.

 

[dazzassj6]

Pete:

the red doesn't flash, it indicates red for a while on the throttle, then wen i keep accelerating it shuts off. So no light. And when i leave it for a while later it turns back on. Probably like 5 second break?

yeh the seller is dodgy, he told me he doesnt know anything cause his not an expert when i told him its a 10ah. Well i dont really care if its not a 20ah, even 10ah would be enough for me. I have fully depleted the battery three times since i got it now, will do a few more and see.

Yeh it seems to take more power wen in high gear, but even in low gear its very slow and it still uses up alot of power. Low gear (1st and 2nd) gets me like 10km/h? I gotta attach my cycle computer to see how fast i am really doing. Because i think its actually doing 20 to 25km/h on flat and 30km/h downhill.

Yeh you are right about the low rpm and WOT. I dont know why its so low in RPM. It takes me about 15mins to do 5km. The gear i would be using when not using the motor assist would be....probably 3rd gear...

Freddyflatfoot:

I was running at 20km/hr or so, hills was there but its not what i call 'steep' hill. No I dont think i had a LVC under load because even with no load after that it indicates that the battery is nearly out.

Pete you're right it must be drawing 700w to 1000w of power.

Hey i dont think this battery has a BMS, im not sure if it has actually. I opened the end without the wires coming out they are cells connected with copper plates with nuts and bolts. Could this be the problem if the batteries doesnt have a BMS?

heres another picture of it. Could the BMS fit in where the wires are? hm....

 

[Pete]

Hey i dont think this battery has a BMS, im not sure if it has actually. I opened the end without the wires coming out they are cells connected with copper plates with nuts and bolts. Could this be the problem if the batteries doesnt have a BMS?

Do any of the charge and discharge wires connect to a circuitboard, or are they all connected directly to the cell terminals ? It is hard to tell from the pic you posted.

If there is no circuit board then you are operating your battery without a BMS. The only thing that helping to protect your battery investment is the LVC circuitry in the motor controller.

This is NOT good.

Before we go down the path of setting up your battery with a BMS, can you please check to see if there is a circuit board fitted ?

 

[Pete]

Pete:
yeh the seller is dodgy, he told me he doesnt know anything cause his not an expert when i told him its a 10ah. Well i dont really care if its not a 20ah, even 10ah would be enough for me. I have fully depleted the battery three times since i got it now, will do a few more and see.

Who was the seller please? A link to one of their active auctions would be really useful. This will help others from getting screwed by a dodgy seller.

Yeh it seems to take more power wen in high gear, but even in low gear its very slow and it still uses up alot of power. Low gear (1st and 2nd) gets me like 10km/h? I gotta attach my cycle computer to see how fast i am really doing.

Yes, you do 8) .
It is really had to get a feeling for how your setup is actually performing if you don't have some sort of instrumentation. Oh, and do make sure you calibrate the speedo to suit your wheel size.

 

[TylerDurden]

You might want to get a voltage reading while riding. I suspect there are bad cells too.

 

[docnjoj]

Luckily those are high quality individual cells that are fairly easy to replace. But Cyclones are a bit more complex systems than hub motors, and U ABSOLUTELY need a BMS. Those cells are 40 something bucks apiece!
otherDoc

 

[dazzassj6]

i got my kit from this seller.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mountain-bike-24-V-electric-motor-kit-Lithium-Iron-Bat_W0QQitemZ320304848141QQihZ011QQcategoryZ98083QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

its $600 with the cyclone kit aswell as the "20AH" LIFEPO4 battery lol I dont get how it can be this cheap. He told me he got it from america...

The box was an american manufacturer called "Full River" which produces batteries i think...

 

[Pete]

its $600 with the cyclone kit aswell as the "20AH" LIFEPO4 battery lol I dont get how it can be this cheap. He told me he got it from america...
The box was an american manufacturer called "Full River" which produces batteries i think...

If it was actually a 20 AH then you would have paid a good price. Being that the battery is actually a 24v10AH, to put it bluntly you got hosed. You can get a similar battery direct from Cyclone for under 400. That is in USD, and does not include freight (about 50 USD)
Or a Ping 24v20Ah for around 380 AUD delivered.

But now you have the battery, lets get it working properly for you. Have you had a chance to check whether the battery is fitted with a BMS ? And do you understand what TylerD meant when he recommended testing cell voltages while riding ?

I still strongly suggest you get yourself a CycleAnalyst if your budget can stretch that far. Or at a pinch, a Doc Wattson. Riding without one is like driving your car without a dashboard, especially with a Cyclone.

 

[Kurt]

Hang on he also got the cyclone ebike kit as well as the battery and charger for $600 usually the cyclone kit alone is about $600 Aust . So I would say its a ok price.
It doesn't look like there is any bms there.

A little bit of testing on that battery and you will know were you stand a $10 multimeater and a $20 bike computer is a good start. at 24v 10ah I would say 15km range should be a target.

 

[Pete]

Hang on he also got the cyclone ebike kit as well as the battery and charger for $600 usually the cyclone kit alone is about $600 Aust . So I would say its a ok price.

Hmm, I misinterpreted that one. I will check out the auction when I get home.

A little bit of testing on that battery and you will know were you stand a $10 multimeater and a $20 bike computer is a good start. at 24v 10ah I would say 15km range should be a target.

I agree that 15km is achievable, as long as the right gear is used at the right time. By intentionally using the wrong gear I could, possibly, drain a healthy 10AH in 5km. But only on a battery that is not fitted with a BMS that protects from over current. The 650w controller does not have over current protection ( at least I have not hit it with my Ping battery) and will take all the amps the battery can deliver and then some. This is why some sort of Ammeter / watt meter is important with a Cyclone setup.

I am not sure about the 500w integrated controller though.

Having said that I suspect there may be at least one sick cell burried in there. We should be able to find it through voltage drop under load. Whether it will be possible to get the cell replaced under warranty is a whole different problem. At least there are alternate sources for the 40138 cells, and they are a hell of alot easier to replace than tabbed pouches in a duct tape pack

 

[dazzassj6]

Hey pete thanks for the advice.

No i havnt checked if there is a BMS on the battery yet, i will its jsut that its wrapped in the original packing and its covered by this cardboard thing so yeh...

However i contacted another buyer which bought the exact kit and battery from the same guy. He told me he can run 15km and the charger will indicate that the battery is still 50% full! so that means its around 30km on 1 charge for that battery! He also told me that the speed he is getting is 25-30km/hr. Which i dont think i am getting.

So maybe i dont think its the BMS problem, its either a bad cell or something like that. I will get a multimeter to check for the cells voltages and see later. I may have gotten a dodgy battery and that guy i dont think he is willing to exchange or do anything about it.

He told me the kit i bought was the last one he has, now his auctioning another one! dammit.

 

[Pete]

When you have your multimeter out, check the voltage across the battery just before it finishes charging.
Then go do a quick lap to the end of your street and back to take the surface charge off the cells then measure individual voltages. This will show up a cell that is completley stuffed. If the voltages are pretty even (within say 0.1 volt) you then need to track down some aligator clip leads. You need to measure the cell voltages while the battery is under load. Simplest way to do that is to find someplace quiet where you can run the motor at a steady speed and throttle setting. This should show up any weak cells in the pack.

You do have a strong case to demand a refund on your battery. It was advertised as 20Ah, which it is not. It is more and more sounding like there are dodgy cells in the pack and the easiest way to fix that is to send them back and get a battery from one of the decent sellers who will also provide after sales support. At the very least I would be demanding the 'other' 10AH's worth of cells that you bought. Hopefully between the two packs you can come up with one decent pack and have a few spare cells left over.

 

[www.recumbents.com]

I have a 500W Cyclone that I am testing on a recumbent bike, and am not too impressed so far. Do they need to be broken in? My 450W Currie cheeseball motor seems to be more efficient and powerful by far. My Cyclone got hot and ran down my 24V 20Ah battery very quickly as well. I was running it at WOT...

I would really like to see one of these big EV companies test and review some of these motors.

-Warren.

 

[Pete]

I have a 500W Cyclone that I am testing on a recumbent bike, and am not too impressed so far. Do they need to be broken in? My 450W Currie cheeseball motor seems to be more efficient and powerful by far. My Cyclone got hot and ran down my 24V 20Ah battery very quickly as well. I was running it at WOT...
-Warren.

Do you have a CA or watts up? There is no point just saying 'it isn't very good' without quantifying what is actually going on. You really need to put up some figures. You could have a motor, battery or driveline problem. It could be your riding technique, Cyclones are quite sensitive to this. Or your expectations may be unrealistic.

Try re-reading the thread, all the advice that has been posted already is valid for your situation also.

 

[mrbill]

I have a 500W Cyclone that I am testing on a recumbent bike, and am not too impressed so far. Do they need to be broken in? My 450W Currie cheeseball motor seems to be more efficient and powerful by far. My Cyclone got hot and ran down my 24V 20Ah battery very quickly as well. I was running it at WOT...

I would really like to see one of these big EV companies test and review some of these motors.

-Warren.

Warren:

The 500W Cyclone shouldn't need much break-in. Make sure you're running the motor at an RPM above its power peak, which is around 150 rpm at the 14t freewheel. If it's turning slower than that under load, you're running below the power peak, and the motor will get hot and waste energy, even at partial throttle.

I recently installed a 500w Cyclone whose controller I had modified to run the motor clockwise (CW) and found I was getting efficiencies (at various power levels, full-throttle) in the low-70% range from just over 200 watts in to almost 800 watts in. This is measuring the "Power In" at the DrainBrain (now CycleAnalyst) and "Power Out" at a PowerTap rear hub, taking multiple samples, since the display jumps around a bit.

http://tinyurl.com/yj6yl8

All of my Cyclone motors have performed well over the last year and a half, helping me up mountain climbs of several thousand feet and many miles. The motos does get hot on a long climb, especially on a hot day, sometimes too hot to touch for more than a few seconds. In spite of this the motor continues to run without complaint, never tripping the thermal breaker, although I am somewhat concerned about long-term durability.

One odd thing I discovered is that the peak current I saw being drawn (on the DrainBrain) was much higher for the CW motor than the counter-clockwise (CCW) motor. CW I've seen almost 70 amps, but CCW I've seen no more than 40 amps, both at 24-25 VDC. The 70A readings must have been short spikes because the highest short-term power reading I've seen on the DrainBrain is just over 900 watts.

 

[www.recumbents.com]

Hi Bill,

Hmm, Interesting. My Cyclone runs in the CW direction. I still have not purchased a drainbrain or other device to monitor the current/voltage. I'll do some more testing with the Cyclone at higher RPM and see if it behaves better. I put a 20T cog on the Cyclone and it's driving a 406mm wheel. Maybe that was too much for it, but it is running through the bike gearing so I'll back off on the top speed.

Thanks again for letting me borrow your TE for a ride in the foothills a few years back.

-Warren.

 

[dazzassj6]

UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!!


I just received a BMS from cyclone for the cyclone battery. As i opened up my 20ah lifepo4 battery it has NO BMS! The wires for charge and discharge goes to the same terminal on the battery !

This BMS they sent me, i do not know how to install, there is no instructions. I'm gonna take some photos to let you guys see.

Apparently some people that got these cyclone batteries didnt have BMS! how strange.

 

[dazzassj6]

My battery has 8 cells.

It is missing a bms. the terminals i suspect are screw on however i dont know which terminal is which as there is 7 possible terminals on it. As well as those two white circuit board connectors

connected by these terminals right now.

Charge and discharge wires to the same terminal!

New BMS i ordered from cyclone

back of the BMS

Notice the number of cells it has. Dont know what it represents

Please help me out which terminal is which. I notice it says P+ and B + . PCH- , PDCH- and B-